Getting into water chemistry

[cmoewes]

After a few homebrew club meetings and chatting with some other amateur and professional brewers I've decided that I need to start working into the whole water chemistry aspect of brewing.

I've looked at the bru'n water sheets, Brewers Friend, the water profiles in beer smith and understand the basics.

I got my water report from the municipality (and some other brewers in the same water area).

But the one question I haven't seen an answer for is how much water do I prepare? Do I prepare and adjust my total water usage up to my target chemistry?

Right now, after working out my recipe in BeerSmith I know how much total water I need, I round that up to the nearest whole number and a couple days before brewing I fill up my empty brew buckets (usually need about 9-10 gallons) throw a crushed up campden tablet in each and fill them up.

My natural instinct would be to do that same with the additional salts and gypsum ahead of time bringing the whole volume up to the adjusted chemistry level but then it occurs to me that once I boil that down the additions will be contentrated higher than my target.

Do I just add enough salts and gypsum and stuff to adjust my final volume of base water up to the target profile? Or does the full volume get adjusted up to that profile.

 

[mtnagel]

Why are you using the campden tablets so far in advance? The reaction is basically instantaneous.

Most of the time I do full boil, no sparge BIAB, so I add all my salts to the full amount of water I need right after pouring in the kettles as it's heating up. When I do a sparge step I treat them separately and you can do that in bru'n water.

 

[Quaffman]

Reverse osmosis water and a teaspoon of gypsum or calcium chloride per batch depending on style has worked well for me.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Why are you using the campden tablets so far in advance? The reaction is basically instantaneous.

I was wondering the same thing. I'll give it a few minutes, not a few days.

I tend to go one of two ways depending on my needs.

When I'm doing a simple single infusion mash, I treat mash and sparge water separately, based on their own respective volumes.

When I'm going more complicated mashes (step mash, turbid mash, whatever) or any other reason where I'd feel the need, then I treat the whole volume of water at once.

I look at water profiles as starting, and then the final profile would be something different. If you're worried about over-concentrating in the boil or something, I would worry about your pH only when dealing with your strike/sparge water, and then adjust the sulfate/chloride/etc in the kettle.

 

[Calichusetts]

If your pH stays within a reasonable range, I prefer to treat just my strike water. Some people treat all water, add to the kettle post-mash, etc. Its more about pH than anything. Once you dial that in, you can figure where you need to add your salts to get to your desired levels.

I'd stick with brewers friend to start and get a good grasp of what is going on. Its very straight forward and user friendly. Once you dial it it, you can switch to brun if you want.

 

[McKnuckle]

I calculate the total volume of water needed for the brew. For BIAB, that's used for the mash and then boiled straight away. For a 3 vessel system, there's a mash volume and a sparge volume. But no matter; I just add it all up.

I plug the numbers into the Brewer's Friend water calculator, which has mash and sparge variables and an option to either combine them or keep them separate. I combine them. I then determine the amount of salts to add to the entire volume in order to achieve my desired mash pH and mineral profile. The software is very easy to use.

On brew day, I collect the entire volume of water in a kettle and stir in the salts. Once dissolved, I proceed in whatever fashion the setup demands (BIAB vs. 3 vessel). You don't have to worry about concentrating the salts; they are theoretically part of the water now. So when a portion of the water boils off, so do the salts.

 

[The_Glue]

I calculate the total volume of water needed for the brew. For BIAB, that's used for the mash and then boiled straight away. For a 3 vessel system, there's a mash volume and a sparge volume. But no matter; I just add it all up.

I plug the numbers into the Brewer's Friend water calculator, which has mash and sparge variables and an option to either combine them or keep them separate. I combine them. I then determine the amount of salts to add to the entire volume in order to achieve my desired mash pH and mineral profile. The software is very easy to use.

On brew day, I collect the entire volume of water in a kettle and stir in the salts. Once dissolved, I proceed in whatever fashion the setup demands (BIAB vs. 3 vessel). You don't have to worry about concentrating the salts; they are theoretically part of the water now. So when a portion of the water boils off, so do the salts.

I do the same but i think the salt will concentrate during tho boil otherwise distillation wouldn't work too. My boil off rate is around 33% so i think if i adjust the whole water volume for like 300ppm sulfates it will end up around 400ppm by the end of the boil.

 

[McKnuckle]

Even though the boil does concentrate the salts to some degree (I'm not sure it's uniform and exactly the same as boil off rate), from what I've read it's easier and more consistent to A) Treat your water at the outset to account for mash pH; and B) Not use extreme amounts of salts so you never face a borderline excess condition post-boil.

There is a definite benefit to using the KISS principle with water chemistry. You don't want it to dominate your brewing. You want it to ameliorate flaws in your source water more than anything else, and then to adjust the taste profile to a lesser degree. At least this approach has worked for me, brewing everything from pilsner to stout.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Even though the boil does concentrate the salts to some degree (I'm not sure it's uniform and exactly the same as boil off rate), from what I've read it's easier and more consistent to A) Treat your water at the outset to account for mash pH; and B) Not use extreme amounts of salts so you never face a borderline excess condition post-boil.

There is a definite benefit to using the KISS principle with water chemistry. You don't want it to dominate your brewing. You want it to ameliorate flaws in your source water more than anything else, and then to adjust the taste profile to a lesser degree. At least this approach has worked for me, brewing everything from pilsner to stout.

I'm sure Martin Brungard or AJ DeLange will end up replying to this thread eventually with an answer to what happens to salts in the boil. I want to say that some calcium and some carbonate species would form chalk probably precipitate out, and I'm relatively certain the 50ppm recommended initial calcium accounts for that. So yeah, probably not just linear concentration. Beyond that, I have no idea.

But yes, I completely agree about KISS. I tend to fall on a couple basic water profiles, a profile for hoppy beers, a profile for malty beers, and a profile for more balanced beers, and I adjust the sulfate/chloride accordingly, and every other adjustment is only what I need to reach my desired mash pH.

 

[MX1]

I add Latic acid only, and only add it to my mash water addition after the strike. For my, it is all about the PH.

T

 

[mabrungard]

You certainly can treat all of your brewing water at once prior to the brew day. However, it is important to recognize that mashing water and sparging water can have differing alkalinity needs. Sparging water should always have low alkalinity, but mashing water MIGHT need some alkalinity for styles with significant roast or crystal malts. I suppose one approach might be to treat all the water to a uniform alkalinity that is somewhere near zero (certainly less than 25 ppm). That will be fine for the sparging water. Then you just need to fine tune the mashing water to produce the pH you seek.

 

[cjgenever]

Calculate mash and boil additions and add the salts to those vessels. Never add salts to the HLT unless it is agitated enough to keep the salts in suspension or it is all drained and used at once. The lower ph of the wort is needed to dissolve most brewing salts. Just get your sulfate/chloride ratio right with the correct ph and you're good. Make sure there is enough calcium for the yeast. It is good if you can control it to the point that the water book, but all you NEED is the ratio and ph

 

[mabrungard]

For some clarification, the sulfate/chloride ratio is not a good indicator nor a good guide for brewing water. In fact, it can easily be misinterpreted when either concentration of those ions are very low or very high. When the chloride concentration is between about 25 and 100 ppm, the ratio can provide some reasonable guidance regarding how the water will affect the beer. Outside that range, not so useful!

Another clarification is that ALL the common minerals employed in brewing are very soluble in plain water at the concentrations we typically use in brewing. Low pH is not required. While many of those minerals don't instantly dissolve in water, with a little mixing and time, they do dissolve completely. Do remember to keep mixing!

One important additional message is that chalk is not a reliable mineral for increasing alkalinity in brewing water and should not be used in most cases (that is why I mention that all common minerals are very soluble).

 

[cjgenever]

They dissolve our you need to keep mixing? which is it? Just because you don't see that fine powder in suspension doesn't mean it is dissolved. It is temporarily suspended due to agitation and will fall out of suspension. It is not dissolved (except for a few minerals that will dissolve).

Chloride to sulfate ratio isn't an indicator of a water's usefulness for brewing, it is an important consideration that must be addressed. I can make two different beers just by adjusting that ratio.

Chalk is a poor choice to add alkalinity unless you need calcium. If you don't need chloride or sulfate additions but do need calcium and alkalinity you can use chalk to up your calcium with a small boost to alkalinity. Then finish boosting alkalinity with baking soda.

 

[ajdelange]

They dissolve our you need to keep mixing? which is it?

Yes.

All the salts we commonly use in brewing except calcium carbonate and gypsum (calcium sulfate) are very soluble in water and quickly and readily go into solution. Calcium carbonate just won't dissolve (unless acid is added) and gypsum, while soluble to more than the extent we ever use it (2.4 g/L) dissolves more slowly than, say, CaCl2 (1245 g/L) or sodium bicarbonate (969 g/L).

Just because you don't see that fine powder in suspension doesn't mean it is dissolved. It is temporarily suspended due to agitation and will fall out of suspension. It is not dissolved (except for a few minerals that will dissolve).

As noted, gypsum is the only one of the common salts where this is likely to actually happen. Note that gypsum dissolves better in cold water than hot so add it to cold if you can, stir it well and check that there is no settlement.

Chloride to sulfate ratio isn't an indicator of a water's usefulness for brewing, it is an important consideration that must be addressed. I can make two different beers just by adjusting that ratio.

Of course you can. Beers made with 50 mg/L each of chloride and sulfate will be different from beers made with 100 mg/L chloride and 50 mg/L sulfate but beers made with 200 mg/L chloride and 200 mg/L sulfate will not, ceteris paribus, be the same as those made with 50 mg/L each. IOW it is not the ratio which determines what the beer tastes like but rather the absolute amounts of each. There are two degrees of freedom - not one.

Chalk is a poor choice to add alkalinity

Period.

..unless you need calcium. If you don't need chloride or sulfate additions but do need calcium and alkalinity you can use chalk to up your calcium with a small boost to alkalinity. Then finish boosting alkalinity with baking soda.

To do so you will have to add enough acid to get the stuff dissolved and the carbonate ions converted to bicarbonate ions. The problem with trying to do this in brewing is that the reactions take a long time so that the 'finish boosting with bicarbonate' turns out to give you an unexpected gift when the unconverted carbonate finally starts to supply the wanted alkalinity hours later and your final mash/wort pH goes too high.

 

[cjgenever]

ajdelange,

If I am, in fact, conversing with THE AJ Delange I bow. <We're not worthy>.

I have great respect for your deep interest in the science of beer.

Where should I go for documents supporting your claims as many of them directly contradict info provided by Palmer in his books and the 'water ganza'? I see your water primer available on HBT via Google search and will read through it this weekend if I have time (I'm building a diy peristaltic pump and aquaponics system this weekend

 

[ajdelange]

Probably the best place to start would be John's new book 'Water'. He is for the most part now on board with this newer thinking.

 

[cjgenever]

Ok thx. I have only read the parts that related to my immediate needs. The water follow up show was immediately before the release of the book and Palmer did mention some changes to his precise statements but not the things you mentioned. I'll read further.

I haven't had an issue with alkalinity sneaking up on me because I'm always on the low side of my ph. My water has so little of anything I actually need to build up for pale lagers and am carefully conservative with my salts.

 

[cmoewes]

Wow. If I can find the emojii of my mind blown I would use it.

Thanks for all your discussion though it did start to go over my head at some point. I'll have to go back and reread it with my notebook so I can keep some references.

I just bought the Malt book but maybe I should pick up Water and read that first.

The upside for me is I am on the same Municipal water supply as many of the local craft breweries (Surly, Fulton, Dangerous Man) so I've pumped them for what they do which seems to be minimal.

For now I am using the EZ_water_calculator and looks like 6g of gypsum and 1g of Calcium Chloride plus 3 ounces of acid malt will keep me in the sweet zone for my Dubbel on Saturday, although no additions seems to have me pretty close to the 5.4-5.6 range according to EZ water calculator.

It seems that one of the (many) ways to move up from making good beers to making great beers is a deeper understanding of the water.

Thanks again.

 

[d3track]

Where in the city are you? Always looking for other brewers to in my corner of the city.

 

[cmoewes]

Where in the city are you? Always looking for other brewers to in my corner of the city.

I'm over in Crystal, spitting distance from Surly's Brooklyn Center location (can't bring myself to say the "Old Surly Brewery").

 

[d3track]

I'm over in Crystal, spitting distance from Surly's Brooklyn Center location (can't bring myself to say the "Old Surly Brewery").

Gotcha, but you get the Minneapolis water supply out there?

 

[cmoewes]

Gotcha, but you get the Minneapolis water supply out there?

Yeah. I lot of the inner ring suburbs buy their water from Minneapolis