Grainfather Kickstarter

[RichBenn]

I looked at your kick starter page; there are two immediate problems with this:
1. Yeah, you can probably boil (barely) 5 gallons, but most 5.5 gallon batches (to get 5 in the keg) will have about 7 gallons for a 90 minute boil. I have a dual 1650 watt element boil kettle - I can tell you with just one element running you cannot get a proper roiling boil uncovered. DMS is removed with the boil-off, uncovered. Had the same experience with a 110V electric turkey fryer, years ago. Even with insulation, you couldn't really get it going reasonably. Fortunately I returned it.

Perhaps you get it boiling because of the aspect ratio of the boil pot - i.e. - very tall and narrow. But that defeats the purpose of the DMS reduction. It's why best boil kettles are a 1.2 to 1 (height to diameter) ratio.

The second problem is temperature control. Really should have a PID controller or better on it to control overshoot. That and a better pump (really? 6 watts?) and a 240V system (or smaller stated capacity) would allow mash out and stepped mashes.

Yep, you can make beer with this. But with limitations. Spending big bucks should not cripple you over what you can achieve with a 10 gallon cooler, a cheap propane burner, and a 10 gallon pot.

Kinda blows me away sometimes how everyone will invest in kickstarter campaigns that "sound good". But there is frequently a lack of thoughtfull engineering and/or marketing that go into well designed products, like Blichman, for example. The 1600 watts comprimise to work with the 120V US market is a big fail in my opinion. People brew in cold weather, in garages, and even 2000 watts is a challenge for some, let alone 1600.

 

[HopRodGR]

I looked at your kick starter page; there are two immediate problems with this:
1. Yeah, you can probably boil (barely) 5 gallons, but most 5.5 gallon batches (to get 5 in the keg) will have about 7 gallons for a 90 minute boil. I have a dual 1650 watt element boil kettle - I can tell you with just one element running you cannot get a proper roiling boil uncovered. DMS is removed with the boil-off, uncovered. Had the same experience with a 110V electric turkey fryer, years ago. Even with insulation, you couldn't really get it going reasonably. Fortunately I returned it.

Perhaps you get it boiling because of the aspect ratio of the boil pot - i.e. - very tall and narrow. But that defeats the purpose of the DMS reduction. It's why best boil kettles are a 1.2 to 1 (height to diameter) ratio.

The second problem is temperature control. Really should have a PID controller or better on it to control overshoot. That and a better pump (really? 6 watts?) and a 240V system (or smaller stated capacity) would allow mash out and stepped mashes.

Yep, you can make beer with this. But with limitations. Spending big bucks should not cripple you over what you can achieve with a 10 gallon cooler, a cheap propane burner, and a 10 gallon pot.

Kinda blows me away sometimes how everyone will invest in kickstarter campaigns that "sound good". But there is frequently a lack of thoughtfull engineering and/or marketing that go into well designed products, like Blichman, for example. The 1600 watts comprimise to work with the 120V US market is a big fail in my opinion. People brew in cold weather, in garages, and even 2000 watts is a challenge for some, let alone 1600.

Wow, that's quite the rant, very impressive. I was skeptical of the boil-off too but after showing the video that was posted on the Kickstarter page to several folks in my HB club who said it looked sufficient, I relented that I was obsessing over a detail. With the kettle geometry, I'm confident some insulation will help it, but that's yet to be seen.

Might want to check out this Facebook group. It's a newer product so it hasn't been without a few hiccups along the way, but there's a demonstrated level of success in the AU/NZ market.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1557967401104380/

 

[RichBenn]

Wow, that's quite the rant, very impressive. I was skeptical of the boil-off too but after showing the video that was posted on the Kickstarter page to several folks in my HB club who said it looked sufficient, I relented that I was obsessing over a detail. With the kettle geometry, I'm confident some insulation will help it, but that's yet to be seen.

Might want to check out this Facebook group. It's a newer product so it hasn't been without a few hiccups along the way, but there's a demonstrated level of success in the AU/NZ market.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1557967401104380/

The down under market does 2000 watts. In the electric forum some claim 2000 watts works, although I'd not be happy with it.

I'm an old brewer who started in 1981. I've had to replace too much equipment over the years to buy anything again that costs less but "sorta" does it. Would have saved a bunch load of money by doing it right the first time. Whether a 7.5 vs 10 gallon boil pot, a 5 vs 10 gallon igloo mash tun, small vs large siphon, a tap-a-draft vs a real kegging system, small cooling coil vs large, glass vs plastic fermenter, when you switch you'll wonder how you got by.

Do some searches in the Electric forum section on peoples experiences on lower watts.

 

[Onkel_Udo]

The down under market does 2000 watts. In the electric forum some claim 2000 watts works, although I'd not be happy with it.

How about this concept. The Kickstarter is long over, correct? Let's wait for those who take delivery to report back.

I think the Picobrew thing is a joke but those that purchased it, for the most part, have reported it meets their expectations.

Being a "voice of reason and experience" after the fact makes you just look petty and bitter. Especially when you keep fighting.

If the thing sucks, you will be an internet god. If the thing is awesome, you will never return to eat crow.

And no, did not purchase one and had no interest in one more than idle curiousity.

 

[Taubin]

The down under market does 2000 watts. In the electric forum some claim 2000 watts works, although I'd not be happy with it.

I've been using the 2Kw system here in NZ since it started and I couldn't be happier to be honest. For someone like me, who lives in a small apartment, it's great.

If you are convinced you won't be happy with it, don't buy it, simple. I've made a lot of great beer on it, and the only issues I've had were with a clamp that wasn't seated properly causing it to spray out of the CFC when under pressure. The people at Grainfather replaced it with no fuss.

Like others have said, when people take delivery they will either love it or hate it. It will either succeed in the US like it has elsewhere, or it will fail. I personally don't care either way, as mine works great and suits my needs. I've made great beer on it, and I'm happy with it, that's what is important to me.

I guess everyone should just get off your lawn and let you get back to your way of doing things, like you have since '81. Oh wait, you are on someone else's lawn pissing all over it, even though you've never even used the product.

 

[Grainfather]

Following a successful Kickstarter campaign the Grainfather is launching soon in USA and Canada.

Our website is now taking preorders.

We have limited stock in our first shipment so once sold out we won't be selling more until the next shipment arrives.

ETA for delivery of this first shipment will be late July with Kickstarter orders taking priority.

 

[r4brewery]

If anyone wants to see a grainfather in action, this is the first brew I did on mine. I'm sure I made some mistakes and did some things in ways other people wouldn't, but overall, it was a great experience. Every beer I've made on it has been excellent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36k8CylANg4

Do you recommend this unit? Still love it? I am about to pull the trigger and order one.

 

[Taubin]

Do you recommend this unit? Still love it? I am about to pull the trigger and order one.

I personally still love mine. I haven't had any issues with it at all. It makes brewing fast and consistent. There's not much I would change. The newer models come with a quick disconnect I believe, which is about the only thing I wish was on mine (apparently there will be an upgrade kit available for us early folk that bought one).

For me, it's a great system. I brew in my kitchen in my small apartment, and it's perfect for that. It produces great beer in a compact system that's easy to use. I probably sound like a bit of a salesman, however, I'm just a pleased customer. All of the beers I've brewed on it have been excellent, and the only minor issue I had (a clamp that wasn't sealing properly) was taken care of quickly when I reported it to Grainfather. Overall, yes I would absolutely buy it again if I had to do it all over again.

There is a users group on Facebook if you'd like to check it out to get more insight as well. It's a closed group, however one of the admins on there will add you no problem. https://www.facebook.com/groups/grainfather/

 

[brewtus_]

I've been very interested in this since I saw an add in Zymurgy magazine. Decided to roll the dice and placed a preorder today. They have a 30 day money back guarantee, so I'll brew 3-4 batches with it, and if it doesn't work as advertised, I'll simply return it and only be out a few bucks shipping.

The biggest thing I'm looking forward to is using this indoors when it's snowing and <30F outside in the wintertime.

 

[RichBenn]

I've been using the 2Kw system here in NZ since it started and I couldn't be happier to be honest. For someone like me, who lives in a small apartment, it's great....

I think you all missed my point, unfortunately. The U.S. Market will NOT use 2000 watts, like you have. I Have tried to boil with 1650 watts that they plan to use here. Not pretty.

There are other products in the U.S. that boil well.

 

[HopRodGR]

I'm guessing that almost everyone who pre-ordered has seen this video of the US model boiling, but again, for reference, here's the link. The video doesn't seem to embed correctly but can be found at the page linked below.

https://vimeo.com/nzimake

 

[Andyoesq]

I ordered one. I think it looks like a great concept, and I'm looking forward to trying it. Will it boil as fast as a gas model? no. but it fits my bill perfectly. I can use it inside, which is huge for me. there are a ton of videos online of it working, looks great.
One of the thought I had was to start with hot water, when getting up to mash temp, to speed that up some, and then to add an immersion heater as well, if needed, to get it up to boil quicker. There are a ton of them on Amazon for pretty cheap. has anyone tried it?
I think it looks like a great idea, and some pretty good features, and am looking forward to trying it.

 

[Taubin]

I think you all missed my point, unfortunately. The U.S. Market will NOT use 2000 watts, like you have. I Have tried to boil with 1650 watts that they plan to use here. Not pretty.

There are other products in the U.S. that boil well.

I didn't miss the point at all. As I stated, people will order it, and either be pleased or displeased with it. The people at GF has posted a video showing the boil in the system, and have stated it boils just fine.

You have stated it's not for you, as you don't think it will suit your needs, that's absolutely fine. But you keep coming back and try to convince people they shouldn't even look into it as it's not for you, so it simply can't work.

If that's the case, and it doesn't work, it will fail. However if it works just fine as the video shows, and most people are convinced of, I think it will do quite well.

You seem hell bent on telling everyone a product that's not even fully released yet, will not work. You obviously haven't tried the product, yet here you are saying how horrible it is.

I'm just giving experience from my dealings with the NZ (2KW) version, and with the company itself. I couldn't care less if people order it or not. I'm just trying to give some insight into the unit I use, and have been using for the past number of months.

 

[Onkel_Udo]

I think you all missed my point, unfortunately. The U.S. Market will NOT use 2000 watts, like you have. I Have tried to boil with 1650 watts that they plan to use here. Not pretty.

There are other products in the U.S. that boil well.

You know, you're right. In the last eight pages of thread, not one person brought it up. We are all shamed.

 

[brewtus_]

add an immersion heater as well, if needed, to get it up to boil quicker. There are a ton of them on Amazon for pretty cheap. has anyone tried it?
.

Only do that on a separate circuit. 1600W plus an immersion heater will overlaod a single 20A circuit.

 

[Andyoesq]

Only do that on a separate circuit. 1600W plus an immersion heater will overlaod a single 20A circuit.

Yes, I have another circuit I can easily tap into.
I have an insta hot in my kitchen, which I can draw gallons of hot water on demand at 160 degrees. I figure this will be more than sufficient to both start the mash, and for sparging.
I figure I won't need more power for the grainfather. If you look at the grianfather facebook page and their kickstarter page, they have extensively tested the US model, and they give the heat and boil times.
But I also figure if I did, an easy solution would be to something like this http://www.amazon.com/Allied-Precision-Premier-742G-Bucket/dp/B000BDB4UG/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1435240901&sr=8-2&keywords=immersion+heater. I can easily run it on another circuit in my basement, and would give you a total of 2,600W, or 30% more power than the Euro model, which I have watched about 50 videos of on youtube, working wonderfully.
I think it looks awesome, and I am excited to try it out. It isn't for everyone. You can't start your own microbrew pub with it. But for the home brewer, I am fascinated by it, am glad they made it, and can't wait to get it.

 

[DamageCT]

Any notification on whether anyone from the US will have theirs shipped soon?
I'm very interested in seeing how the first few batches turn out before buying one myself.


My main question is WILL this be able to maintain a boil in a garage during the winter in the North East. It gets rather cold and without insulation and with just 1600w it might mean that I would not be able to brew during the winter sadly.

 

[Onkel_Udo]

Any notification on whether anyone from the US will have theirs shipped soon?
I'm very interested in seeing how the first few batches turn out before buying one myself.


My main question is WILL this be able to maintain a boil in a garage during the winter in the North East. It gets rather cold and without insulation and with just 1600w it might mean that I would not be able to brew during the winter sadly.

I would bet a sawbuck you will have to insulated for ambient temps under 40 F. that said, one layer of bubblewrap foil should be enough.

 

[Andyoesq]

I would bet a sawbuck you will have to insulated for ambient temps under 40 F. that said, one layer of bubblewrap foil should be enough.

what kind of bubblewrap foil would you recommend? I was looking at the reflectix, but it says it is only good up to 180 degrees

 

[Onkel_Udo]

what kind of bubblewrap foil would you recommend? I was looking at the reflectix, but it says it is only good up to 180 degrees

The exterior of that vessel will never exceed 180F...if it does, from experience, I can tell you only the non-Mylar exterior plastic will melt. Feel free to use it...and two layer would ROCK!

On my BIAB stovetop experiment, the difference was barely boiling to hopping out of the pot.

 

[OleGoatBrewing]

So my unit arrived last week. I did a wet run with water and a test brew since. Lots of pro's and con's I came up with. I have a series of videos on my website which goes over them.

I need to see how the beer turns out before I make a final determination on the unit as a whole. Its fermenting away fine right now so that's promising. As discussed here before the vigor of the boil is of big concern to me. I had about 7.25 gal in and was pretty much getting a "simmer". I guess could manage my volumes a little better and possibly achieve a boil with a smaller volume, but that's a compromise to me I'm not sure I want to have to deal with. I have a test planned for later this week to figure out what it's US capabilities actually are to obtain a rolling boil.

In my video you''ll see I used a reflectix wrap to keep the heat in (it did not melt). Also of note, the the system never registered above 211 degrees during the boil. Even in the video that came out before the GF release (Vimeo Video posted above) it only looks like the temperature unit was registering 210 vs the 212 need for boil. So that's another potential major issue.

So the jury is still out for me at least. If I solve the boil issue without having to compromise too much of the brewing process or whats currently in the fermenter turns out great then I'm sold. If not then we'll see.

I'll keep ya'll up to date.

 

[Andyoesq]

I watched your video, very well done, great review.

Quick question re: the boil - what about finding (or building) another similar size lid, and just put a little bigger hole in the middle? Kind of like a donut shaped lid? help retain a little more of the heat, but still leave a bunch of area for the bad stuff to vent out out and off?

l have never built one, just thinking conceptually.

 

[OleGoatBrewing]

I watched your video, very well done, great review.

Quick question re: the boil - what about finding (or building) another similar size lid, and just put a little bigger hole in the middle? Kind of like a donut shaped lid? help retain a little more of the heat, but still leave a bunch of area for the bad stuff to vent out out and off?

l have never built one, just thinking conceptually.

Thanks for the feedback on the video. Good idea! I may try to fabricate something which will reflect the heat back down. I will keep this post updated.

 

[HopRodGR]

Watched your vid, the boil looks fine to me at around 11:12 and on. Not rip roaring, but it seems to have a clear roll. Your blog says your volume pre-boil was 7.75 gallons, right?

 

[ArcaneXor]

I will do my initial brew on a Grainfather unit tomorrow. I was actually very pleased to see that the boil isn't as intense as in the 240V version, which looked too strong for my preference (my ideal boil looks similar to a first magnitude spring boil - those of you in karst country will be able to relate).

Now to watch the rest of your videos...

 

[HopRodGR]

For anyone looking for another shot of the boil, this is with 6.8 gallons in the boiler, with an hour left in the boil. I went on to yield a little more than 5.5 gallons in the fermenter after transferring.

http://youtu.be/clNuDkG0sS0

 

[dyqik]

In my video you''ll see I used a reflectix wrap to keep the heat in (it did not melt). Also of note, the the system never registered above 211 degrees during the boil. Even in the video that came out before the GF release (Vimeo Video posted above) it only looks like the temperature unit was registering 210 vs the 212 need for boil. So that's another potential major issue.

That could be normal. Boiling point is only 212F at sea level on average. If the weather is bad and you are in a low pressure weather system, boiling point can drop to 211 or lower even exactly at sea level. It can be as high as 213.5F in a high pressure system. Air pressure varies by about ±3% with the weather. Add a bit of elevation and sensor error and it's not at all surprising to see a thermometer reading under 212F at boiling point. You need to check your local barometric pressure at the time of measurement, adjust for elevation, and convert that to a boiling point (plenty of calculators online) to check a thermometer against boiling point to within one degree.

 

[kh54s10]

For anyone looking for another shot of the boil, this is with 6.8 gallons in the boiler, with an hour left in the boil. I went on to yield a little more than 5.5 gallons in the fermenter after transferring.

http://youtu.be/clNuDkG0sS0

The boil in this video looks perfectly adequate. I wish I could dial down my propane to this level. Then I wouldn't be boiling off 2 gallons in an hour......

 

[aprichman]

Hey guys, I'm looking at the Grainfather USA website and it says it uses a combination of a 1600W heater as well as another 600W one. Does this run on 120V? Seriously considering switching over to this to expand up to 5 gallon batches instead of making the move to propane.

 

[Andyoesq]

there is a switch to toggle it between 1600 and 600. the 1600 is to ramp up to mash an boil, the 600 is to maintain mash, so there is less switching on and off and less temp fluctuation. you can't turn both on at once.

 

[Andyoesq]

That could be normal. Boiling point is only 212F at sea level on average. If the weather is bad and you are in a low pressure weather system, boiling point can drop to 211 or lower even exactly at sea level. It can be as high as 213.5F in a high pressure system. Air pressure varies by about ±3% with the weather. Add a bit of elevation and sensor error and it's not at all surprising to see a thermometer reading under 212F at boiling point. You need to check your local barometric pressure at the time of measurement, adjust for elevation, and convert that to a boiling point (plenty of calculators online) to check a thermometer against boiling point to within one degree.

good point, never thought of that. I'm at close to 800' elevation - so boiling would only be roughly 210.58 - never thought of that

 

[aprichman]

there is a switch to toggle it between 1600 and 600. the 1600 is to ramp up to mash an boil, the 600 is to maintain mash, so there is less switching on and off and less temp fluctuation. you can't turn both on at once.

Thanks for the clarifying, that makes a lot of sense. Being able to run a small electric system like this would probably be cheaper than propane in the long run.

 

[ArcaneXor]

I brewed on it twice now. It's a neat little system, but of course I won't know how the beers taste for another couple of weeks.

It is a little slow to come up to temperature (it's about a six hour brewday from setup to being done with cleanup), the mash temp fluctuation is quite a big bigger than on my Tower of Power-controlled brewing system (2 degrees vs. about 0.5 degrees), and the pump clogged when I tried to chill my first batch (an IPA). Bagging up the hops and spices for my second batch (a Witbier) solved that issue. These are minor inconveniences. The boil was fine, and while I didn't take precise numbers, yield and efficiency seemed quite good (>75%).

 

[aprichman]

What do you think of it compared to CO Brewing's 7.5 gallon setup that uses a PID controller and 2000W element? Their system with the mesh grain bag and the plastic inline pump comes out to around $850. That also doesn't include the counterflow chiller which is around $100 more if I wanted to go that route over an IC.

 

[OleGoatBrewing]

Watched your vid, the boil looks fine to me at around 11:12 and on. Not rip roaring, but it seems to have a clear roll. Your blog says your volume pre-boil was 7.75 gallons, right?

Yes my pre-boil was 7.75

 

[OleGoatBrewing]

Hey guys, I'm looking at the Grainfather USA website and it says it uses a combination of a 1600W heater as well as another 600W one. Does this run on 120V? Seriously considering switching over to this to expand up to 5 gallon batches instead of making the move to propane.

Yes..I run it on a 20Amp circuit with 15A GFCI outlet and it works fine. :rockin:

 

[OleGoatBrewing]

My LHBS found out if they used a frying pan splatter guard it retained a little more heat to help the boil without fear of DMS occurring. I tried it! That combined with the Reflectix seemed to get me a little more activity.

Here is a Video​

Photo

 

[andysim]

My Grainfather arrived on Tuesday, I assembled it on Saturday and gave it a water only test run. Below are my observations:

1. I got a vigorous boil with the lid on. When I took the lid off, the temp dropped to 210-211 degrees. The water was still boiling lightly. (My elevation is 340' ASL). I think if you leave the lid on you should get a good hot break. I'd take the lid off after the hot break.

2. It took about 55 minutes to get six gallons of water to raise from 80 degrees to 165 degrees. Not fast, but I don't have to babysit the pot like I would my propane set up. This is not a big negative to me.

3. The cold water tubing to barb connection on the chiller needs a hose clamp. One was not provided. The hose blew off the barb connection during the wort chilling process. I had one in my tool box, so I installed the hose clamp.

4. The barb connection to the garden hose female connector leaks. I'm sure this is an easy fix.

5. I going to add an extension to the chiller red hot water outlet tubing. Its too short to get the water off my patio or out off my garage.

6. I wish the glass lid had some sort of handle on it. It is difficult to pick up when it is hot and steam is rising out of the pot. I'm sure I will break it.

7. Overall the system is easy to use and I look forward to my first actual brew day on Sunday (August 23rd),

 

[Andyoesq]

My LHBS found out if they used a frying pan splatter guard it retained a little more heat to help the boil without fear of DMS occurring. I tried it! That combined with the Reflectix seemed to get me a little more activity.

Here is a Video​

Photo

great idea old goat - I've been looking for a way to allow a little more heat retention during boil, while allowing enough venting of the DMS. what about something like this? a little more heat retention, would this provide enough venting? http://www.amazon.com/Mastrad-11-Inch-Silicone-Splatter-Screen/dp/B000U6BNCI/ref=pd_sim_79_1?ie=UTF8&refRID=1N9SZFJ2AY7ZPF326DX6

 

[aprichman]

Just won the AMCYL kettle giveaway so it looks like the Grainfather isn't in my near future. Probably for the best because my wife gave me the "i'm going to kill you look" after I told her about the $850 price tag