Graff (Malty, slightly hopped cider)

[AzOr]

[QUOTE="MikeTodd I am impressed! I am going to start a Gunslinger’s next![/QUOTE]

Is Gunslinger a cider?

 

[MikeTodd]

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/gunslingers-graff.147726/

It is much darker with a higher ratio of wort:juice.

 

[AzOr]

Thank you. I guess I missed it because I rarely go into that page. Sounds interesting.

 

[Jwin]

So, it's finally fully carbed for me today and so I cracked one open and i can't say it's amazing. It's good but a bit too dry, my OG was 1.055 and it finished at 1.005 with s-04. This was my first so I didn't really know what to do raise the gravity. Better luck next time I guess!

Lactose or other unfermentable sugar is the only way to make it sweeter if you bottle condition unless you want to play with fire.
Another option is to dose your glass with apple juice or sugar before you pour.

 

[Coontail]

Lactose or other unfermentable sugar is the only way to make it sweeter if you bottle condition unless you want to play with fire.
Another option is to dose your glass with apple juice or sugar before you pour.

Surprisingly after a couple days in the fridge the taste improved a lot. Not sure if this is normal?

 

[Jwin]

Yeast dropping out andCo2 getting into solution (vs headspace) can both change the flavor pretty drastically. Both as a result of prolonged refrigeration.

 

[snd1990]

So, it's finally fully carbed for me today and so I cracked one open and i can't say it's amazing. It's good but a bit too dry, my OG was 1.055 and it finished at 1.005 with s-04. This was my first so I didn't really know what to do raise the gravity. Better luck next time I guess!

First off it will improve with time. 2nd are u sure you used s04? It usually has a lower atten and doesn't usually finish that low. 3rd to raise the FG you need to get some more unfermentables in the wort. With this recipe just bump the crystal up to .75lbs of 120l or add .25lb of carapils or similar. Steep this with the wheat @158° or so to increase the unfermentable sugars that ur able to withdraw from the grain. Also to bump up the apple flavor I add a can of frozen apple juice concentrate to the juice. Just make sure it is 100% apple juice.
Good luck

 

[Coontail]

First off it will improve with time. 2nd are u sure you used s04? It usually has a lower atten and doesn't usually finish that low. 3rd to raise the FG you need to get some more unfermentables in the wort. With this recipe just bump the crystal up to .75lbs of 120l or add .25lb of carapils or similar. Steep this with the wheat @158° or so to increase the unfermentable sugars that ur able to withdraw from the grain. Also to bump up the apple flavor I add a can of frozen apple juice concentrate to the juice. Just make sure it is 100% apple juice.
Good luck

The flavor has improved greatly after being in the fridge a few days. I am 100% sure I used S04, does s04 always finish at 1.010 or does it depend on how low the OG is? Thanks for the tips though! My brother recently got a homebrewing kit from our local HBS so I'm borrowing the book it came with so I can really read up on it more

 

[Spooghet]

I just kegged a 5 gal batch following Brandon O's recipe. Came out very tasty, but of course I got too excited and decided to dry hop. Bagged and dropped an oz of cascade in about 3 hours ago and its already too much "bitterness" compared to earlier. Ive dry hopped many ciders at a ratio of about .25 oz per gal with a ton of success so I figured what could an oz hurt in 5 gal of this graff. I find it hard to believe that in 3 hours its changed so much. Anyway I'm gonna yank that bag out tonight and see if it gets better with time. Anyone else run into this? Any advice would be great but this is mainly a warning to others.

 

[pshankstar]

I brewed up a batch of this on Tuesday night. I hope to get it into a keg before the Super Bowl to share. I know I am rushing it a bit...

I did a mini mash to get one gallon of wort. I used 3lbs of 2-row, 0.75lbs of Paul's Dark Crystal Malt (what I had on hand), 2oz of wheat and 0.4oz of Hersbrucker (2% AA) at 30 mins since I had just that amount left over from a previous brew. Lastly Nottingham yeast and it's bubbling away. I'm excited to see how it turns out! Cheers!

 

[MikeTodd]

I’m having some carb issues. So far I am on week three of in the bottles and barley any carbination. I did 5oz of priming sugar as I do with my beers and other ciders. The difference is that I used gelatin for fining and then cold crashed and bottled right after I took the graf out of the fridge. My house stays a constant 64-66 degrees. Should I make a yeast starter and add some back into the bottles and recap? The drink is plenty sweet and I get a small psshh with a little bit od “smoke” but almost no carb and no head when I pour it into a glass. I used s04.

 

[Spooghet]

Update: The overly bitter flavor was just a trub that lasted longer than I expected. Ended up leaving the dry hop charge in for the two weeks it took me to finish the keg. It turned out fantastic and I might experiment with even more dry hops next time. Great recipe!

 

[MikeTodd]

Finally getting some decent carbonation. It has been in bottles for over 4 weeks now.

 

[TGFV]

Some ciders and higher abv drinks seen to take longer for me (my Graff took 6 weeks to get to a good carbonation and my ciders take 6-10 on average, which is fine because they just improve with age)

 

[11oclockBrewery]

Just bottled my graf and had the first taste, really fantastic. Extremely Smooth for being 7.2% ABV, has great apple character, perfect final gravity not too dry not too sweet (1.008). Here is the recipe I used:

**Fermentables:
*Apple Juice
4 x 1Gallon Tree top Apple Juice bottles (no Vit C Added!)

*Malt - Steeping Grains and DME
1 gallon water (carbon filtered, no other treatment)
Steep grains for 30mins (155-160degF)
4oz C20
4oz C80
4oz Honey Malt
Add - 2 lb light DME
Bring to Boil

**Hops
- 0.25oz Azacca Hops (12.2% AA) @10mins
(Total boil time = 10min)

Add 1/4 whirflock @ 5mins
Add 4oz lactose at flameout

**Cool to 65-70deg in ice bath

Add 4 teaspoon yeast nutrient to Apple Juice, then add Wort to it

**Yeast = Nottingham, rehydrated and pitched @65deg

Primary: 2 weeks @ 60deg F
Secondary 2 weeks @ 60deg F

O.G. = 1.062
F.G. = 1.008
ABV = 7.2%

The combination of crystal malt, honey malt, and lactose contributes nice sweetness/body without adding too much "malt" character. This still tastes much more like cider than beer.
Should be awesome when carbed to 2.0 vol

Cheers!

 

[MikeTodd]

Has anyone tried this using wyeast 4766? It is their Cider/Sweet Mead yeast. I have some I harvested after making a straight forward cider and was wondering how it would do for this graf.

 

[Psywar]

Hello everyone,
I ordered my stuff from AIH:
This is what I am looking to brew with using tips from this thread:


Materials needed for a 5 Gallon Batch

Yeast: Fermentis Saflager S-23 (Ideal Fermentation Range 53F)
1lb Rye Malt
.5 lbs Honey Malt
.5 lbs of Crystal 120L (Get rid of the tartness and add sweetness)
1 oz of torrified wheat (head retention)
4 Gallons of apple juice
1 lbs of DME
1 lbs of Brown Sugar
0.5 oz of Cascade Hops
2-3 lbs Honey

I wanted to make an Applejack Cider. A long time ago there was a whisky called Applejack and it just consisted of Rye Malt and Apples.
So I wanted to do something along the lines of that, but not distill it.

Last year in March I made an Apple Pie Cyser and I gave it out for Christmas as presents and it was a huge hit so I decided to mix these 3 elements and I am hoping come December we will have something pretty wonderful tasting.

I am using a Lager yeast -
I went with 1lb of Rye - I am not sure if this is going to be too strong or not, but I wanted to try it out.
Honey Malt to add to the honey flavor I am chasing.
Crystal 120L to add sweetness

Then the 2-3lbs of Honey which I will add directly into my fermentation bucket on top of the wort and apple juice.
So I am kind of doing a Mead/Cider/Lager combo.

As I mentioned I just ordered everything to make this today. If you guys notice anything that might be weird about this let me know, but if not I am going to roll with it and cross my fingers lol.

 

[Snausages01]

Just got finished putting another 5 gallon batch into the fermenter.

The first time I made it, the only change I made to the recipe was that I initially only fermented 4 gallons (1 gallon wort and 3 gallons AJ), and I added the fourth gallon of AJ when I kegged. I kept the keg at 32F and hooked up to CO2 for the remaining time. I did this so I could ferment in a 5 gallon keg, and not have to back sweeten with concentrate. It was drinkable as soon as it was carbonated, but you could almost tell it was blended with fresh AJ. It definitely better/smoother 4-6 weeks after kegging, and is really good around the 7-8 week mark. I’m making the second batch the same way.

 

[Hankhill11]

I've started a 2nd batch of Graff following the original recipe again. Its been fermenting at ~64 degrees for a week and a half. I racked it to a secondary and topped with juice. i'll let it finish and clear before bottling. I think it was 1.008 when racked. The sample tasted pretty good, like the first batch. This recipe got good reviews from those who i shared it with the first time.

 

[762frmafr]

So 2 weeks ago, I made a batch of Graff following the recipe exactly using Mount Rainier hops and Nottingham yeast. Well today, I bottled this batch with 8 ounces of amber DME for priming. Now I am brewing a second batch to go on top of the yeast cake from the first. This new batch is 2.5 gallons wort. 1 pound Chocolate malt, .5 lbs de-bittered black, 2 ounces carapils, 1 ounce willimete hops and topped up with apple juice. All thrown on top of the yeast cake from the first batch. Will let you know how it turns out.

 

[762frmafr]

Oh yeh.... in secondary, I plan to throw in 4 ounces of cacao nibs for about 2 weeks.

 

[zonkman]

Didn't know what to expect, but any expectations I had have been well exceeded. Used Whole Foods juice, Citra and US-05. The balance - sweet, sour, bitter, hoppy - is spot on. Could have easily been fooled into believing this to be a lambic. Cotton candy finish. Hundred miles superior to any cider/apfelwein I've done before. Looking forward to many more versions.

 

[Gilbert Spinning Horse]

Hi all. Just signed up here though I've been lurking for a while now. I thought it fitting that my first post should be to thank Brandon for this superb recipe. I followed the original fairly closely though I used Dark Crystal (435) as I had that sitting around. The people I have shared it with have been blown away by it, doubly so as cider is not something that is produced or drunk here in Brazil. My Graff has been in the bottles for about 8 weeks now and it is absolutely wonderful. I managed to get another brewed up over the weekend, this time using 200g of Carapils and 500g of Crystal 150 to up the malt profile and head retention somewhat.
So cheers Brando, top work mate!

 

[photobrewmufc]

What's the average ABV for this style? I'm brewing one with some co-workers, and we're looking for something easy drinking for the summer. I've seen it clock in around 7%, shooting for 5.5% or 6%.

Cheers.

 

[Hankhill11]

What do you think the longest this can sit on the lees before picking up off flavors? My 2nd batch has been in the same secondary carboy since 5/1 due to a combination of being lazy and not having the time to bottle.

 

[NavinRJohnson48]

Add another 5gal to the count

3.5lbs Vienna
8oz Crystal 60
3oz flaked wheat
1/2oz Cascade
4 gallons Western Family "fresh pressed" apple cider
Nottingham at 68°F

I hope it drinks as good as it smells

 

[Dangeruss]

I left my keg at my friends house that I made over a year ago. I added anise,cloves,allspice,fennel tincture in vodka then I kegged. I am enjoying this and the spice is still pronounce and I put brown sugar in it to put it at 7.1% ABV but it does not taste like it but after 2 I am feeling good. cheers

 

[Brewboz]

Just did the deed. its been in the primary for 4 days used about the same recipe. Thanks man I'm super stoked to keg it up and have a glass

 

[SanPancho]

Didn't know what to expect, but any expectations I had have been well exceeded. Used Whole Foods juice, Citra and US-05. The balance - sweet, sour, bitter, hoppy - is spot on. Could have easily been fooled into believing this to be a lambic. Cotton candy finish. Hundred miles superior to any cider/apfelwein I've done before. Looking forward to many more versions.

So the original recipe, but swapping citra hops and us05 into the mix?

 

[zonkman]

So the original recipe, but swapping citra hops and us05 into the mix?

Yup. Very keen to try other combinations too. In fact, I think it could be interesting to make a little Graf on the side every time I brew.

 

[SanPancho]

Yeah, ive usually got half a gallon left in kettle. Only issue is filtering the trub, but that isnt too bad. Although i guess i could build a biggr mash and just pull from there, although it would still need a boil with some hops.

 

[Brewboz]

Has anyone tried using gelitan on graff before kegging or bottling with good results? Or should i not do that?

 

[SanPancho]

Whats the typical procedure for nutrients? Standard dose? Double?

All in the kettle? Half kettle and half in fermenter?

At about 7 days in i feel like it stalled out on me. I added some more nutrients and it picked up again, so bumping to 72f for 48 hours to finish. Fresh us05 and us04. Was surprised it took that long to begin with, and then the stall just keeps it dragging out.

 

[Brewboz]

I made this about 3 weeks ago its in the keg and is kinda gross.. I followed the recipe to a tee.. I did use yeast nutrient and energizer in the beer part while boiling I used enough for 5 gallons. I went with Nottingham and think 05 would have been better. I am pretty sure 100% sure it would have been better using only apple juice and leave the beer part out.. Still using the ale yeast. It is drinkable but its very tart and dry still has a young cider taste. I mean on a scale of 1-10 is give it a 3. I seen on here a lot of other people getting the same results on here.. Ir Mabry brew 4 gallons of beer and only use 1 gallon apple juice/cider?

 

[Brewboz]

So here's the deal my graff. Its pretty bad tasting and I have 5 gallons of it.. So I want to make it more drinkable. It is tart sour and dry. Question is should I dry hop it or back sweeten it? It is in the keg and carbonated I have drank some of it is say mabey a 12 packish.. And if I back sweeten how much uhh apple juice or hops should I use? I did rack it into a secondary after one week and its been in a keg for a week so does it need to be "stabilized" how can I save it. Its not terrible but its nothing I really enjoy as it is..

 

[BigBlueDog]

So here's the deal my graff. Its pretty bad tasting and I have 5 gallons of it.. So I want to make it more drinkable. It is tart sour and dry. Question is should I dry hop it or back sweeten it? It is in the keg and carbonated I have drank some of it is say mabey a 12 packish.. And if I back sweeten how much uhh apple juice or hops should I use? I did rack it into a secondary after one week and its been in a keg for a week so does it need to be "stabilized" how can I save it. Its not terrible but its nothing I really enjoy as it is..

What was your FG? If you generally followed the original recipe (steeping at > 155F and using DME), then Nottingham/US-05 wouldn't be expected to ferment dry (i.e., < 0.996), producing a tart/dry character. Sour could be a different problem altogether. Individual palates vary though, so you may simply prefer more residual sweetness. Dry hopping isn't likely to help accentuate the sweetness, so you could consider back sweetening with a simple syrup solution or thawed apple juice concentrate.

If you don't know the current SG of what's in the keg and/or don't want to bother with any math, you could just add a small amount apple juice concentrate, mix it in, and sample it. Repeat until the sweetness is to your liking (go slow, so as not to over shoot the desired finish). Note that some who back sweeten cider with apple juice report that it's noticeable at first and tends to blend in after a few weeks. Since you're in a keg and keeping it cold, there's no need to stabilize with potassium sorbate or the like, which is intended to cut down yeast reproduction to avoid re-fermentation when bottling.

 

[Roland_deschain]

Just as an FYI, I had brewed another batch of graff last September, I still have 2 gallons or so in a keg and I tasted it yesterday. It has aged quite well! Still very drinkable and a nice apple aroma.

 

[Brewboz]

What was your FG? If you generally followed the original recipe (steeping at > 155F and using DME), then Nottingham/US-05 wouldn't be expected to ferment dry (i.e., < 0.996), producing a tart/dry character. Sour could be a different problem altogether. Individual palates vary though, so you may simply prefer more residual sweetness. Dry hopping isn't likely to help accentuate the sweetness, so you could consider back sweetening with a simple syrup solution or thawed apple juice concentrate.

If you don't know the current SG of what's in the keg and/or don't want to bother with any math, you could just add a small amount apple juice concentrate, mix it in, and sample it. Repeat until the sweetness is to your liking (go slow, so as not to over shoot the desired finish). Note that some who back sweeten cider with apple juice report that it's noticeable at first and tends to blend in after a few weeks. Since you're in a keg and keeping it cold, there's no need to stabilize with potassium sorbate or the like, which is intended to cut down yeast reproduction to avoid re-fermentation when bottling.

I broke my hydrometer while brewing the beer part. But my final gravity was about 1.003 and yeah I figured I'd hope it would age better. I did use crystal 60 and store bought apple juice. I may make it again someday and use more beer but keep the hop amount the same. I should have bottled some of it to try it in some months. I kinda just want to get it drank and so I can have my keg back

 

[Scientific hippie]

I hope this question hasn't been posed before. I was looking at this thread, and while shopping I noticed Whole Foods has 1 gallon jugs of organic apple juice and smaller ones of Gravenstein and HoneyCrisp juice. Trader Joe's has 1 gallon jugs of unfiltered juice. Which do you think would be good for Graf? I am slowly moving my fermentation interests from kombucha to wine to cider. Is straight beer far behind?

 

[BlongMaster5000Thousand]

I hope this question hasn't been posed before. I was looking at this thread, and while shopping I noticed Whole Foods has 1 gallon jugs of organic apple juice and smaller ones of Gravenstein and HoneyCrisp juice. Trader Joe's has 1 gallon jugs of unfiltered juice. Which do you think would be good for Graf? I am slowly moving my fermentation interests from kombucha to wine to cider. Is straight beer far behind?

Having admittedly only made one batch of graf, but several other ciders, I don't think you could go wrong with any of the choices. Generally a blend of tart and sweet works well but the point of the malts and hops in this graf is to cover and young flavors and sub-par juice, so given that all your choices are high above TreeTop, you'll be fine, so long as none have preservatives. I would go with 2 or 3 of the TJs or WF's 1 gallon jugs as a base, and a couple of Gravenstein and HoneyCrisp to bring to 4 gallons total to round flavors.

Let us know how it goes!