Getting down the all-grain process.

[Robin0782]

So I've done two all grain batches now. The first one I ended up with about 62% total brew-house efficiency and yesterdays brew 61% total according to Beersmith. I know people say it's more important to be consistent, but I'd really like to improve this. I tightened my mill from .039 to .035 for the second batch. Both batches had too much sparge water, which is clearly my fault. The first batch was worse, but I really thought I got it right on the second batch, and even allowed my pre-boil volume to go .25 gallons over planned. The siphon stopped, but I still had another .25 gallons in the mash tun reading at 1.028. I guess maybe I should have tipped the tun to get that out?

I did an extra long boil to get it down to the correct final volume, so I dunno. I'm brewing again this weekend and really want to hit a higher efficiency. I guess maybe I shouldn't fixate on it, so I can create my recipes accurately hitting the OG I want to, but I just feel like I should be doing better than this, and I cannot figure out the problem besides water volumes. I don't know if I'm miscalculating dead-space, grain absorption, or if I'm just adding too much water because I can't figure out Beersmith. Sorry if I'm rambling, and I know efficiency has been covered ad nauseam on here.

 

[Yooper]

If your final runnings were 1.028, you still had a lot of sugar that you left behind and that is why your efficiency is low.

There are some fixes- and the first would be to correct any volume issues.

Are you batch sparging? What is your technique? It seems long winded to say "I add 4 quarts of water, stir well, blah blah blah, but that can help us find any potential problems and give you some tips, if you can give us the step-by-step info.

 

[pabloj13]

What's your water like?

 

[Golddiggie]

What are you using for a mash tun? What's your grain to water mash ratio? Are you 100% sure you got out ALL the clumps when you did the dough-in?? Before you start adjusting the mill, I'd confirm that your other processes are sound. How long did you mash for? At this point, you should plan to do a conversion test before you mash out/sparge.

 

[Jakeintoledo]

As was said above, you left a lot of sugar in the tun. I'd also ask about sparge time. not from personal experience, but I know others have pointed to sparge time as a way to increase efficiency.

 

[Robin0782]

I'll try to be as thorough as I can here.

I use a 10 gallon round Rubbermaid cooler mash tun with a SS braid.

Not sure what my water profile is, but I'd guess it's somewhat hard... I get some buildup in my faucets. Nothing excessive though. At my local shop they said they never adjust their water. I take what they say with a grain of salt usually, though.

Here's a rundown of yesterday's brewday.

I measured 4.5 gallons of strike water for my 14.15 lbs of grain. That's 1.27 quarts per lb. My measuring may not be dead on perfect, but it's certainly close. I marked my mash paddle after adding 1/2 gallon of water at a time to my brew kettle.

So I heated the water to 164°F and poured into the pre-heated mash tun. Added the grain and stirred for about 2 or 3 minutes. Temp was perfect at 152°F. After 20 minutes I opened it up and stirred for maybe 30 seconds. Then I let it rest another 40 minutes. Temp was still at 151°F after the 60 minute mash.

So then I vorlaufed about 3/4 gallon, poured back into the mash tun, and drained the mash tun until the siphon stopped. My valve was only open about 40-50%. I didn't time it, but probably about 10-15 minutes or so at most. Checked the volume, it was at 2.75 gallons. So that should be 1.75 gallons absorption.

I poured in 4.75 gallons of sparge water at 180°F. I stirred for at least 3-4 minutes. 2.75 + 4.75 = 7.5 gallons which is what I wanted. Vorlaufed, drained until the siphon stopped and measured 7.75 gallons. Boiled an extra 10 minutes, got down to 6 gallons, lost .5 gallons to trub/cooling. Put 5.5 gallons in the fermenter.

After I was done I tilted the mash-tun and drained another .25 gallons and measured that at 1.028.

Recipe was:

12.5 lbs pale malt
1 lb Munich
.5 lbs Carafoam
2.5 oz Crystal 120

Nugget to bitter, a bunch of Centennial late additions and US-05. Citra dry hops coming up.

I mean it's still going to be a nice beer, I got 1.057 and should reach 1.010 or lower. So I should still get a bit over 6%. But I wanted a 7% beer.

Thanks for any and all advice.

 

[pabloj13]

I'll try to be as thorough as I can here.

I use a 10 gallon round Rubbermaid cooler mash tun with a SS braid.

Not sure what my water profile is, but I'd guess it's somewhat hard... I get some buildup in my faucets. Nothing excessive though. At my local shop they said they never adjust their water. I take what they say with a grain of salt usually, though.

Here's a rundown of yesterday's brewday.

I measured 4.5 gallons of strike water for my 14.15 lbs of grain. That's 1.27 quarts per lb. My measuring may not be dead on perfect, but it's certainly close. I marked my mash paddle after adding 1/2 gallon of water at a time to my brew kettle.

So I heated the water to 164°F and poured into the pre-heated mash tun. Added the grain and stirred for about 2 or 3 minutes. Temp was perfect at 152°F. After 20 minutes I opened it up and stirred for maybe 30 seconds. Then I let it rest another 40 minutes. Temp was still at 151°F after the 60 minute mash.

So then I vorlaufed about 3/4 gallon, poured back into the mash tun, and drained the mash tun until the siphon stopped. My valve was only open about 40-50%. I didn't time it, but probably about 10-15 minutes or so at most. Checked the volume, it was at 2.75 gallons. So that should be 1.75 gallons absorption.

I poured in 4.75 gallons of sparge water at 180°F. I stirred for at least 3-4 minutes. 2.75 + 4.75 = 7.5 gallons which is what I wanted. Vorlaufed, drained until the siphon stopped and measured 7.75 gallons. Boiled an extra 10 minutes, got down to 6 gallons, lost .5 gallons to trub/cooling. Put 5.5 gallons in the fermenter.

After I was done I tilted the mash-tun and drained another .25 gallons and measured that at 1.028.

Recipe was:

12.5 lbs pale malt
1 lb Munich
.5 lbs Carafoam
2.5 oz Crystal 120

Nugget to bitter, a bunch of Centennial late additions and US-05. Citra dry hops coming up.

I mean it's still going to be a nice beer, I got 1.057 and should reach 1.010 or lower. So I should still get a bit over 6%. But I wanted a 7% beer.

Thanks for any and all advice.

Couple things.

You can use much hotter water to sparge. You want the grain bed to reach 170. For me, I can use water at 190-195 and still just hit 170 in the grain bed.

I'd definitely get your water chemistry under control. It's unlikely that that's your main problem since you left so much sugar behind, but it can't hurt.

Stir, stir, stir.

 

[Robin0782]

So how do I get the rest of that sugar out? Use less sparge water?

 

[pabloj13]

So how do I get the rest of that sugar out? Use less sparge water?

Nah, the numbers you reported look good. I try to mash at 1.25 if I can. The more sparge water the better, but 4.75 is plenty. If you stirred a lot then you're really just looking at conversion efficiency (iodine test, check your water) and sparge.

Increasing the temp could help some. The thing with batch sparge is that there shouldn't be a difference at the start of the sparge versus final runnings. That would be a lot of gallons of 1.028 wort. I think I would start by making sure your conversion is complete.

 

[cockybitz]

I'll try to be as thorough as I can here.

I use a 10 gallon round Rubbermaid cooler mash tun with a SS braid.

A manifold of any type will probably help a good deal

Not sure what my water profile is, but I'd guess it's somewhat hard... I get some buildup in my faucets. Nothing excessive though. At my local shop they said they never adjust their water. I take what they say with a grain of salt usually, though.

Dublin has very hard water. Pils has very soft. This should have little relevance. If you get conversion, it is good enough, and at 65% you are having conversion

Here's a rundown of yesterday's brewday.

I measured 4.5 gallons of strike water for my 14.15 lbs of grain. That's 1.27 quarts per lb. My measuring may not be dead on perfect, but it's certainly close. I marked my mash paddle after adding 1/2 gallon of water at a time to my brew kettle.

So I heated the water to 164°F and poured into the pre-heated mash tun. Added the grain and stirred for about 2 or 3 minutes. Temp was perfect at 152°F. After 20 minutes I opened it up and stirred for maybe 30 seconds. Then I let it rest another 40 minutes. Temp was still at 151°F after the 60 minute mash.

So then I vorlaufed about 3/4 gallon, poured back into the mash tun, and drained the mash tun until the siphon stopped. My valve was only open about 40-50%. I didn't time it, but probably about 10-15 minutes or so at most. Checked the volume, it was at 2.75 gallons. So that should be 1.75 gallons absorption.

Seems a bit high. You probably have a good deal at the bottom of the mash tun

I poured in 4.75 gallons of sparge water at 180°F.

Try less at a time and do more batches of sparge. Just enough to cover the gran should suffice

I stirred for at least 3-4 minutes.

Just stir 60 seconds, wait 60 for the grain to settle and begin to vorlauf again

2.75 + 4.75 = 7.5 gallons which is what I wanted. Vorlaufed, drained until the siphon stopped and measured 7.75 gallons. Boiled an extra 10 minutes, got down to 6 gallons, lost .5 gallons to trub/cooling. Put 5.5 gallons in the fermenter.

After I was done I tilted the mash-tun and drained another .25 gallons and measured that at 1.028.

Recipe was:

12.5 lbs pale malt
1 lb Munich
.5 lbs Carafoam
2.5 oz Crystal 120

Nugget to bitter, a bunch of Centennial late additions and US-05. Citra dry hops coming up.

I mean it's still going to be a nice beer, I got 1.057 and should reach 1.010 or lower. So I should still get a bit over 6%. But I wanted a 7% beer.

Thanks for any and all advice.

1.028 seems really high on residual sugar left on the grain. Doing 4 batches of sparge I get over 90%. Recording efficiency from each sparge I get
1st)50%
2nd)20%
3rd)11%
4th)10%, or something relatively close to that.
Each sparge I get about 2 gallons of wort, giving me 8 gallons to start my boil.

 

[Yooper]

The beauty of batch sparging is that it's quick- you don't need to have the valve 40% closed (or open).

The best way to get your volume right and to get most of the sugars out would be like this:

1. Mash as you did. Vorlauf and drain. (Drain quickly, wide open).
2. Measure those runnings. If you need 6.5 gallons to start your boil, as an example, and you measure 2.5 gallons, you know you need 4 gallons for the sparge no matter what Beersmith says. Write down how much you actually need, so you can tweak Beersmith later.
3. When you add your sparge water, stir like you mean it. Then stir some more. Stir again- you can not stir your sparge water addition too much! The whole premise of batch sparging is to "knock" those sugars out of there and into the liquid.
4. When you're done stirring, vorlauf and drain. Quickly. Wide open.

That's it!

If you had only a cup of wort left in the MLT (your dead space), that's nothing to worry about. Using a braid is fine for batch sparging, so that's ok too.

 

[Robin0782]

Thanks for the replies. I'm brewing again this weekend, so I will definitely take some steps suggested and see what happens. I will start out with a longer mash, to ensure conversion. I will bring my sparge water to at least 190, and probably stir for 10 minutes after adding it. I'll try multiple batch sparge additions this time and see what that does for me. I'd love to just be able to hit 70 or 75% consistently.

A question about the multiple sparges... If I only need say, 4 gallons of sparge water total, should I do 2 gallons twice? Or maybe 3 gallons and then 1 gallon? Is there a right and wrong way to do it? I'm going to be using 16.1 lbs of grain for this batch and I want to hit 1.070, finishing at 1.020. 67% efficiency would get me to 1.070. I'm almost afraid I may overshoot if I do a really good job and all these techniques help out a lot.

 

[BrewinHooligan]

I can't comment on multiple sparges as I just do a single sparge. I did notice that I got around a 5% bump in efficiency when I mashed a little thinner, so I mash at 1.5 qts/lb now YMMV. I use a cooler with a stainless braid and usually get around 70-75% efficiency. Like you have mentioned though, consistency is the most important thing.

 

[cockybitz]

Larger amount for first sparge, if you must. As I said, just add enough water to cover the grain.

 

[Straight6TT]

The beauty of batch sparging is that it's quick- you don't need to have the valve 40% closed (or open).

The best way to get your volume right and to get most of the sugars out would be like this:

1. Mash as you did. Vorlauf and drain. (Drain quickly, wide open).
2. Measure those runnings. If you need 6.5 gallons to start your boil, as an example, and you measure 2.5 gallons, you know you need 4 gallons for the sparge no matter what Beersmith says. Write down how much you actually need, so you can tweak Beersmith later.
3. When you add your sparge water, stir like you mean it. Then stir some more. Stir again- you can not stir your sparge water addition too much! The whole premise of batch sparging is to "knock" those sugars out of there and into the liquid.
4. When you're done stirring, vorlauf and drain. Quickly. Wide open.

That's it!

If you had only a cup of wort left in the MLT (your dead space), that's nothing to worry about. Using a braid is fine for batch sparging, so that's ok too.

Why do so many people say that sparging should be done so slowly? Most say it should take 45 minutes or more to get the water out?

 

[Bobby_M]

Because those people are fly spargers and incorrectly attribute best practices of that process to all sparge types.

 

[Robin0782]

Well, I'm wrapping up brew day. Very disappointed in myself. It's starting to look like I am just using too much water. I ended up with 5.9 gallons after cooling and, ugh. I only put about 5.6 into the fermenter. Hit 1.064 which is about 62% efficiency... I wanted 1.070. Still had final runnings of maybe a 1/4 gallon and something like 1.030. I didn't really measure it exactly. It was hot and at 1.025ish so I know it's higher. I think my sparge began to get stuck near the end as well. It stopped and I could see some liquid above the grain still, it wasn't level though. So, I poured in some hot water to try and get it moving, stirred, vorlaufed.... I feel so frustrated right now. Still will make beer, though I guess. Next beer I'm bringing down the preboil volume. I've been shooting for 7.5 gallons, so I'm going to try 7 and a somewhat less vigorous boil maybe.

 

[pabloj13]

Well, I'm wrapping up brew day. Very disappointed in myself. It's starting to look like I am just using too much water. I ended up with 5.9 gallons after cooling and, ugh. I only put about 5.6 into the fermenter. Hit 1.064 which is about 62% efficiency... I wanted 1.070. Still had final runnings of maybe a 1/4 gallon and something like 1.030. I didn't really measure it exactly. It was hot and at 1.025ish so I know it's higher. I think my sparge began to get stuck near the end as well. It stopped and I could see some liquid above the grain still, it wasn't level though. So, I poured in some hot water to try and get it moving, stirred, vorlaufed.... I feel so frustrated right now. Still will make beer, though I guess. Next beer I'm bringing down the preboil volume. I've been shooting for 7.5 gallons, so I'm going to try 7 and a somewhat less vigorous boil maybe.

Did you account for the volume difference with your efficiency measurement? If you had the right volume you would have hit 1.075 (assuming you were shooting for 5 gallons).

 

[Robin0782]

Did you account for the volume difference with your efficiency measurement? If you had the right volume you would have hit 1.075 (assuming you were shooting for 5 gallons).

I like to put 5.5 in the fermenter. So, I suppose I would have hit my OG if I'd have boiled it down another .4 gallons or so. That's why I figure I must be just using too much water in the first place.

 

[pabloj13]

I like to put 5.5 in the fermenter. So, I suppose I would have hit my OG if I'd have boiled it down another .4 gallons or so. That's why I figure I must be just using too much water in the first place.

It sounds like you are not as bad off as you think. Just need to work on your volumes (I am in the same boat). FTR, I seem to always have a little water on top of the grain bed at the end, but the rest of the bed is drained.

 

[mccabedoug]

I'd look at the crush.

Yes, get your volumes down, but in addition I would take a serious look to see if your crush is fine enough.

For me, I am less concerned with my absolute efficiency but I am very concerned that my efficiencies are consistent, batch to batch. If I wanted a slightly higher OG, I'll just use an extra pound or two of grain. In most batches I typically use 11 lb of grain and always get an OG of ~1.054 (app. 75%, I think).

 

[Robin0782]

UPDATE: Brewed an IPA today, 73% total efficiency!!! That's a 12% increase over my last 2 batches. Thrilled. I hit 1.067 which is bit high from what I intended. I used less sparge water this time, and I also brought my mill gap down to .032. I noticed I had some completely uncrushed grains when I started to mill, so I tightened it up a bit and I think it helped a lot.

 

[petree3]

The beauty of batch sparging is that it's quick- you don't need to have the valve 40% closed (or open).

The best way to get your volume right and to get most of the sugars out would be like this:

1. Mash as you did. Vorlauf and drain. (Drain quickly, wide open).
2. Measure those runnings. If you need 6.5 gallons to start your boil, as an example, and you measure 2.5 gallons, you know you need 4 gallons for the sparge no matter what Beersmith says. Write down how much you actually need, so you can tweak Beersmith later.
3. When you add your sparge water, stir like you mean it. Then stir some more. Stir again- you can not stir your sparge water addition too much! The whole premise of batch sparging is to "knock" those sugars out of there and into the liquid.
4. When you're done stirring, vorlauf and drain. Quickly. Wide open.

That's it!

If you had only a cup of wort left in the MLT (your dead space), that's nothing to worry about. Using a braid is fine for batch sparging, so that's ok too.

I wish I had read this before my first couple of AG batches, would have saved a lot of headaches. Solid info, good on ya Yooper