gelatin finings?

[HomeBrew32]

Quote:
Originally Posted by crlova2
If I have my beer already cold crashed is it too late to add gelatin?

Nope....works better cold

I guess this was wrong then?

 

[HomeBrew32]

I've done this three times now to lighter ales, but always when they were already cooled in the keg and then stayed refrigerated. 36-48 hrs usually did the trick. I tried this method once in a conical fermenter at room temp and it seemed like the gelatin was beaded up and floating around in the beer. So, I'm not sure if the cool temp is an essential element.
Re-reading your thread, it sounds like it's still refrigerated right? Worst case scenario, you rack the beer to another container, preferably using a mesh bag to filter/catch the gelatin and go from there. Most people I've heard don't bother with filtering stouts. Even if you hold a pint of Guinness up to a spotlight, it's still hard to see through it....but you already know that. I'd try to re-rack and if you have the time, let it sit for a week to see if it clarifies a bit

Well I didn't see your post and I racked it to a keg and started carbing. Now I have tapped off maybe 1/2 a pint a day for 4 days to see how the carbing is going and each one have some gelatin pieces in the bottom. The carboy seemed to have a layer of gelatin on the bottom when I racked so I am not sure if I sucked up a little loose gelatin that was floating on the top. Anyway, should I keep tapping off a little each day to get all the gelatin out or should I try and rack it to another keg even though it has already been carbing? Any help would be appreciated because I don't want to trash this batch.

 

[BrewerDon]

I know that this thread has been quiet for a long time but I thought I'd add some information that was helpful to me. I'm going by memory but this info comes from "New Lager Brewing" by Greg Noonan.

He says to mix 1 gram of unflavored gelatin with 2 ounces of cold water for every gallon of beer that you are fining. So for a 5 gallon batch mix 5 grams of gelatin in 10 ounces of cold water. Let the mixture hydrate for an hour. Next, heat the mixture up to 150 -160 degrees to dissolve the gelatin. Do not let the mixture cool below 120 degrees before adding to your beer. After adding it to the beer, gently stir the beer to mix in the gelatin solution for 2 to 3 minutes. He says that the beer will clear in about 14 days at 50 degrees.

 

[Desertups]

I've only done this once (my first kegged beer) but it seemed to work very well. After cold crashing in secondary for 48 hours I did the following:

1 Tbsp of knox gelatin in 1/2 cup cold water, covered and let sit for 30 min. Boiled 1/2 cup of water in the microwave. Dumped hot water into cold water gelatin mixture. Gelatin appeared to instantly dissolve, no additional mixing seemed necessary.
Poured gelatin mixture into sanitized keg.
Racked beer on top.
Sealed, added CO2 and put in kegertor.
1 week later, I opened up the tap until beer was clear (about 1 cup). Had a nice layer of gelatin/sediment. Beer is crystal clear.

 

[BierMuncher]

Well I didn't see your post and I racked it to a keg and started carbing. Now I have tapped off maybe 1/2 a pint a day for 4 days to see how the carbing is going and each one have some gelatin pieces in the bottom. The carboy seemed to have a layer of gelatin on the bottom when I racked so I am not sure if I sucked up a little loose gelatin that was floating on the top. Anyway, should I keep tapping off a little each day to get all the gelatin out or should I try and rack it to another keg even though it has already been carbing? Any help would be appreciated because I don't want to trash this batch.

Your beer is doing fine as is. Some sedimentation will occur in a chilled keg, no matter how clear the beer appeared out of the fermenter. If your dip tube is resting directly on the bottom of the keg, it will continue to pick up any sediment. Soda kegs were designed to pick up every last ounce of syrup and as such, the dip tubes typically touch the bottom of the keg. Remove your dip tube, put it over your knee and give it a sharper bend to elevate the bottom about 1/2 inch of the bottom. This will help you avoid that final layer of sediment. If you have a straight dip tube, simply cut off about a 1/4 inch or so.

 

[C-Rider]

I read about 4 of the 10 pages and didn't see an answer to my question, so....

I don't use a secondary so can I add it to the primary say 4 days before bottling and bottle condition at 70? Will the gelatin do anything at that temp?

If i bottle condition for my 3 normal weeks and then cold crash the bottles for a few days before drinking will that work???

 

[Biobrewer]

So, everything I read said to get the knox to 170 but do not boil. I was so afraid of boiling I only got it to about 130. Is this bad?

Boiling somehow destroying the function of gelatin is a common misconception that people who are largely unfamiliar with protein science tend to have. As a molecular scientist who works in protein chemistry in the Bay Area, I can tell you outright that boiling the gelatin will not affect the performance. This is due in large part to two things:

1) Gelatin is simply hydrolyzed collagen, and is often produced by boiling source material rich in collagen in a mild acid to encourage hydrolysis. Boiling is an actual step that speeds up hydrolysis that many manufacturers use.

2) Collagen, and therefore gelatin, is a protein/peptide based material. So, while boiling (or even heating to 180 F) would affect the structure, the structure is not what results in the clearing effect seen with the use of gelatin as a fining agent.
The approximate amino acid composition of gelatin is: glycine 21%, proline 12%, hydroxyproline 12%, glutamic acid 10%, alanine 9%, arginine 8%, aspartic acid 6%, lysine 4%, serine 4%, leucine 3%, valine 2%, phenylalanine 2%, threonine 2%, isoleucine 1%, hydroxylysine 1%, methionine and histidine <1% and tyrosine <0.5%. The clearing effect of gelatin arises due to the fact that, at the pH of beer, the collagen is highly positively charged, allowing it to bind to negatively charged molecules/cells. The positive charge arises NOT because of structure, but because:
- the pH is slightly higher than the pKa of side chains (carboxylic acids) on aspartic acid and glutamic acid, making them negatively charged, but only slightly so, as the pH of beer is only slightly higher than the pKa of these acid sidechains.
- the pH is significantly lower than the pKa of sidechains (primary and secondary amines) on proline, hydroxyproline, arginine, lysine, and hydroxylysine, making them very positively charged. The positive charge resulting from these residues is not only enough to offset the small amount of negative charge on the glutamic and aspartic acids, but it is sufficiently high enough to give a large positive charge to the overall gelatin molecules.

The remainder of the amino acids in the structure have primarily hydrophobic side chains, and do not result in contribution to charge.

So, if you have been boiling your gelatin, fear not. It should have no affect on the ability of gelatin to fine your beer. The pH of your beer (it will be more acidic than in the kettle if you fermented at all) and the temperature at which you store the beer after adding the finings (< 40F prefferably) are the 2 most important factors. Also, I would only cool the dissolved gelatin to ~70 F and then add. Cool it down too much before adding to beer, and you'll end up with jello.

 

[KevinM]

Here's a question based on that then. While I never thought that the detrimental effect of boiling was believed to be a chemical reaction, I had always perceived it to be a structual detriment. In that by either
a) Letting it become jello, it seals away part of the structure and thus becomes less effect than if the entire liquid spreads out. (Less surface area).
or that
b) The gelatin would somehow chunk up and become a more dense mass than a floating more liquidy mass and again cause less surface area which means either a slower reaction or less effect due to the unavailable reaction area.

I haven't bothered testing it, and I feel that putting unflavored, unsweetened jello to any use would be almost pointless, except for a low cal snack or some sort of decoration, usually around halloween.

I think people were also somehow worried that the structual change would have dispersed thoughout the beer yet could have been of a sufficient quantity to cause the entire volume to become a semi-solid liquid, but there just isn't enough gelatin when properly used.

Does this have any bearing on any effects?


And yes, people do put the gelatin in the primary, then draw the beer (but not the gelatin) into the bottling bucket and then bottle. (Or keg.)

 

[Biobrewer]

Here's a question based on that then. While I never thought that the detrimental effect of boiling was believed to be a chemical reaction, I had always perceived it to be a structual detriment. In that by either
a) Letting it become jello, it seals away part of the structure and thus becomes less effect than if the entire liquid spreads out. (Less surface area).
or that
b) The gelatin would somehow chunk up and become a more dense mass than a floating more liquidy mass and again cause less surface area which means either a slower reaction or less effect due to the unavailable reaction area.

I haven't bothered testing it, and I feel that putting unflavored, unsweetened jello to any use would be almost pointless, except for a low cal snack or some sort of decoration, usually around halloween.

I think people were also somehow worried that the structual change would have dispersed thoughout the beer yet could have been of a sufficient quantity to cause the entire volume to become a semi-solid liquid, but there just isn't enough gelatin when properly used.

Does this have any bearing on any effects?


And yes, people do put the gelatin in the primary, then draw the beer (but not the gelatin) into the bottling bucket and then bottle. (Or keg.)

I generally boil 1.5 g of gelatin in what turns out to be a final volume of 100 ml. That is 1.5 % (w/w) gelatin. This WILL gel if cooled to 36-38 F. However, it remains a liquid at 70 F, and when added to 5 gallons (~19,000 ml) of beer, the % w/w gelatin is reduced from 1.5% to 0.0079 % (w/w) gelatin. This 0.0079 % (w/w) gelatin solution in beer will not gel at 36-38F, but it's highly positive charge will pull negatively charged proteins/cells out of solution, precipitate, and fall to the bottom. The reason gelatin clarifies is because gelatin binds to protein bound to other gelatin molecules bound to cells bound to other gelatin molecules, and so on and so forth. Once the aggregates get large enough, they become insoluble, precipitate out of solution, and settle via gravity. Gelatin is a proven clarifier, and is really, really, really cheap, which is why people love it and use it frequently and on all levels from professional brewers to home brewers.

And yes, this can be done in primary, but you certainly would not want to do this if you plan on harvesting yeast from the primary.

And yes again, boiling likely does affect the structure of the gelatin (as I went into detail above), but since the gelatin is already hydrolyzed under heat and it's function is largely unrelated to structure, it shouldn't matter.

 

[aplus01]

I generally boil 1.5 g of gelatin in what turns out to be a final volume of 100 ml. That is 1.5 % (w/w) gelatin. This WILL gel if cooled to 36-38 F. However, it remains a liquid at 70 F, and when added to 5 gallons (~19,000 ml) of beer, the % w/w gelatin is reduced from 1.5% to 0.0079 % (w/w) gelatin. This 0.0079 % (w/w) gelatin solution in beer will not gel at 36-38F, but it's highly positive charge will pull negatively charged proteins/cells out of solution, precipitate, and fall to the bottom. The reason gelatin clarifies is because gelatin binds to protein bound to other gelatin molecules bound to cells bound to other gelatin molecules, and so on and so forth. Once the aggregates get large enough, they become insoluble, precipitate out of solution, and settle via gravity. Gelatin is a proven clarifier, and is really, really, really cheap, which is why people love it and use it frequently and on all levels from professional brewers to home brewers.

And yes, this can be done in primary, but you certainly would not want to do this if you plan on harvesting yeast from the primary.

And yes again, boiling likely does affect the structure of the gelatin (as I went into detail above), but since the gelatin is already hydrolyzed under heat and it's function is largely unrelated to structure, it shouldn't matter.

Great explaination of how gelatin works. Thanks for taking the time to spell it all out.

 

[guinnessface]

My recommendation is this: add it to secondary, let it sit for a few days, then rack and bottle. It won't hurt if you give it a stir initially. If you add it to primary before fermentation is complete, you run the risk of clearing out any remaining active yeast (which could lead to a lower alcohol content then you planned). On the other hand if you let the beer sit in primary for a few weeks, you could then add the gelatin and essentially eliminate the need for secondary......the clarification would take place in the primary vessel as a result of the gelatin. Clear as mud? I hope that helps

 

[C-Rider]

My recommendation is this: add it to secondary, let it sit for a few days, then rack and bottle. It won't hurt if you give it a stir initially. If you add it to primary before fermentation is complete, you run the risk of clearing out any remaining active yeast (which could lead to a lower alcohol content then you planned). On the other hand if you let the beer sit in primary for a few weeks, you could then add the gelatin and essentially eliminate the need for secondary......the clarification would take place in the primary vessel as a result of the gelatin. Clear as mud? I hope that helps

If it "clears" the primary will there be enough yeast to carbonate the bottles?

 

[guinnessface]

I can't answer that for sure, but I'm leaning toward yes. If you let a beer sit in secondary for months until it's clear, it'll still bottle condition. The way it works (I believe) is there's enough dormant yeast suspended to create that carbonation. Anyone please feel free to correct me on this.

 

[Calder]

If it "clears" the primary will there be enough yeast to carbonate the bottles?

Yes. Gelatin still leaves billions of yeast cells in suspension; no worries.

 

[cincybrewer]

Not sure where in the thread it suggested adding gelatin to chilled beer...but doing so will result in instantaneous coagulation of the gelatine. It needs to be mixed into room temperature beer, prior to chilling.

Think about it...liquid gelatin turns to..."jello" in the fridge.

hmm...just getting around to reading this thread in it's entirety. I've always added my gelatin to a cold keg and it seems to work pretty well. I just add the gelatin to a cup of water, let it sit for 10 minutes, heat it up while mixing until it's all mixed up. I don't even bother cooling it because I don't foresee adding 1 cup of hot water to 5 gallons of cold beer doing any damage. I could be wrong but so far it appears to be working.

 

[wcrooker]

hmm...just getting around to reading this thread in it's entirety. I've always added my gelatin to a cold keg and it seems to work pretty well. I just add the gelatin to a cup of water, let it sit for 10 minutes, heat it up while mixing until it's all mixed up. I don't even bother cooling it because I don't foresee adding 1 cup of hot water to 5 gallons of cold beer doing any damage. I could be wrong but so far it appears to be working.

I'm with you on this one. I just put the gelatin in the already cold keg of pumpkin ale that won't get clear. About two or three days later. Boom, clear beer.

 

[Dionysos911]

So I am about to either keg or tertiary a fruit beer. I don't really have the ability to cold crash until the keg gets hooked up to the tap. Would I be better putting the gelatin in tertiary for a week at room temp then kegging or adding it into the keg and letting it sit for a month+ at room temp then putting it in my kegerator?

 

[guinnessface]

I know it's contrary to many of the suggestions, but I've always cold crashed in the keg and added the finings a day later when it's cold. I get clear beer in a matter of 2-3 days. Works like a charm for me

 

[Reno_eNVy]

Even at room temperature, gelatin won't stay in suspension for a month (let alone more!)

3-7 days at room temp seems to do it for me. Day one and two don't show much progress, but then suddenly around day 3 or 4 there is a pile of crud (technical term ) at the bottom of my bucket.

 

[ResumeMan]

So what exactly does "hydrate and bloom" mean in this context? I've been following BM's and others' procedures so I guess I'm letting it "bloom" but I don't really know what that means...

So is something in particular supposed to happen to indicate that it is blooming? Or do you just wait a bit after adding to the warm water, and then go from there?

 

[stikks]

So what exactly does "hydrate and bloom" mean in this context? I've been following BM's and others' procedures so I guess I'm letting it "bloom" but I don't really know what that means...

So is something in particular supposed to happen to indicate that it is blooming? Or do you just wait a bit after adding to the warm water, and then go from there?

I use gelatin on occasion depending on what I`m looking for in the finished
product (which style of brew).I think what is meant by blooming is dissolve.
When you heat it up to about 180 you will see a clear film on top of the
water that you hydrated it in.That means it is dissolved.After I see that
I cool to room temp and add it to my secondary after racking off primary.
That is just my technique,others may differ.

Cheers

 

[Sippin37]

It is vital to mix with preheated (nearly but not quite boiling) water and let it completely dissolve.

Without this step, the gelatin is not soluble and has no chance of doing it's job properly. The gelatin you added was probably to cool beer and it just fell straight to the bottom of the keg.

If you're going to go straight to the keg with gelatin, prepare for a deeper yeast cake. I took my dip tubes out and gave them a sharper bend so they were about 1/2 inch off the bottom.

Biermuncher, did you do this so that the dip tube sucks the beer from above the yeast/gelatin cake at the bottom? or is this done so that it sucks all of the junk out of the keg first and then all that is left is good beer?

Thanks

 

[BierMuncher]

Biermuncher, did you do this so that the dip tube sucks the beer from above the yeast/gelatin cake at the bottom? or is this done so that it sucks all of the junk out of the keg first and then all that is left is good beer?

Thanks

I shorten my tubes (by bending or cutting if they're straight) so they rest about 1/2 - 3/4 inch above the bottom. It equates to less than a half pint, but assures that the tube is clear of that thin layer of yeast sediment that compacts very tightly due to the cold.

Because of the compact nature of the yeast cake, one or two initial draws of beer won't "suck it clean" as many people suggest.

 

[Sippin37]

Okay that makes sense, thanks for clarifying. I'm going to give it a go and I'll post the results back here in a few weeks.

 

[wcrooker]

Okay that makes sense, thanks for clarifying. I'm going to give it a go and I'll post the results back here in a few weeks.

Ha! Pun intended?

 

[Sippin37]

Nope! Haha

 

[johns]

I have some really cloudy beer and it has been advised that I use gelatin to clarify. This is what I have done.

I took the recommended amount of gelatin (cant remember the amount but its on the package) and poured about 17 oz of water onto it. Then I heated it until it dissolved, then I added it to the keg, stirred with my plastic aerator/stir stick that fits on the end of my drill. I did this after crashing the keg for about 18 hours or so at about 35 or 40 degrees (guessing). This was done on Monday and after pouring small amounts every day to see the clarity of the beer, I can say that its still cloudy.

So, my mistake is that I think that I should have let the gelatin sit out longer and let it cool a bit before pitching into the keg. I have not looked into the keg recently, but I will do so in a few days. Maybe I should have pitched the gelatin slurry onto the keg at room temperature?

Anyway, yes I have read this whole thread and my conclusion was as stated above. I should have let the hot gelatin cool a bit before pitching. If I open the keg and see a layer of Jello on top that I believe that was the mistake. I am just looking for reaffirmation, because this was my first kegging experience, and my second batch. My first batch was more clear then this batch. On this batch I used White labs Ale yeast, and my last batch was a honey nut brown from a brand name.

I know home brewers that brew with out and type of clarifying agents and their beer always comes out crystal clear. Could they be too ashamed to admit that they are using it without my knowledge or are they just kick ass brewers? I kinda think they just really know what they are doing.

As a side note I have a home made wort-chiller that is 3/8s by 50 feet long. I thought that it would be excellent for making super clear beer.......I guess I was mistaken and a bit disappointed.

 

[cincybrewer]

Sounds to me like you did it correctly. Two days is not enough time to see if it clears. Give it a few more days without pulling any samples and I'm sure it will be clearer. I think in this thread it says it works better if the beer is at room temperature but I've always done it in a cold keg and it works great. I also don't think it matters too much if you cool the gelatin. You'll be pouring it onto 5 gallons of cold beer. That will cause the gelatin to cool quickly and won't effect the temp of the beer.

As for getting clear beer, gelatin helps a lot and can cure a lot of problems. But there is a lot that goes into getting a clear beer. Many don't use gelatin and get clear beers. Using a wort chiller, irish moss, cold crashing, hot break (I think?), etc all contribute to clear beers. Oh, and patience. I usually just dump my trub into the fermenter with the hops and all but I let my beer ferment for a minimum of 3-4 weeks.

If you have only brewed a few batches then just have some patience. Your beer will get better and clearer with every batch...If not, create a thread on this forum and describe your process and some "experts" will help you out.

 

[OcularTrauma]

As for getting clear beer, gelatin helps a lot and can cure a lot of problems. But there is a lot that goes into getting a clear beer. Many don't use gelatin and get clear beers. Using a wort chiller, irish moss, cold crashing, hot break (I think?), etc all contribute to clear beers. Oh, and patience. I usually just dump my trub into the fermenter with the hops and all but I let my beer ferment for a minimum of 3-4 weeks.

I do this as well. I usually leave my beer in primary for at least one month before I keg or bottle and it almost always comes out crystal clear.

If you have only brewed a few batches then just have some patience. Your beer will get better and clearer with every batch...If not, create a thread on this forum and describe your process and some "experts" will help you out.

The only time I use gelatin is when I get impatient. Patience is a virtue... this is non more true than brewing beer! I get all cranked up about 10 day ferments and force carbonating, but I've never met a homebrew that didn't benefit from at least a month of aging.

Having said all that, I've been using gelatin in the primary since batch #6 and I always get good results! Thanks to everyone who has added their knowledge to this thread!

 

[kickrjason]

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