GFCI FAILURE RATE... up to 57%

[Owly055]

I seem to always step into a hornet's nest when I express my opinion of GFCI versus properly grounded equipment. I'm "anal" about grounding, including redundant grounding. I've installed many GFCI outlets, some breakers, and hooked up several spa panels for friends....... though I don't own a single one. I have a GFCI free house and shop, and I'm not afraid of my electrical appliances and equipment.

Google GFCI failure rate, and you will be shocked at the figures. As high as 57% in some areas, and the failure mode is normally contacts closed (live).

I keep my weapons loaded.........but locked up. I know that if I handle a firearm, it has live rounds in it......... though I don't keep one in the chamber, I assume that I was careless and left one in the chamber. It's easy to rack the bolt or slide enough to see, or pop the cylinder open on a revolver................ Do you do this with your GFCI breaker every time you brew??

To me GFCI provides a false sense of security....... like an "unloaded gun". Is the gun really unloaded? Does the GFCI really work???


H.W.

According to a study conducted by the American Society of Home Inspectors (published in IAEI News, November/December 1999), 21% of GFCI circuit breakers and 19% of GFCI receptacles tested did not provide GFCI protection. Yet, the circuit remained energized! In the examined cases, failures of the GFCI sensing circuits were mostly due to damage to the internal transient voltage surge protection (metal-oxide varistors) that protect the GFCI sensing circuit. This damage resulted from voltage surges from lightning and other transients. In areas of high-lightning activity, such as Southwest Florida, the failure rate for GFCI circuit breakers was more than 57%.

 

[cegan09]

So you avoid them entirely because they could go wrong? I'd rather install all my equipment right, AND have the GFCI outlet so there is the best chance that nothing goes wrong. If i'm testing the GFCI regularly (and I do), there's no reason to eliminate them just because there is a chance they might fail.

 

[thekraken]

Is a 1999 gfci the same as todays gfci? I wonder if the figures would be like for more recent hardware.

 

[Owly055]

So you avoid them entirely because they could go wrong? I'd rather install all my equipment right, AND have the GFCI outlet so there is the best chance that nothing goes wrong. If i'm testing the GFCI regularly (and I do), there's no reason to eliminate them just because there is a chance they might fail.

I am NOT advocating against GFCI.......... I'm saying DO NOT TRUST THEM. I don't have GFCI because I personally don't feel the need. In my case proper grounding provides the same protection with one less system to fail. I do not avoid or eliminate them where they exist, but I don't waste time and money installing them. They are a great thing to have in the kitchen and bathroom....... but I don't keep appliances in either place that can fall into the sink or bathtub, don't have children, and don't stick one hand in dishwater while grabbing the toaster with the other.

Installing your equipment RIGHT as you say you do is the first line of defense.

H.W.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Wait, so shelf stable beef is a success with a 67% failure rate. But GFCI is a failure with a 43% success rate?

 

[itsnotrequired]

i guess i don't get this mindset that gfci offers a false sense of security. i can't speak for everybody but i act the same way around electricity whether it is gfci protected or not. i imagine others act the same way? it seems very odd to me that an individual would use sub-standard installation techniques or operation practices just because there is a gfci.

 

[augiedoggy]

You just don't give up .... It's OK to be wrong once in while... We all are at times. You can rephrase and reinterpret your stance all you want but your just making it worse. People can go back to the beginning of the other thread and see what you were really saying then. It's not really important why your stance and recommendations were wrong.. Just that they are, regardless.

Seatbelts bags and airbags don't always save lives either and condoms aren't 100% foolproof either... So people should just not use them at all??

Your argument is flawed by the statistics already mentioned in the other thread... If so many people really did take them for granted and disregard safety and the danger of electricity when a gfci is in place the amount of deaths would surely gone up instead of way down with your performance statistics... The fact that they have gone down despite the population increasing so much puts in to question the validity of either your numbers of the ones mentioned in the other thread.

 

[UndeadFred]

i guess i don't get this mindset that gfci offers a false sense of security. i can't speak for everybody but i act the same way around electricity whether it is gfci protected or not. i imagine others act the same way? it seems very odd to me that an individual would use sub-standard installation techniques or operation practices just because there is a gfci.

Actually, I've seen multiple people careless with water and 115V electricity in the past and when I've said something they did say, "eh, the GFCI will trip anyway".

So yeah it does happen. Don't have that attitude yourself. A GFCI on a brewing system is like a safety on a gun. I personally would rather have it, but I would never rely on it. And like many carry guns, it's not absolutely necessary for safe operation.

I feel that properly grounded electric (OK.. I'll say it again) with the *secondary* safety of a GFCI is probably safer in the real world than using propane. I'd also say it is pretty safe without a GFCI IF you always verify a ground. I don't think that the GFCIs are so terribly expensive in a spa panel not to add one to the system. In my single kettle system, I use the GFCI breaker itself as the system On/Off (but I get the "you MUST use a contactor" line every single time I state that). So in my case the spa panel cost about as much as a button and a relay (contactor)... so it was free in my system pretty literally.

I do think that a pushbutton test trip circuit from the kettle though a large value (in ohms) resistor to a hot is a good idea, I've been thinking of doing this for at least a year anyway.. so these two threads at least made me decide to add it in the next go around of the design..

Fred

 

[augiedoggy]

I honestly don't think the average person puts thought into one way or the other whether or not the circuit they are using has a GFCI on it. In fact many don't know what they are or even how they work.

 

[BrunDog]

This is a silly topic the OP raised, and I sincerely hope someone doesn't read this thread and think it's ok to obviate a GFCI inline with their brewery. The discussion should never be an either-or. It should be all the safety measures needed, which is both proper grounding and GFCI.

GFCI breakers and receptacles have test buttons. Use them and know they haven't failed.

OP... do what you like, but don't spread irresponsible advice to new users please.

 

[day_trippr]

Bizarre.

 

[Pkrd]

Google GFCI failure rate,

You're #3!
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=GFCI+failure+rate

 

[mattd2]

Grounding doesn't protect against what GFCI protect against. Your statement shows that you don't know everything about electrical safety.
I still stand by my stance on the "trip the gfci" e-stop isn't best practice but that doesn't mean gfci are not a valid safety device. And all gfci should be periodically tested (as per the manufacturer instructions) - that's why they have a test button!

 

[ajdelange]

I seem to always step into a hornet's nest when I express my opinion of GFCI versus properly grounded equipment.

Of course you do. If you go about with a sign on your back that says 'kick me' eventually someone is bound to take you up on your offer. The phrase 'GFCI versus properly grounded equipment' makes it clear that you don't understand what a GFCI is for, how it works or what it is intended to do.

Admins: do you want a sticky on how they work and what they are intended to do? I can put together something and incorporate other peoples' (reasonable) thoughts by edit. As they get asked about a lot this might be a good thing to do.

 

[itsnotrequired]

This is a silly topic the OP raised, and I sincerely hope someone doesn't read this thread and think it's ok to obviate a GFCI inline with their brewery. The discussion should never be an either-or. It should be all the safety measures needed, which is both proper grounding and GFCI.

GFCI breakers and receptacles have test buttons. Use them and know they haven't failed.

OP... do what you like, but don't spread irresponsible advice to new users please.

what should really be taken out of this thread is to test your gfcis regularly. not just your brewing setup but everywhere in your home. i have to admit, this thread inspired me to check my whole house yesterday. i can't remember the last time i checked the gfcis in the kitchen and bathrooms. and everything worked just fine.

 

[TallDan]

GFCI fails much less often in households that don't do crap like this:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=562794
and this:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=504278

 

[BrunDog]

What is your preferred circuit choice?

1: Hot -> Human -> Ground
2: Hot + GFCI -> Human -> Ground

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

What is your preferred circuit choice?

1: Hot -> Human -> Ground
2: Hot + GFCI -> Human -> Ground

The one where I am not part of the circuit?

 

[Jim311]

There are a few people every year who survive car crashes because they weren't wearing their seat belts and are thrown clear of the wreck. But that doesn't mean I'm going to quit wearing my seatbelt. I think OP's point was not to trust GFI, but I seriously don't know anybody who uses electricity so carelessly that they specifically rely on the technology to keep them safe. It's there as a safeguard but that doesn't mean you can be an idiot about it.

 

[TallDan]

There are a few people every year who survive car crashes because they weren't wearing their seat belts and are thrown clear of the wreck. But that doesn't mean I'm going to quit wearing my seatbelt. I think OP's point was not to trust GFI, but I seriously don't know anybody who uses electricity so carelessly that they specifically rely on the technology to keep them safe. It's there as a safeguard but that doesn't mean you can be an idiot about it.

Nope, pretty sure the OP is explicitly stating that he doesn't wear a seatbelt. Then implying that he's safer that way.

I don't own a single one. I have a GFCI free house and shop, and I'm not afraid of my electrical appliances and equipment.