Grant for rims system

[Catt22]

So for people that don't use a grant, how do you prevent your pumps from compacting the grain bed on a single tier system? I am going to have a RIMS tube and I fear that without a grant i will compact the grain bed..

IME, the grain bed will gradually and inevitably compact in a mash tun when using a pump. I expect this to happen on my system. It's not a big deal at all. I simply turn off the burner, stop the pump, stir the grain bed thoroughly then resume the circulation or sparge. Usually this happens more than once during the mash. I normally stir the grain bed several times during the mash regardless, so the interruption is not even an inconvenience. IMO, stirring the mash often is beneficial and I would do it whether using a pump or not and with or without a grant. I circulate at a very high flow rate which accelerates the gradual compaction of the grain bed. I've found that you can use a spoon as a probe to locate the top of the submerged grain bed. As you observe the top drop lower you can anticipate the grain bed condition or degree of compaction.

 

[pola0502ds]

Wow,

See thats the thing about brewing. So many people have so many differnet views on what you should or shouldn't do.. From what i've seen and heard, you should never ever stir the grain bed.. So when you stir the grain bed do you vorloft again to get it running clear?

 

[pola0502ds]

Back to the grant, a buddy of mine just came up with a great idea. Use the Hop Rocket from Blichmann as a grant. Mount it so that it's inverted, add a valve, and you have a grant. It's also the perfect size so you can add flow or level sensors. This sensor would kick on or turn off the pump when the level is too high or low. This would double as it's intended purposes.

Anyone ever hear of this or do it? I just wonder because it's mounted inverted, would it still function properly as a hot rocket?

 

[Catt22]

Wow,

See thats the thing about brewing. So many people have so many differnet views on what you should or shouldn't do.. From what i've seen and heard, you should never ever stir the grain bed.. So when you stir the grain bed do you vorloft again to get it running clear?

Well, IMO whomever said to avoid stirring the grain bed doesn't know what he's talking about. Yes, I resume the circulation each time after stirring. The most important stir is the last one. I ramp up to mash out temperature, stop & stir then resume circulation for a short (5-10) minute vorlaugh at a slower flow rate until the wort is running clear again. At that point I begin the slow fly sparge and pump directly from the MT into the kettle. IMO, if you skip the stirring, you likely will have some degree of channeling whether you realize it or not. There is absolutely nothing to fear about stirring the grain bed. After all, it's already been through the mill.

 

[JonW]

So for people that don't use a grant, how do you prevent your pumps from compacting the grain bed on a single tier system? I am going to have a RIMS tube and I fear that without a grant i will compact the grain bed..

Don't fear it. I think compacting the grain bed or this talk of the unknown suction on the grain bed is being blown out of proportion. If you have a decent false bottom and you're not trying to run your pump full open, you likely won't have any (or many) stuck sparges. If you do, do as Catt22 points out - just stir the grain and vorlauf and life goes on. In the last year and a half of using my fly sparge system, I have yet to have a stuck sparge.

 

[organikbrewer]

I would like to step in here and help you guys out. I am a professional Brewer and I have worked on two systems with Grants. The current system which I work on does not have a grant, and I wish it did. I also use a grant for my home brew. There is one piece I haven't seen any one talk about yet that solves the problem with a compact grain bed. It's called a trombone, and works just like the instrument. Basically what you do is, you run a piece of pipe from your mash tun valve vertically up along your Mash tun and then you need a vent on top and then you run the pipe back down. You run this with your valve wide open and allow gravity to control your flow. You adjust the height of the pipe to just under the sparge water level. It takes all the weight off you false bottom and keeps your grain uncompacted. You can use a grant to collect the run off from the trombone which is very helpful, and then pump it back into the mash to recirculate and then send it to the kettle after you get clear wort. Piping a pump to the mash tun does cause compaction and will cause channeling and reduce your efficiency. I usually get 94% of potential extract with my setup. Batch sparging is a bad idea! No brewery in the world does it neither should you, it causes oxidation of tannins and phenols. You should run off very slow, it should take at least an hour to an hour and a half to runoff. Also always adjust the ph of your sparge water to 5.7 and make sure your mash is between 5.2 - 5.4. To make a trombone get a 3/4 inch piece of Copper pipe and then use 1/2 inch with rubber o-rings and a little food grade lube. It seals pretty well with the right o-rings and allows you to slide it up and down. Remember you have to vent the top, or it just creates a siphon. Good luck!

 

[wuertele]

Batch sparging is a bad idea! No brewery in the world does it neither should you, it causes oxidation of tannins and phenols. You should run off very slow, it should take at least an hour to an hour and a half to runoff.

Thanks for the tip about the trombone, I'm going to look into that. If the top of the trombone is below the water level, wouldn't wort come spewing out of the vent?

Do you have any credible references supporting the assertion that batch sparging causes oxidation of tannins and phenols any more than decoction mashing or other procedures that expose the grain to air? This sounds like the mythical HSA theory that seems to have been debunked by homebrewers.

 

[thelorax121]

Anyone have a picture of the trombone? I am having a hard time visualizing it...

 

[kladue]

What the trombone is supposed to do is tie the outlet of the mash tun to the liquid above the malt bed so you pull from both the false bottom and the liquid above the malt to prevent compaction through excessive suction pressure. In a maximum extraction for profit system this works well in preventing compaction when recirculating. In a home brew sized recirculating system with a coarser crush, you can recirculate for RIMS and HERMS stepping but you will pay the price in extraction efficiency. Normally when recirculation is held to 1 Gpm the grain bed compaction is not a problem, with high percentage wheat and rye beers mashed without a protein rest, any recirculation is to fast.
Having built and used 2 brewing systems with wort flow measurement, it has permitted careful observation of the effects of crush and flow rates for various malts and recipes.

 

[organikbrewer]

The trombone does not tie into the top of the mash and mix the water, that is completely false. The weight of the grain and water create pressure on your false bottom, the taller the mash and the more weight the more compaction. This compaction reduces flow and causes the runoff to take the path of least resistance. And that causes you to lose extract. The trombone relieves that pressure and allows it to gently runoff. The wort can come out of the vent, but it only does if it is too low. They work very well, if done right you'll never have a stuck mash using one and you'll increase your extract easily. I'll take a picture next week when I brew and post it. As far as the batch sparging, I don't get why so many home brewers are obsessed with this technique, but oxidation of the mash is very bad, and if you don't treat your water for ph, this method is horrible. You should look up modern brewing vessels and look into the extents they go to reduce the pick up of oxygen while they mash and lauter. Modern vessels pump the grain into the bottom of the mash tun, because they found dropping it in from the top greatly increase the pick up of oxygen. Basically if you reduce the the pick of oxygen, you pick up less undesired compounds and reduce your color increase. You should always take great care with your wort, if you want great beer. Home brewers don't have to put their beer on a shelf, but breweries do and that is why they strive to make beers with out defect and that can with stand bad conditions.

 

[organikbrewer]

So here is an article from BYOB http://www.byo.com/stories/techniqu...66-hot-side-aeration-a-storing-hops-mr-wizard

Good technical brewing literature is very expensive and is not posted for free online. So it's hard to give you good reference to the actual chemistry. But the bottom line is, maintaining water an inch above your mash bed prevents excess oxidation and helps to evenly rinse the mash bed of extract. I will tell you another thing oxygen is the biggest concern of brewers, even more so than bacteria. We use a very expensive sensor to test our beers for oxygen and anything above 20 parts per Billion, yes Billion is unacceptable. High oxygen can ruin a beer in a matter of a few days, before it has ever left the building. Even a bag of potato chips is purged with gas in order to prevent oxidation. I am sure you take good care of your coffee beans, I sure do. I am just trying to help people out, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. I'll draw a diagram of a trombone and post it. Good practices will make good beer, don't stress out, but make sure you take care of your wort and you will make cleaner beer.

 

[organikbrewer]

So this a pretty bad sketch of my homemade trombone. I took the design from a brewery I brewed at for 3 1/2 years. The brewery I am currently working at has a fixed version, I don't feel it functions as well but it is hassle free, so you may prefer to make a fixed one. To make a fixed one just run a pipe to the top of your mash tun and some where in the middle below where your grain bed usually rest put in a tee to run off from. It will greatly reduce compaction, and you can control the flow with the amount of water on top of your mash bed. If the flow is still to fast you can adjust your valve, but it works the best if the valve is wide open. Using the grant you just adjust the exit valve of your pump to match the speed of the runoff going into the grant, unless you setup a float switch. Also be sure to prevent splashing, by keeping the grant fairly full at all times.

 

[organikbrewer]

Sorry had to flip the image.

 

[Windsors]

organikbrewer, thanks for posting the sketch. Much easier to understand.

Do you need to use the grant or can it be directly piped to the pump ? I know the grant has its advantages for monitoring and matching flow rates, but as you mentioned, I use a float switch to keep the wort an inch above the grain bed.

i wasn't sure if the grant also helps break a vacuum that could occur by the pipe or tubing being full of wort.

Thanks

Bill

 

[pola0502ds]

Organ,

Thanks for posting in this thread, you have brought up some very good points. I am the one who started this thread because I wanted to find the best way to make a grant. Besides the sketch, do you have any actual pictures? Do you know if there are anymore threads regarding this trombone? I don't know if people call it something besides what you are calling it.

 

[organikbrewer]

Thank you, I am glad it is helpful. You can directly hook a pump up, but you have to throttle it back because it will start to pull air bubbles if it flows faster than it's being feed. I do recommend using a grant. I actually just re-piped my setup. I was tired of the trombone setup, and I made it fixed. I have three valves now, one at the bottom, second at the first dimple of the keg, and the third at the next dimple. It's piped to the grant and I just throttle the pump so it just drizzles out, and I just adjust the valve so the level of the grant stays constant. I plan on getting some float switches so I don't have to watch it closely. So after the valve on the mash I put a union then a tee. The bottom valve is at that tee and then I just ran a pipe up to the top of the mash tun with tee's along the way, with valves. I hope that makes sense. I do have some pics of my Trombone I'll add them to this post.

 

[pola0502ds]

Can we get pictures of it installed and a overall pic of the system. It's just really hard to understand this setup.

 

[pola0502ds]

I just did a search on this forum and on the internet for more information on this trombone and couldn't find anything. I am really interested in it.

A while back, a buddy did something similar to his system and I blew it off because at the time I didn't care and didn't understand it. However, i do remember him saying this trombone fixture is almost used in all breweries in Belgium.

I really can't wait to see more pictures.

 

[pola0502ds]

Do you have pics of your grant as well?

 

[pola0502ds]

See the attached link, would this work good for a grant? I have a all triclamp setup so i could add triclamps to both npt fittings that are already on it. When i'm not using it as a grant I can use it as a hop back.

http://morebeer.com/view_product/15781

 

[nostalgia]

I thought I had some pictures of my grant, but I guess I was wrong. I do have two videos, if anyone's interested. While I'm not using a RIMS system, the idea should be the same.

The first is how I built the grant. The second is a full brewday, but you can see me describing it around 2:15 and actually using it at 8:30.

Hope they're useful. Both are in 720p HD if you click through.





-Joe

 

[weirdboy]

How about instead of a separate vessel you just make a false bottom with a wider gap between the actual vessel bottom and the false one?

 

[nostalgia]

I like being able to see the liquid level. I guess if you were using some sort of electronic level sensors it'd be OK. But then you're increasing the amount of liquid under the false bottom, reducing the amount in contact with the grain and requiring more liquid in the mash to cover the same amount of grain.

-Joe

 

[weirdboy]

Yeah but at least in the system I am planning, I would be mashing the full volume anyway for recirculation purposes.

 

[organikbrewer]

pola0502ds. I have a new setup, i'll post it when I get a chance. That container would make a good grant. The whole idea behind this is very simple. Water weighs about 8 lbs per gallon and a mash tun full of grain and water weighs a lot and that weight presses down on your false bottom, impeding the flow of wort. This can cause a stuck mash if the grain is milled to finely, to large of a mash, or to little surface area on the false bottom. Running the wort back up as it comes out of the mash to a level just under the water level in the mash relives the push of gravity on the false bottom reducing the pressure upon the false bottom. This is the main reason why modern lauter tuns are very wide. The shallower the mash bed the better you can extract the wort from the malt, because of less compaction upon the false bottom.

 

[Catt22]

I just did a search on this forum and on the internet for more information on this trombone and couldn't find anything. I am really interested in it.I really can't wait to see more pictures.

The trombone thng is basically an adjustable weir. The vent at the top prevents the down tube from becoming a siphon. The wort level inside the kettle cannot rise above the top of the weir (horizontal pipe w/vent at the top) so long as the false bottom is free flowing and there are no other major restrictions. So, the idea is to limit it to gravity flow while at the same time maintaining the liquid level inside the kettle. You could still overflow the kettle when fly sparging, but the grain bed won't run dry. A float switch could be used to avoid the overflow situation.

 

[pola0502ds]

Nosta - i will check out your videos later today if i have time, thank you.

Catt22 & Organ - thanks for your responses.

 

[organikbrewer]

I see how you get that it is similar to a weir, but it does pull from the bottom. Any pressure you reduce on your false bottom is going to give you better flow and less compaction which will lead to better extract. You can decrease the mash bed depth and increase the false bottom surface area also to reduce pressure. But if you can't do that, than a trombone is your best bet, or a fixed version.

 

[wuertele]

Any pressure you reduce on your false bottom is going to give you better flow and less compaction which will lead to better extract.

I'm still trying to verify your claim that slower flow is better flow and leads to better extract. I read your BYO Mr Wizard link, but that is about HSA. A faster lauter does not by itself imply HSA, it is only a consideration if you stir the mash.

I also looked into turbidity. This paper claims that turbidity is a funciton of stirring, not of lautering rate. And any extracted turbidity is dramatically reduced by a RIMS system, which continuously filters the wort.

Finally I looked into tannins. Tannins have a good aspect and a bad aspect. A small amount of tannins are needed to help precipitate proteins in the hot break. But sparge temps above 180F or pH above 8 can cause tannins to leach out at a high rate. Mr Wizard says "It is generally accepted that when the readings get down to a specific gravity of 1.008, there are more tannins and other unwanted material flowing from the lauter vessel." I am having trouble verifying Mr Wizard's statement (experiments with very thin mashes seem to contradict him, also consider that strike water always has SG lower than 1.008), but in any case high temps, high pH, and low gravity have nothing to do with the rate of the lauter.

So HSA, turbidity, and tannins all appear to have nothing to do with lauter rates. I have also found no mention of pressure or compaction being involved. Is there some other defect or consideration that I missed here? Do you have any other links you can share about the relationship between lauter rate and extract quality?

 

[organikbrewer]

How long does it usually take you to run off? I always recommend 1 hour to 1 1/2 hours to fill your kettle and at least a 15 minute vorlof, and 30-60 minute mash. If your using a mash filter, you can lauter very quickly, but with traditional sparging slow, gentle and hot is always best. It allows you to rinse the grain with the most efficiency of extract. The main reason I know this is because I brew three batches of beer a day 5 days a week for the last 7 years. You can tell when your going to get a bad extract by the way the mash is lautering. You should always go slow at first and when the gravity drops the viscosity also drops and you can speed up the runoff. It is a rule of thumb to always stop a runoff before your ph rises above 5.7 and lower than 1 degree Plato. Also when looking for info, if you look for answers from home brew knowledge, your not going to get very advanced information. If you really want solid answers you need to start buying real technical brewing textbooks or go to a real brewing school and get an education.