GFCI breaker for 240v heating

[luckybeagle]

I'm putting together an electric brewing system (eHerms). I've got the controller figured out (Auberins Cube), but need to know if this breaker offers sufficient protection.

The setup is going in a detached garage that has its own panel and plenty of space in it:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01D4UHYVU/ref=ox_sc_act_title_7?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1

It doesn't seem like I'll save significantly if I do a spa panel instead, and this seems more simple, so this is currently the most appealing to me. Thoughts?

 

[bgmac]

Is you intended load (heating coil) 7200 watts or less? Is this breaker compatible with your panel? Then yes, this will give you GFCI protection.

You could back the max load by 80% but still can run up to 100%. I say this in case you intend to run a component at 100-120% max load for more then like 3 hours. Then you want to apply the 80% rule for safety due to heat build up in the breaker. Most only run a heating element when brewing for shorter periods such as initial heat of strike water and bringing wort to initial boil temp, then back down the % load to maintain temp or boil. As you can do with the Auber EZ Boil cube.

Its not really backing off the load, just turning it on off based on the EZ boil programming which is like reducing the heat load on the breaker. Sorry, have to put this data in the post or someone with an advanced electrical degree will come on this post and tell me I am wrong.

But yes, this breaker will give you GFCI protection up to 7200 watts at 240 volts.

There really is no cheap 240 volt GFCI option. What you list is what you should use.

 

[luckybeagle]

Is you intended load (heating coil) 7200 watts or less? Is this breaker compatible with your panel? Then yes, this will give you GFCI protection.
....
But yes, this breaker will give you GFCI protection up to 7200 watts at 240 volts.

There really is no cheap 240 volt GFCI option. What you list is what you should use.

Exactly the answer I was hoping for! Thank you!

Yep, 2 heat elements, never used simultaneously, 5500 watts per. Nice to know this will cut the mustard. Can't wait to get this thing up and running!

Thanks again

 

[blasterooni]

30a at 240v will protect 5500w, but you'll need to use a 40a double pole 240v if using 7200w since its amperage will be over 30a.

 

[bgmac]

30a at 240v will protect 5500w, but you'll need to use a 40a double pole 240v if using 7200w since its amperage will be over 30a.

30 x 240 = 7,200 with a pf of 1. I mentioned 80% load for safety if used continuous. Either way, he is good.

Last time on an earlier post on this forum I went straight to the 80% rule and got like 3 people telling me that is only for continuous loads and not what we do in home brewing. So I tried to cover both 100% and 80% on the post.....

 

[augiedoggy]

I'm putting together an electric brewing system (eHerms). I've got the controller figured out (Auberins Cube), but need to know if this breaker offers sufficient protection.

The setup is going in a detached garage that has its own panel and plenty of space in it:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01D4UHYVU/ref=ox_sc_act_title_7?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1

It doesn't seem like I'll save significantly if I do a spa panel instead, and this seems more simple, so this is currently the most appealing to me. Thoughts?

What type of panel is currently in your garage? Some types of breakers are only recommended for some types of panels...

 

[augiedoggy]

Exactly the answer I was hoping for! Thank you!

Yep, 2 heat elements, never used simultaneously, 5500 watts per. Nice to know this will cut the mustard. Can't wait to get this thing up and running!

Thanks again

a 30a breaker would even be enough for the max of 24amp load your describing here so yeah 50a is plenty.

For reference..
I have 30a in my home brewery and heat with my 4500w hlt elements at the same time as my 1800w rims element at the same time all while runing the panel and pumps off the same power circuit... never an issue. I also have a 5500w BK element which never runs at the same time as my HLT or rims and I put NO/NC relays in my panel to prevent this from ever accidentally happening. I have a similar setup at my brewpub where I brew 3bbls at a time and have 10 heating elements all together but only 120a worth of power to feed my control panel.

 

[augiedoggy]

30 x 240 = 7,200 with a pf of 1. I mentioned 80% load for safety if used continuous. Either way, he is good.

Last time on an earlier post on this forum I went straight to the 80% rule and got like 3 people telling me that is only for continuous loads and not what we do in home brewing. So I tried to cover both 100% and 80% on the post.....

What you say is true... and for home brewing the 80% rule would never be needed.. I dont know if you know any but I cant think of a single situation where an off the shelf element/power combination would be used along with the element being one for 3 hours or more at 100% power...

 

[blasterooni]

30 x 240 = 7,200 with a pf of 1. I mentioned 80% load for safety if used continuous. Either way, he is good.

Last time on an earlier post on this forum I went straight to the 80% rule and got like 3 people telling me that is only for continuous loads and not what we do in home brewing. So I tried to cover both 100% and 80% on the post.....

I'm sure he'll be fine, shoot, I've seen many old homes running on 30a-60a panels without too many issues. At any rate, the NEC applies the 80% rule to corded, or plug-in devices. On another note, often a 30a device manufacturerwill require a larger gauge wire, e.g., a 30a ckt, which usually requires #10 will require #8 to avoid heat build up, or to mitigate problems with resistance at start up.

 

[Bobby_M]

I...At any rate, the NEC applies the 80% rule to corded, or plug-in devices. ...

I don't believe that to be so. It applies much more to hard-wired circuits that supply equipment that pulls full load for 3 hours plus at a time (data centers, lighting circuits, assembly line motors). It may apply to branch circuits that ultimately have something portable plugged in with a cord but it's way less likely (electric vehicle charger would be a good example since it charges overnight).

I don't have a single circuit in my house that I'd consider a continuous load. It's possible that someone's brewing style would nudge it towards a 3 hour continuous load but for me it's about 18 minutes to heat the water, then the boil runs at about 3300 watts or less. Even if I brewed 15 gallon batches, it would be 40 minutes of full load to heat water, then an hour rest. The boil even at full load would be one hour.

https://iaeimagazine.org/magazine/2016/may2016/100-vs-80-choosing-the-right-ocpd-solution/

 

[augiedoggy]

The 80% rule actually often used for things like ceiling lighting in office buildings or like Bobby mentioned for an application like a motor or heater that doesnt shut off or vary in output for 3 hrs or longer...
That doesnt mean different electricians dont use it when its not required.

This my understanding of all this (and I could be wrong) The nec rule is also built into UL listed or ETL certified devices that plug in but it does not apply to circuits feeding them which are already speced at 80% of true capacity with their advertised ratings.
Case in point, a desk lamp thats says 60w bulb max is actually built with components that can handle more but deregulated to 60w. (some end up sticking 100w bulbs in there anyways). and a 20a home circuit is already wired with components and wiring that can truley handle more but the advertised rating is such that its only 20a the breakers often used normally have a larger surge and allow for more than thier advertised rating for short periods of time to overcome things such as motor or refrigeration compressor startups.. infact the breaker is only rated to handle a percentage of its rated load as continuous or it will eventually heat up and pop.. likely the 80% often used. In my home panel I have an amp meter and I know I have drawn 28amps for varying amounts of time but never close to 3 hrs and the 30a breaker has never once tripped from this.

Heres what I learned in my years of installing commercial and industrial printing equipment and dealing with many electricians over the years.(I am NOT an electrician).
Some electricians are very knowledgeable and some are not some much beyond what they do on a daily basis. Ive talked to electricians that are whizzes at domestic wiring but not so much commercial and also the other way around. Some may know the rules or a familiar with them from school but it seems they dont always know why they are in place and some try to simplify them by erroring on the safe side for everything. And this is something Ive seen a lot of contractors in different fields do.. Error on the safe side by going larger or installing more expensive higher rated equipment than needed. I believe this is done for a couple reasons I can think of.


As far as things like 30a control panels... everything about code Ive read seems to state the opposite of what Blasterooni said but it does depend on the application. As he hinted with startup power there are even contactors and breakers which are rated for different applications such as large motors. for wiring though The ratings depend more upon application and wire insulation than wire gauge.. For example S0 wire for a power cord has a different rating than SJ or an extension cord made with the same gauge wire. Also shorter runs of thhn wire inside of a control panel can be used for larger loads than otherwise allowed in some cases. Again, reasons like this are why personally I think many electricians just use larger components than they have to and pass that cost down to the customer. Its safer, easier for the electrician, and they make more money off the job.
All of this is just my opinion and there very well may be things im missing or dont have quite right.

 

[augiedoggy]

I don't have a single circuit in my house that I'd consider a continuous load. It's possible that someone's brewing style would nudge it towards a 3 hour continuous load but for me it's about 18 minutes to heat the water, then the boil runs at about 3300 watts or less. Even if I brewed 15 gallon batches, it would be 40 minutes of full load to heat water, then an hour rest. The boil even at full load would be one hour.

https://iaeimagazine.org/magazine/2016/may2016/100-vs-80-choosing-the-right-ocpd-solution/

at the end of the day this is the most important aspect of this discussion... When it comes to making beer, unless a homebrewer is doing something wrong, The 80% rule is a non issue here. if there is an issue the breaker is designed to pop and indicate this. the wiring need only be rated to cover the advertised amp load of the components running at one time if in fact they will be running at the max current draw all at once. Most people building controls for this will put in things such as 3 way switches to prevent an unsafe power draw from occuring even momentarily.

 

[bgmac]

at the end of the day this is the most important aspect of this discussion... When it comes to making beer, unless a homebrewer is doing something wrong, The 80% rule is a non issue here. if there is an issue the breaker is designed to pop and indicate this. the wiring need only be rated to cover the advertised amp load of the components running at one time if in fact they will be running at the max current draw all at once. Most people building controls for this will put in things such as 3 way switches to prevent an unsafe power draw from occuring even momentarily.

Agree, the plug in cord is a non issue. Size the wire to the load, in this case, 10 gauge and its good to 30 amps/7200 watts Non-continuous load. I run 5000 watts on 10 gauge wire and every component all the way back to the GFCI breaker stays cool to the touch, (except the SSR) on a 25 foot run.

Disagree with blasterooni, an 8 gauge wire would be overkill on a 30 amp circuit unless the run was greater then 95 feet if concerned about voltage drop, or if aluminum wire was used instead of copper on shorter runs. Don't think many people are installing aluminum wire any more. I would avoid it. Definitely not aluminum in a flexible plug in cord.