Getting started with water adjustments

[RPh_Guy]

My city water come from not one, not two, not even three, but FOUR SOURCES.
For this reason I hesitate to even bother with a water profile because I'm not sure how consistent my tap water can really be if it's coming from a mix of four local sources. Can it vary a lot, locally -- over the course of a year?
Also I'd rather not spend the $42 (if I'm looking at the right thing) if using RO might be better in the long run anyway. I can easily get RO water from a local Walmart and I have a pH meter. I'm trying to decide what's the most economical path to making the best beer.

I fiddled around with https://www.brewersfriend.com/water-chemistry/ trying to see what it would take to build a profile for a porter (1:3 sulfate to chloride, 150-400 alkalinity).

Assuming no minerals in the water, adding 14g baking soda, 3.1g gypsum, and 11g calcium chloride (per 9 gal) yields this:
Ca 109
Mg 0
SO4 51
Na 117
Cl 155
HCO3 297
Alkalinity 244

Alternately, the advice in Yooper's primer sticky looks simple enough. In fact it seems TOO simple because it doesn't provide alkalinity for darker beers .. ??
If I interpreted it correctly for a porter (1 tsp gypsum plus 2 tsp CaCl per 5 gal [british style with roasted malt]) I get this:
Ca 145
Mg 0
SO4 118
Na 0
Cl 169
HCO3 0
Alkalinity 0

I'm willing to put in work figuring this out but I'm struggling figuring out where to start. Hitting an appropriate mash pH is the most important target with regard to brewing water?

Looking at https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/water-profiles/ my local water is probably something like this:
Ca 31-35
Mg 9-10
SO4 10-60
Na 8-13
Cl 15-33
Alkalinity/HCO3 78-119
pH 7.3-8

It would be cool to use my tap water but I don't want to have the profile change unexpectedly.

The free Brun water calculator looks involved. I'm sure it's powerful, does a beginner need all that functionality right away? For every brew?

I hope I've conveyed I don't seem to have a clue yet what I'm doing. Need some newbie guidance please!

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

What is the purpose of adding so much alkalinity via the baking soda? Something on the order of 60 - 80 ppm of alkalinity will likely prove to be adequate for a Porter, though without seeing a complete recipe this is mere speculation.

Also, your overall mineralization appears high to me. OTOH, your "probable" local water looks pretty good.

 

[RPh_Guy]

What is the purpose of adding so much alkalinity via the baking soda? Something on the order of 60 - 80 ppm of alkalinity will likely prove to be adequate for a Porter, though without seeing a complete recipe this is mere speculation.

Also, your overall mineralization appears high to me. OTOH, your "probable" local water looks pretty good.

One page I was reading suggested alkalinity of 150-400 for dark beers. I assume it's to hit a particular mash pH.

5.5 gal batch. 9 gal total water (I think).
FERMENTABLES:
8.5 lb - American - Pale 2-Row (60.7%)
1.5 lb - Rolled Oats (10.7%)
1 lb - German - Munich Light (7.1%)
1 lb - Lactose (Milk Sugar) (7.1%)
1 lb - American - Caramel / Crystal 60L (7.1%)
0.5 lb - German - Chocolate Wheat (3.6%)
0.25 lb - United Kingdom - Chocolate (1.8%)
0.25 lb - United Kingdom - Roasted Barley (1.8%)

You think my tap water with campden would be good? How would I figure that out for myself?

Thank you!

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I would make a batch with your tap water alone to see how it goes. Treat it with a quarter of a crushed Campden tablet to remove any chlorine first though.

 

[jeeppilot]

One page I was reading suggested alkalinity of 150-400 for dark beers. I assume it's to hit a particular mash pH.

5.5 gal batch. 9 gal total water (I think).
FERMENTABLES:
8.5 lb - American - Pale 2-Row (60.7%)
1.5 lb - Rolled Oats (10.7%)
1 lb - German - Munich Light (7.1%)
1 lb - Lactose (Milk Sugar) (7.1%)
1 lb - American - Caramel / Crystal 60L (7.1%)
0.5 lb - German - Chocolate Wheat (3.6%)
0.25 lb - United Kingdom - Chocolate (1.8%)
0.25 lb - United Kingdom - Roasted Barley (1.8%)

You think my tap water with campden would be good? How would I figure that out for myself?

Thank you!

The higher alkalinity for dark beers helps buffer the acidity of the dark, roasted grains. As you said, alkalinity (bicarbonate) is only for achieving a specific pH. Your tap water is more alkaline than mine. Mine is 7.2 and when I brew dark beer, I usually have to use more water than the standard 1.25-1.5 qts/lb mash ratio to buffer the dark grains and get my 5.5 mash pH. With your water pH, you might not need to.

If you haven’t already, check out Bru’n Water. It’s awesome. Put in your grist bill. Put in what you believe you water is. If it shows your pH around 5.3-5.6, just throw in a Campden tablet and a tsp gypsum per 5 gal. Check your mash with your meter and see how close it is. If your mash pH is really close to what Bru’n Water says, don’t worry about the rest. You’re in the zone. [emoji482]

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Waters pH does not strongly correlate to alkalinity. You can assuredly have very high alkalinity without having high water pH. My well water measures only 7.2 pH, but its alkalinity (as CaCO3) is in the range of 330 ppm.

I'm clearly biased, but my 'Mash Made Easy' spreadsheet makes mash pH management a simple task.

 

[Horseflesh]

Contact your water company and ask what the seasonal variation is. When I did that I got a prompt answer.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I think I need CaCl2 at 0.4 gram/gal to decrease my sulfate:chloride ratio to 1:2 (and not exceed 100 ppm Cl).

Mash Made Easy predicts a mash pH of 5.52
Bru'n Water predicts a mash pH of 5.30

Anyone know why these calculator results are so far apart? I'm thinking 5.5 would be ideal.

Both suggested 1.9 mL of lactic acid added to my sparge water.

@Horseflesh Good idea, thanks! I'll add that to my to-do list.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Mash Made Easy predicts a mash pH of 5.52
Bru'n Water predicts a mash pH of 5.30

Anyone know why these calculator results are so far apart? I'm thinking 5.5 would be ideal.

@Horseflesh Good idea, thanks! I'll add that to my to-do list.

The hard reality is that spreadsheet and/or online mash pH assistant software can only make "suggestions" (read that as "educated guesses") based upon a broad series of math-model based internal guesses. And if permitted to guess, my guess (being its author) would be that (among other things) 'Mash Made Easy' presumes less downward pH shift due to added mineralization, as well as less acidity present within the darker classifications of caramel/crystal and roasted type malts. It also presumes more caustic to be present (with respect to the desired mash pH target) in certain types of base malts (with base malt 'type' selectability found as a drop-down in the lower right hand corner).

 

[RPh_Guy]

Results from my first attempt at water adjustment (on a different recipe than I posted earlier)...

Observed mash pH measured at 20 minutes and again at 60 minutes was within 0.01 of the predicted value from Brun Water. Certainly within the margin of error of the pH meter!

I think I have it figured out now.
These seem to be the most critical aspects:
1. Remove chlorine/chloramine.
2. Acidify sparge water.
3. Target mash pH to style.
4. Target sulfate/chloride ratio to style.
5. All minerals below respective maximum levels (dilute first if needed).

Thanks everyone!

@Silver_Is_Money unfortunately MME is way off. I can send more info if it helps.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

@Silver_Is_Money unfortunately MME is way off. I can send more info if it helps.

I'm very glad you have found such success with your particular recipe and one of the software solutions that are available to you. No particular need for sending your recipe and its associated measurement data, as my beta testers followed by many other individuals who use 'MME' have sent me testimonials wherein they detail that they have (often enough, though not always of course) had their best results with MME vs. other software. The many variables involved are broad in scope, and they are indeed subject to change with each lot of malts or grains purchased, as well as with each individual recipe, and even as a consequence of technique, so inevitably there will always be times when a particular recipe and its current constituency of grist and mineral ingredients falls more in line with one software packages educated mash pH guesswork than with other of such available software solutions. But regardless, in all cases the software is only making a multitude of educated internal math model based "guesses", and when the stars happen to align, and reality by chance agrees with an amalgam of averaged internal math model guesses, then bingo, you have (for this one particular incidence) found a match seemingly made in heaven! But in the end, the saddest conclusion one can reach from such a narrow range of testing is to believe that there is sufficient magic within one specific software solution to forego hard measurement going forward for all time and for all future recipes, as so many of us are want to do. Believing that one particular software package is so superior to all others that it supersedes the need for hard measurement (as so many homebrewers clearly choose to do, often based upon reading testimonials such as yours) is IMHO the ultimate tragedy and failure to reason things through and apply proper logic.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I understand what you're saying, and I realize my own testing is too limited to draw any kind of conclusion about superiority.

I definitely plan to continue to measure and adjust mash pH. Jumping through hoops to make great beer is half the fun!

Thanks again!

 

[ajdelange]

The higher alkalinity for dark beers helps buffer the acidity of the dark, roasted grains.

This is a widespread misuse of the term 'buffer' which I am trying to discourage as it misleads readers into thinking that buffering to a particular pH is taking place as it does in the buffers we use to calibrate pH meters, for example. The system (carbonic acid) responsible for alkalinity is capable of buffering but only near pH 6.38 and 10.38. In a mash the dark grains are acidic and thus release protons. The bicarbonate ion (which is responsible for most of alkalinity in most cases) absorbs the protons converting to carbonic acid in the process. True, this also happens in a buffer, but it is much less misleading in this case to say that the alkalinity neutralizes the malt acids than to say that it buffers the mash. If you look at the tiration curve of a mash made with alkaline water you will find no inflection points indicative of 'buffering' at a particular pH.

 

[cire]

This is a widespread misuse of the term 'buffer' which I am trying to discourage as it misleads readers into thinking that buffering to a particular pH is taking place as it does in the buffers we use to calibrate pH meters, for example. The system (carbonic acid) responsible for alkalinity is capable of buffering but only near pH 6.38 and 10.38. In a mash the dark grains are acidic and thus release protons. The bicarbonate ion (which is responsible for most of alkalinity in most cases) absorbs the protons converting to carbonic acid in the process. True, this also happens in a buffer, but it is much less misleading in this case to say that the alkalinity neutralizes the malt acids than to say that it buffers the mash. If you look at the tiration curve of a mash made with alkaline water you will find no inflection points indicative of 'buffering' at a particular pH.

Absolutely so, but a brewer checks his pH meter with calibration solution and has alkalinity in his mash liquor to buffer the pH that would otherwise go through the floor when using dark and crystal malts. Discourage by all means, but why expect brewers to use the same language as chemists? Who came first?

 

[ajdelange]

As my post says the problem lies in that fact that by using the incorrect terminology brewers are deceiving themselves as to what is going on. Just as the labeling on the 5.2 package deceives the consumer into thinking that his mash pH is being regulated so is the person who writes (or, and this is the real problem, reads) "The higher alkalinity for dark beers helps buffer the acidity of the dark, roasted grains." deceived into thinking that his mash pH is being regulated.

Why use the language of the chemist? Because brewers have a pretty good idea as to what buffering means and their understanding is based on the chemists meaning of the term. This is the problem. If no one had a preconception as to what buffering meant, which preconception does not apply in this case, the problem wouldn't exist.

What does who came first have to do with anything? The chemist I suppose as people were interested in the nature of matter long before man settled down into the kinds of society where beer could be produced.

 

[Kent88]

4 different water sources. I'd go with RO as well...

How did this go so long without @mabrungard chiming in?

 

[RPh_Guy]

I think I have a handle on it now. I read through Martin's "water knowledge" and a series of threads here that answered all my questions.

Once I get around to having a chat with my city's water supply folks regarding variability I should have a better idea about how to proceed.

+1 for using chemistry terms correctly

Cheers

 

[ajdelange]

Waters pH does not strongly correlate to alkalinity.

I just can't see a statement like that and walk away without asking "How strongly are they actually correlated?". I have often written that they are 'nearly independent' but never tried to determine how independent they really are. And I had a sort of gut feel that there would be a slight positive correlation. 'Taint so. A search here under "Ward Labs" of course produces quite a bit of data. Analysis of 38 Ward Labs reports indicates a slightly negative correlation between alkalinity and pH. Pearson's r is -0.017. It is clear from this that I should drop 'nearly'. Based on these reports alkalinity and pH are independent.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I just can't see a statement like that and walk away without asking "How strongly are they actually correlated?". I have often written that they are 'nearly independent' but never tried to determine how independent they really are. And I had a sort of gut feel that there would be a slight positive correlation. 'Taint so. A search here under "Ward Labs" of course produces quite a bit of data. Analysis of 38 Ward Labs reports indicates a slightly negative correlation between alkalinity and pH. Pearson's r is -0.017. It is clear from this that I should drop 'nearly'. Based on these reports alkalinity and pH are independent.

I had wondered of this myself, and as can be seen by my calculated response, I was trying to straddle the fence and avoid rocking the boat. Thanks for uncovering sufficient data to finally put the last nail into the pH and alkalinity "correlation" coffin. My gut feel was also in favor of the likelihood for a slight positive correlation.