Going all grain, water chemistry question

[mojotele]

So I'm going to give all grain a whirl on my next batch of beer. I've had some success with partial mashing, and I've become pretty well versed on the procedure in general. The thing I'm least versed in is water profiles.

I have the information on my local water:

Calcium - 21 ppm
Magnesium - 6 ppm
Alkalinity as CaCO3 - 44
Sodium - 16 ppm
Chloride - 35 ppm
Sulfate - 16 ppm

It is rather soft and well suited for beers in the dark gold to light amber range (according to Palmer's info). Luckily, the estimated color of my first all grain brew is 12.2 SRM. According to Palmer's spreadsheet, my residual alkalinity should be on the low end of the recommended range. The chloride to sulfate ratio comes out as "very malty." The beer I'm planning to brew is a Fat Tire clone (friend really wants it), so I think that may be appropriate.

My question is - for this first beer, and given the information above, should I even concern myself with the water profile? Or, should I just concentrate on learning the process of mashing and leave things like mash pH, chloride to sulfate ratios, etc. for later batches when I'm more experienced?

 

[ArcaneXor]

Your calcium is a little low, so I would add some CaCO3 when you are looking for a malty, smooth "roundness" to the beer's flavor, and CaSO4 when you are looking to accentuate the hops. Shoot for about 50-100ppm of Calcium.

For pH control in the mash, Five Star's 5.2 is an excellent product.

 

[mojotele]

Thanks for the info, ArcaneXor! I did pick up Five Star's 5.2 on a whim, I'm glad someone else has had good results from it. What you suggest seems simple enough for me to handle

 

[mojotele]

One other question - do you add the salts to just the mash water or all your water? It seems from Palmer's spreadsheet that it is only necessary in the mash water.

 

[mojotele]

I visited the brew science forum and found a lot of my answers there as well as the EZ water adjustment spreadsheet which is a lot more straightforward.

Thanks!

 

[mojo21136]

mojotele - I see you are in the baltimore area. Are your number for Baltimore City/County water? I figure it is easier to just ask you than try to contact DPW.

Thanks!

BTW - Nice avatar!

 

[yeqmaster]

One other question - do you add the salts to just the mash water or all your water? It seems from Palmer's spreadsheet that it is only necessary in the mash water.

The main goal of changing your water chemistry is to change the enzymatic reactions in the mash... Therefore you only need to modify the mash water. However, if you are like me, I change both mash water and sparge water because I am often times trying to imitate a beer from a certain area. If you want your beer to be truly "to style" for that particular beer then all the water should imitate that region.

Do you have any brewing software? If so, use the water chemistry calculator to play around with what you want your target to be...

I have brewed a fat tire clone before. Here is the water profile for Fort Collins, CO:

Ca++: 17 ppm
Mg++: 6 ppm
Na+: 16 ppm
HCO3-:54 ppm
SO4--:16 ppm
Cl-:35 ppm
HDNS:77 ppm

I threw it into a calculator really quick and it looks like the two profiles are pretty darn close! I wouldn't change a whole lot. Maybe throw a little gypsum in there to boost the Calcium level while keeping the Cl to a min... Hope it helps...

 

[joety]

The main goal of changing your water chemistry is to change the enzymatic reactions in the mash... Therefore you only need to modify the mash water. However, if you are like me, I change both mash water and sparge water because I am often times trying to imitate a beer from a certain area. If you want your beer to be truly "to style" for that particular beer then all the water should imitate that region.

Do you have any brewing software? If so, use the water chemistry calculator to play around with what you want your target to be...

I have brewed a fat tire clone before. Here is the water profile for Fort Collins, CO:

Ca++: 17 ppm
Mg++: 6 ppm
Na+: 16 ppm
HCO3-:54 ppm
SO4--:16 ppm
Cl-:35 ppm
HDNS:77 ppm

I threw it into a calculator really quick and it looks like the two profiles are pretty darn close! I wouldn't change a whole lot. Maybe throw a little gypsum in there to boost the Calcium level while keeping the Cl to a min... Hope it helps...

While I love to clone beers, as is obvious by my signature, there is some satisfaction in brewing beers with your own unadulterated water because that's part of having your very own brewery. I still use 5.2 to improve my mash efficiency, but I like the fact that my local water makes my beers my own.

 

[mojotele]

mojo21136 - Yeap, that was for Baltimore. I found it on some other website. I just had the water tested by Ward, though, as I wanted to be sure. Their numbers were pretty close:

Calcium - 22 ppm
Magnesium - 6 ppm
Alkalinity as CaCO3 - 38 pmm
Sodium - 16 ppm
Chloride - 33 ppm
Sulfate - 6 ppm
Bicarbonate as HCO3 - 47 ppm

That's straight out of my kitchen faucet. If the numbers in your name is your zip code, then it's even the same zip code as you (I live in Reisterstown).

As far as the approach I've adopted, I just try and get the residual alkalinity close and use a small dose of 5.2 stabilizer to be sure (like a teaspoon), make sure everything is in the recommended range, and adjust the chloride to sulfate ratio to get a balanced taste between malt and hops (for now). My efficiency in partial mashes hovered around 65%, and I've started seeing 75% since I started messing with water chemistry after going all grain. All the beers I've brewed since I started using this approach are either still fermenting or bottle conditioning so I don't know how they taste. The samples all tasted pretty good, though.

 

[mojo21136]

Mojo - the zipcode is correct. Thanks for the info. It certainly makes it easier and much appreciated!

 

[yeqmaster]

While I love to clone beers, as is obvious by my signature, there is some satisfaction in brewing beers with your own unadulterated water because that's part of having your very own brewery. I still use 5.2 to improve my mash efficiency, but I like the fact that my local water makes my beers my own.

I do agree... there is definitely satisfaction in using your local water to make your own beers unique. So make your own recipes and use local water.

But when somebody is trying to "clone" a beer it usually implies they are trying to imitate that style as close as possible. For example, if you were brewing a czech style pils, you wouldn't want your local water supply that had a ton of mineral content.

 

[sideshow_ben]

I live right in Pikesville so I assume I have the same
soft water. I'm curious what mods you made and how they turned out. Gonna brew and ESB tomorrow so I'm curious how a little chemistry worked out.

 

[mojotele]

Pikesville should be pretty much the same. I just use the EZ water calculator spreadsheet. How much I add of what depends on the beer.

Everything I've made using this method has turned out very well.

 

[mojo21136]

Other Mojo - dumb question - but do you filter your water at all (I'm assuming brita or the like) or do you just use straight from the tap?

 

[Northcalais40]

Not for nothing, but unless you have especially bad water, like it screws with your extract brews, I would just go ahead and brew with it as is. The all grain process is not difficult, but will keep your attention on it's own without adding additional variables.

This is not to say that I consider any of this water building to be a waste of time, I just haven't found a need for it. I have many other variables to dial in with my setup.

Also, I don't have the developed palate that can taste a beer and say "Hmm, needs 17ppm calcium"

 

[mojotele]

I don't filter my water, mojo21136. I use it straight from the tap. If you were to filter it, that would change the ions in the water and therefore the additions that you'd have to make to it.

Northcalais40 - this isn't about building a specific profile or altering the flavor of the beer. This is about getting the pH of the mash correct and about making sure certain elements are present that the yeast needs (calcium and magnesium, for instance). If your pH is off it can really impact your conversion. And, if your yeast isn't healthy, all sorts of nasty things can happen in fermentation.

You can certainly get away with brewing with your water as-is for some brews (unless your tap water's pH is ridiculous). But other brews not so much. What brews those are depends on the specific water profile. Your efficiency can be somewhat inconsistent if you don't pay attention to your water chemistry.

 

[Northcalais40]

My pH is 7.8. I've got hard water. I pay no attention to my water profile insofar as what it could, or what others think it should, be. I do an iodine test for conversion, which takes longer than some people (60-90 min depending on temp). My efficiency is spot on 73%. Don't get too carried away with Palmer's doomsday water scenario.

 

[Bizoune]

To get back to your original question, I'd leave out water adjustments for now. Get you AG process down, experiment a bit and then take a stab at it. Brewing is a pretty forgiving process when it comes to making wort. When you get there, the EZ water adjus. spreadsheet works quite well.

The #1 name of the game is to get your mash in the 5.2-5.4 range in order to get your enzymes in a good mood. After this, it's a question of taste, diff. salts bringing out diff. tastes, either more hoppy or more malty.

 

[mojotele]

FYI, this is a rather old thread that got resurrected. I'm a pretty accomplished all grain brewer now and am comfortable with water chemistry. I do appreciate the help, though

 

[dlc9876]

Quick update on Baltimore water for use in brewing. Over the past year or so (late Oct, 2011 and on), I've had to start filtering ALL of the Baltimore City water I use in brewing. They must have changed the amount or type of chlorine they use to treat the water. For at least 8 months, every batch I brewed came out with a harsh, astringent bitterness. I eventually narrowed the problem down to the water, after first adjusting mash time, temperature, acidity, etc..

I bought an activated carbon filter for use in RVs and run all of my water through it. Haven't had a problem since I started filtering (mid-2012). Anyone else in the Baltimore area experience this issue?

 

[mojo21136]

I bought an activated carbon filter for use in RVs and run all of my water through it. Haven't had a problem since I started filtering (mid-2012). Anyone else in the Baltimore area experience this issue?

I've noticed water flavor here tends to change week to week. I haven't filtered yet but it seems to make sense to me (esp after reading Gordon Strong's book). What filter are you using?

 

[bl00]

Quick update on Baltimore water for use in brewing. Over the past year or so (late Oct, 2011 and on), I've had to start filtering ALL of the Baltimore City water I use in brewing. They must have changed the amount or type of chlorine they use to treat the water. For at least 8 months, every batch I brewed came out with a harsh, astringent bitterness. I eventually narrowed the problem down to the water, after first adjusting mash time, temperature, acidity, etc..

I bought an activated carbon filter for use in RVs and run all of my water through it. Haven't had a problem since I started filtering (mid-2012). Anyone else in the Baltimore area experience this issue?

This is good to know. I've just started brewing, but my first two batches do have a bit of an astringency issue. If it doesn't improve with my skills knowledge, I'll assume its water related.

 

[ArcaneXor]

That should have been CaCl, not CaCO3 in my original response. And I no longer recommend 5.2 because it doesn't work as advertised in many situations.