Grain to glass in 3 days!

[11thStBrewing]

I’ve been brewing for awhile now. I’m patient, but I always take a sample here and there just to see how the beer is progressing.

I see these short grain to glass time videos. Every time I’ve tried a beer shortly after it’s done fermenting it’s been pretty ngarly, other than the fruited Philly sour(10 days total).

Are these mostly BS to get views and pump out videos? Maybe people just have different standards?

 

[bobeer]

I think it depends on what you're brewing and the steps to you take to get it done that fast. If it's low gravity and you make a nice sized starter, with lots of healthy yeast ready to go, I can see it finishing that fast even though 3 days is pretty darn fast. Lower gravity IPA's don't really need the longer conditioning time most other beers do so I can see that being a good style to try a quick turn around beer. English bitter, pale mild, etc... would probably be good styles as well.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

I assume we are talking about beers with Kveik. I have had good luck turning around Voss to make an enjoyable beer in about 7 days from grain to glass, though even those beers are better at about 14 days (which is still faster than other types of yeast). I recall kicking the keg of one of my first Voss beers at 4 weeks from brew day, where most ales I plan 14 days in the fermenter and 14 days in the keg just to get to the "drinkable" stage.

My fairly recent and limited experience with Lutra seems to indicate that it could benefit from a few weeks of cold conditioning before it gets to the "clean" stage.

So 3 days for grain to glass is probably more of a gimmick, but Voss and Lutra are definitely fast fermenters that can turn around a solid beer that is ready to drink in less time than other ale yeasts. A Nottingham vs Voss shootout would be interesting though.

 

[aceluby]

Just kicked a 6 day grain to glass IPA keg with lutra and turned around and made another that I’ll keg tonight. It’s pretty green without any kind of aging, but still a good IPA. After a week it had settled and at two weeks it was great - then it was gone shortly after. That beer is now in permanent rotation.

 

[Group W]

Going short depends on the quality you are willing to sacrifice. A beer with dry hops or WP hops needs more time to settle. I give it 3 weeks. 7 days in the fermenter including cold crash and two weeks to settle and carb in the keg for a hoppy beer.

3 days in my book is BS.

 

[11thStBrewing]

I assume we are talking about beers with Kveik. I have had good luck turning around Voss to make an enjoyable beer in about 7 days from grain to glass, though even those beers are better at about 14 days (which is still faster than other types of yeast). I recall kicking the keg of one of my first Voss beers at 4 weeks from brew day, where most ales I plan 14 days in the fermenter and 14 days in the keg just to get to the "drinkable" stage.

My fairly recent and limited experience with Lutra seems to indicate that it could benefit from a few weeks of cold conditioning before it gets to the "clean" stage.

So 3 days for grain to glass is probably more of a gimmick, but Voss and Lutra are definitely fast fermenters that can turn around a solid beer that is ready to drink in less time than other ale yeasts. A Nottingham vs Voss shootout would be interesting though.

Thanks for the tips. I’m subbed on YT.

 

[11thStBrewing]

Just kicked a 6 day grain to glass IPA keg with lutra and turned around and made another that I’ll keg tonight. It’s pretty green without any kind of aging, but still a good IPA. After a week it had settled and at two weeks it was great - then it was gone shortly after. That beer is now in permanent rotation.

That’s cool.

 

[11thStBrewing]

Going short depends on the quality you are willing to sacrifice. A beer with dry hops or WP hops needs more time to settle. I give it 3 weeks. 7 days in the fermenter including cold crash and two weeks to settle and carb in the keg for a hoppy beer.

I appreciate your input.

 

[JaggersBrewingCo]

I have had a few Kveik brews get done pretty darn fast even with bottle conditioning. I brewed a Raw Ale with Voss Kveik that was fully carbed at one week. The first time I brewed it, it did stall out for some reason so fermentation took three weeks.

But from my experience with Kveik if you underpitch it double up on the yeast nutrient and ferment at about 90-95 degrees your golden for a very fast turn around.

 

[seatazzz]

I use Lutra for my Blonde, and Loki for one of my IPAs; the IPA is great with a 7 day turnaround, but as @CascadesBrewer said above, the Lutra does better with a week of conditioning in the keg, with some gelatin for fining. Both great beers, and primary is almost always done in less than 3 days. Kveik yeasts also save well as slurry, since you don't need to use as much.

 

[Oleson M.D.]

Figure the time to ferment. Then the suggested D-Rest, then cold crashing. 3 days won’t cut it.
As was mentioned, quality will be sacrificed.

 

[redrocker652002]

Just kicked a 6 day grain to glass IPA keg with lutra and turned around and made another that I’ll keg tonight. It’s pretty green without any kind of aging, but still a good IPA. After a week it had settled and at two weeks it was great - then it was gone shortly after. That beer is now in permanent rotation.

Would love to know your recipe and what you did.

 

[aceluby]

Would love to know your recipe and what you did.

This is the original recipe that the neighborhood raved over. The one that I'll keg today I skipped the honey malt and just used honey (my honey malt was pre-crushed and I wanted to get rid of it). It's a really good citra IPA with about 1/2 pound of hops

Malt
11 lbs 2-row
1 lbs Munich
8oz Carapils
8oz Crystal 20
8oz Melanoidin
4oz Honey Malt

Hops
All citra hops
20g @60
35g each @15, 10, 5, & 0
75g added when the temp of the wort cools to 135 with a good stir for a ton of aroma (or you can dry hop, but you'll get some floaters dry hopping)

Yeast
Repitched Lutra

Notes:

• 1/2 a campden tablet for water treatment, otherwise my water is pretty good out of the tap
• tsp of irish moss at 20 min
• Mash @154 on my Anvil Foundry (which means the mash is actually at 150)
• 75% efficiency
• Cool down wort to 90, transfer to fermenter, and pitch yeast
• Transfer to keg on day 5 or 6, let it chill for 6ish hours, add 1/2 pack of bloomed gelatin, pump up CO2 to 40
• Next afternoon bring down to serving pressure and drink those hoppy probiotics if you want or dump them (I drink 'em, lol)
• Beer will definitely be green and really needs a week to calm down, but it's still very drinkable. Had a bonfire with the neighbors on day 8 or 9 and we all woke up with a hangover, so we call this 'Overhang IPA'

 

[bwible]

I can’t even force carbonate a beer in a keg in 3 days, let alone bottle condition in 3 days. That would a real fast ferment to be finished in 3 days. Hell, we’re told gravity readings are supposed to be the same for 3 days to know if it’s done. No time for settling or clearing. Hazy IPA? Maybe.

 

[seatazzz]

Primary fermentation can indeed be done in 3 days, sometimes less depending on the yeast; conditioning/carbing are different beasts. Grain to glass in 3 days? I guess it's possible, with modern force-carbing methods, but not something I'd risk 12lbs of grain and whatever amount of hops on. 7 days is the shortest I'll go, and that's only for IPAs on kveiks; I dry hop when the krausen starts to drop, usually at the beginning of day 3, and I get good juicy IPAs out of it. I haven't left a beer in primary for longer than 10 days in a few years, with the exception of a couple of stouts and strong ales.

And that's been my big beef with some of the kits out there; instructions are seriously outdated. Primary for 14 days, then transfer to secondary for another 7 days? And then welcome your oxidized (or worse, infected) as hell beer. I honestly think that's why a lot of people who try this hobby get out of it after only a couple of batches, unless they have the good fortune to find HBT or a similar forum, or go out and buy the good books. Somebody needs to put out an extract/partial mash kit that will actually produce GOOD beer in 10-14 days; using fresh (possibly dry kveik, for those without temperature control) yeast, up-to-date instructions from the 21st century, to give beginners something amazing from their first brew with the minimal effort required of an extract/partial mash kit. That will keep them coming back for more. I remember being a beginner, with absolutely no patience and a ton of excitement. Might get some dissent on this one.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

And that's been my big beef with some of the kits out there; [with some kits the] instructions are seriously outdated. Primary for 14 days, then transfer to secondary for another 7 days? And then welcome your oxidized (or worse, infected) as hell beer.

In many places, kits are getting better over time. For example, Brewers Best Cream Ale Kit (from a topic earlier today).

With some retailers, kit instructions can be are "hit or miss" - perhaps updating the kit instructions the next time they need to be printed?

Some home brewing web sites appear to be crowd sourcing wiki content for this topic. Will HomeBrewTalk will have a new sticky in the near future?

Beyond kit instructions, a couple of years back, someone mentioned that MoreBeer had an option for shipping the kit with either LME or DME. Today, they still have that option:

(link)​

(so no reason to worry about that LME going bad due to the kit being stored in an overheated garage at it's final destination).

Somebody needs to put out an extract/partial mash kit that will actually produce GOOD beer in 10-14 days; using fresh (possibly dry kveik, for those without temperature control) yeast, up-to-date instructions from the 21st century, to give beginners something amazing from their first brew with the minimal effort required of an extract/partial mash kit. That will keep them coming back for more. I remember being a beginner, with absolutely no patience and a ton of excitement. Might get some dissent on this one.

Basic Brewing Video video (Sept 15, 2022) may be of interest. The brew day is definitely "out side the box" when compared to a 5 gal all-grain three tier fly sparge kegging setup.

But that brew day does demonstrate what ingredients (DME + kveik yeast) can do to the classic home brewing process. The process in the video is roughly 1) flame-on with 2-ish gal water, 2) steep until 160F, 3) add all the DME, 3) boil for 15 minutes, 4) no-chill, just add top-up water & pitch kvick yeast,

Does it work for all styles? Time will tell...

Anyone know of recipe software that can estimate using that process?

---

eta: edits for formatting and emphasis.

eta: I suspect the equations for estimating the process are available in a couple of obscure places.

 

[bwible]

And that's been my big beef with some of the kits out there; instructions are seriously outdated. Primary for 14 days, then transfer to secondary for another 7 days? And then welcome your oxidized (or worse, infected) as hell beer.

Have to seriously disagree. I still put most of my beers in secondary and nothing is oxidized or infected. We made good homebrew before the oxygen police and many of us are still making it now without obsessing over every molecule of O2.

 

[11thStBrewing]

Have to seriously disagree. I still put most of my beers in secondary and nothing is oxidized or infected. We made good homebrew before the oxygen police and many of us are still making it now without obsessing over every molecule of O2.

I’ve oxidized two hoppy beers to where they were undrinkable in a week by simply removing the lid on the fermenter and dumping hops in. Even during active fermentation. Brownish purple cardboard water.

I started fermenting and serving from the same keg to combat that. No issues.
Now I use magnets. Sucks, but don’t know what else to do.

 

[aceluby]

I’ve oxidized two hoppy beers to where they were undrinkable in a week by simply removing the lid on the fermenter and dumping hops in. Even during active fermentation. Brownish purple cardboard water.

I started fermenting and serving from the same keg to combat that. No issues.
Now I use magnets. Sucks, but don’t know what else to do.

I’ve stopped dry hopping. I wait until the temp is at 135, stir my hops in, and keep cooling until pitching temp. It allows the aroma oils to get released, but now I don’t have to deal with oxidation, hops in the finished product, chance of a grassy taste, or any kind of added bitterness.

I heard about the technique on the BeerSmith podcast where he talked to a hop expert about temps that release specific kinds of oils vs burn them off. I’ve tried it a few times now and the aroma has been better than dry hopping with a more balanced bitterness in my IPA. Might be something to try.

 

[11thStBrewing]

I’ve stopped dry hopping. I wait until the temp is at 135, stir my hops in, and keep cooling until pitching temp. It allows the aroma oils to get released, but now I don’t have to deal with oxidation, hops in the finished product, chance of a grassy taste, or any kind of added bitterness.

I heard about the technique on the BeerSmith podcast where he talked to a hop expert about temps that release specific kinds of oils vs burn them off. I’ve tried it a few times now and the aroma has been better than dry hopping with a more balanced bitterness in my IPA. Might be something to try.

I appreciate your reply. I'll have to give a style like that a try. Pale ale type thing? My non hoppy beers so far have been great to me.
When I've tried dry hopping during active fermentation(with no o2) the results haven't been great so far. As far as hoppy beers go, I really like the super hoppy up ones. Hoping to also give dry hopping after fermentation a go with the magnet setup.

 

[aceluby]

I appreciate your reply. I'll have to give a style like that a try. Pale ale type thing? My non hoppy beers so far have been great to me.
When I've tried dry hopping during active fermentation(with no o2) the results haven't been great so far. As far as hoppy beers go, I really like the super hoppy up ones. Hoping to also give dry hopping after fermentation a go with the magnet setup.

Recipe is above. About 1/2 pound of hops. Kind of a betweener beer that could be an APA or IPA. Pretty hoppy though. I’m a big fan of very hoppy beers.

 

[Beerstein]

Using kveik in summer, I've done two IPA batches in about five days. Kveik finished in 24-48 hours. The rest of the time was building up pressure via spunding, then a quick cold crash.

I generally don't do diacetyl rests unless using English yeasts.

The final product was tasty and drinkable. Here is the catch: I found that the flavor profiles continued to change and mature for another two plus weeks. What you drink on day six is not what you're drinking on any following day.

If you're in a pinch, sure do it. You'll have beer and it'll be just fine drinkable beer. If I really needed beer, would I do this again? Sure yep. Do I like a beer that has settled and matured better? Yes I do. The more mature flavor profile is more even, more complex.

 

[stianchrister]

Grain to glass in three days is possible. I've done grain to glass in 5 days with Lutra with bottling (fermentation done in the morning of day 3, bottle fully carbonated on day 5). Kveik really is demon yeast compared to other ale strains. The beer continued to evolve and mature as weeks and months went by, as all beer does, but it was done and drinkable on day 5.

There's a lot of old brewer's dogma that goes untested. Kveik will shatter many people's minds if they try it, and start pushing the limits of it — for example by testing the bottle carbonation level after two days.

The thought process of testing the bottle carbonation was as follows: "This yeast ate through all that wort in less than two days without overpitching. Surely, it must have eaten through that tiny amount of sugar I put in there. Let's check." Cracked the bottle, and it had gone through all of it.

 

[Group W]

Old brewer’s dogma? I don’t think anyone is saying grain to glass in 3 days is not possible. If one needs a quick fix, and quick turnaround is the goal, then go for it. Bottle it up and enter it in a sanctioned competition.

When I was in Portland this summer, two highly respected craft breweries were proud of the fact that they were pumping out WC IPAs grain to glass in 7 days. For both breweries, those beers were dreadfully green and full of polyphenols. They should have never been served that way.

When I was running a Tilt hydrometer it was pretty clear that primary fermentation was finished in about 4 days with Chico yeast. Kveik no doubt kicks ass.

A brewer from Deschutes Brewery once told me “anyone can make sugar water.” Same goes for fermentation. If we get too one dimensional our beers will suffer. We have the luxury of being able to control every aspect of the brewing process. We can make beers the big commercial breweries could only dream of.

Old brew dog.

 

[stianchrister]

It wasn't my intention to offend, I simply meant to say that there is a lot of old dogma that goes unquestioned because it works (read: doesn't fail).

Challenging that dogma is how we discover new things, but most challenges to dogma will fail because dogma is dogma for a reason (survival). Like what you said about the kveik beers you tasted being too green.

Doesn't matter how proud the brewers were of how quickly they could turn it around... If they didn't move, the methods won't survive.

But we've got a "new" (actually old) strains of exciting yeasts with the kveik family, and it would be foolish to blindly follow old practices when we're testing what's both good and possible with this yeast.