Gas and Temperature Control for Dummies

[RonRock]

Thanks Kevin, makes sense. I'll install pilots. I'd get tired of that clicking soon anyway.

Now to figure out a pilot that will fit inside the Hurricanes.

 

[kladue]

Here is a shot of the pilot install "Apparatus" made https://cdn.homebrewtalk.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=26293&cat=all&ppuser=3596, he tucked it in over the inlet. Looking at your burner sheilds you might have to cut a window in the side to mount the pilot or try to fit it inside the burner between the spokes. The Q345 pilots are 3/4" X 1 5/8" but that is the plate dimensions, they can fit in a bit tighter opening. Here is a link to the dimension information http://customer.honeywell.com/techlit/pdf/68-0000s/68-0094.pdf

 

[motopsychoz]

How long can the spark wire be? My control panel is farther than the wire that comes with the kit and was wondering if I could get a long coil wire to use instead.

 

[Sawdustguy]

Make sure it is high voltage cable. It is a few thousand volts. Check the manual so you can select cable of sufficient rating.

 

[lucasszy]

Dont mean to chime in and sound like an idiot here, but are we looking at almost $300 per burner to do things this way?

Im in the early - "thinking about building a brutus" stages.

Cheers

L

 

[RonRock]

What gage wire do I need for the control wiring? From the gas valve to the ignition module. The MV, PV/MV, PV wires.

The harness that came with my igniter is too short. I will check and see what gage the harness is, but it seems that it was 14g. I would not think 14 would be necessary. And I have a couple spools of 18 or 20.


Never mind. I stripped back a bit of the harness covering. The OEM wires are 18 gage. Just so happens that is what I have on hand.

 

[lincoln]

looking through the control valve is says that the max current is 2~3 amps. 22 or 18 is fine for that. I would go 18 awg just because it is a bit sturdy.

"Maximum Valve Load @ 24 Vac (Amps) 1A Pilot, 2A Main @ 24Vac"

 

[RonRock]

I test fired one of my burners today. Was able to make fire, but a couple questions.

I plan to interface with my BCS controller. The BCS has 6 outputs-

"Discrete Outputs (Outs) are rated at 5VDC up to 20mA each. The BCS-460 is designed to control relays, and not to drive high current loads." (BCS Wiki)

Any suggestions how to make this work?


The ignition module as I have wired currently (test phase) ignites pilot when powered up and burner lights. Seems to work properly. I have wired as in post #1 in this thread. With the exception (Since I'm not use'ng a PID) I have 1 24v wire going to 24v Gnd, other 24v wire going to TH-W. From what I have read with the instructions the TH-W is the thermostat (switched) wire. If I break that wire of course power is lost and valve is shut down. So, should I run 24v transformer wires to 24v Gnd / 24v? Splice off 24V for Thermostat power (BCS)?

 

[RonRock]

May be helpful, first is As Wired now, second As Proposed. I can see trouble with the 5v limit with the BCS.

 

[lincoln]

judging form the pic in the original post, yes. You may not need the 24v terminal hooked up as it is omitted in the pic.

as far as interfacing the BCS you need a relay with a 5 vdc coil and a contact rating a a few amps, wire the 24v on the contact side and the coil to the bcs. be sure to include a subbing diode if not internal to the bcs.

 

[kladue]

Drop the power to the "24V" as that was used for the vent damper not the spark system. For the BCS 460 connection why not use a 5-10 amp SSR and keep it relatively simple like you would for the pump and other AC loads.
Here is another ignition diagram, just change controller contacts for SSR http://picasaweb.google.com/kevin.ladue/Ignition#5420037998508461298. If the spark wire with the kit is to short a trip to the auto parts store for "wire core" ignition wire sold by the foot, a spark plug connector and boot for igniter end, female spade connector for spark module end, and you should be good to go. Call the auto parts store first as not all will have this type wire on hand, usually Napa autoparts stocks it.

 

[RonRock]

Thanks Kevin, I see the SSR use now. Had a Brain Fart on that. I looked at the diagram you linked. It looks basically the same as the one on post #1. If I switch the TH-W wire I loose all voltage to the ignition module when switch is open (no heat) that shuts everything down including pilot. Is this correct or should the pilot remain "lit" without power? In my test today it went out.

 

[RonRock]

Anybody?

After further study it appears that I was mistaken on the pilot light. Am I now correct that the pilot only lights on a call for heat, then lights burner? The pilot will remain lit during call for heat, and shut down when heat is shut down.

My initial thought was that the pilot would light when power is turned on to the system, and remain lit until power removed (unplugged.) But relight if flame is lost.

Which way is correct?

 

[Sawdustguy]

Anybody?

After further study it appears that I was mistaken on the pilot light. Am I now correct that the pilot only lights on a call for heat, then lights burner? The pilot will remain lit during call for heat, and shut down when heat is shut down.

My initial thought was that the pilot would light when power is turned on to the system, and remain lit until power removed (unplugged.) But relight if flame is lost.

Which way is correct?

That is correct. The pilot will light when heat is called for and stay on during the heating process. This is a much safer arrangement especially if you are brewing on a windy day. Also if the pilot is blown out by the wind it will re-attempt to relight the pilot and if for some reason your burner blows out it will be relit by the pilot.

 

[RonRock]

Thanks Guy, Took a while to get that through my thick head. So turns out this is easy to wire. Just follow the excellent instructions you have written for "Dummies." Sorry for this volley of ignorance, but now I'm good.

I do have one more issue with the setup. My burner is very weak. I'm sure that is because of the 3/8 line I have supplying the burners. So I'll try some 1/2 and see what that does. But that's another story.

Thanks,
Ron

 

[Sawdustguy]

Thanks Guy, Took a while to get that through my thick head. So turns out this is easy to wire. Just follow the excellent instructions you have written for "Dummies." Sorry for this volley of ignorance, but now I'm good.

I do have one more issue with the setup. My burner is very weak. I'm sure that is because of the 3/8 line I have supplying the burners. So I'll try some 1/2 and see what that does. But that's another story.

Thanks,
Ron

Great job Ron! I think with the larger gas line you will be all set.

 

[gruversm]

I have a Honeywell S86F for NG. Will this work OK?

 

[kladue]

The S86F should work with a dual valve setup, it was the predecesor product to the S8610U which has more bells and whistles for the high efficiency burner systems.

 

[Sawdustguy]

It appears as if it will work. Kladue will correct me if I am wrong.

 

[gruversm]

I currently use two Auber SYL-1512A2 for my Brutus setup. Can I use these PIDs with the Honeywell ignition system?

Does the SYL-1512A2 have the correct terminal connections?

 

[kladue]

The SYl-1512's will work for the ignition modules, the #4&5 terminals are used and the unit is programmed to use relay output not SSR. I believe there are others in this group using the same controller for the same job without problems.

 

[jlandin]

Thanks to all of you for the great information. I'm learning a lot reading through all of these great posts!

The Y8610U seems like a nice all-in-one (almost) solution, but that really is more than I want to spend per burner ($230+). I'm planning to automate 2 burners (HLT and MT) with integrated standing pilot valves, but I don't need all of the re-light sequence stuff. If one of my burners has a wind blowout, I simply want the valves to close (pilot and main).

Here's what I'm considering for each burner. Can one of you experts please help to confirm that I'm on the right track, and see if there is anything that I'm missing? (I'm not including the liquid-side: PID, temp probe, etc)

66.32 Honeywell VR8200A2132 Link
5.40 LP Orifice 390686-1 Link
5.65 Natural Gas To LP Conversion Kit Link
3.95 24" Thermocouple Link
15.95 Honeywell Q314A4586 Pilot Burner Link
------
97.27 Total (approx)


Edit: Sorry I meant to mention that I'm using Banjo BG14 burners converted to low pressure LP.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

Earlier in this thread, it is stated we can extend spark cables. However, while reading through my Honeywell S87 direct spark ignition module manual (I am using a pilot in conjunction) it states I am not to use more that 36" of spark cable. This is repeated several times throughout the manual.

How important is this? Am I being unsafe in any way by extending the cable? It would save a bunch of money and headache if I could just extend the cables to say eight feet.

 

[RonRock]

I actually bought a coil of replacement ignition wire from an HVAC supplier. It is the correct wire for the application. Not sure if it really matters, spark plug wire may work just as well. But if you want some wire LMK.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

No love on the longer spark cable? I don't see why it couldn't be longer. The only thing I could foresee is a change int he resistance farking things up... but why can't I just use a larger gauge cable then?

 

[kladue]

The concern for the longer cable was the losses from capacitive losse if the cable was in contact with metal frame. A 5' wire core spark plug cable from an auto parts store seems to work Ok but a couple feet are hanging in air and not in contact with metal.

 

[RonRock]

No love on the longer spark cable? I don't see why it couldn't be longer. The only thing I could foresee is a change int he resistance farking things up... but why can't I just use a larger gauge cable then?

Possibly misunderstood. I have 25 foot of the proper cable. Don't need it all.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

I planned to use ceramic standoffs as advised in the manual. So if I use standoffs to avoid metal contact I should be OK? Would adding an extra insulating layer help?

Here is the module manual:

http://www.absolutaire.com/docs/component_docs/indexed/185.pdf

I was planning to weld #6-32 bolts to the frame, then use ceramic standoffs (McMaster part #94335A126), wire tie mounts for 6-32 screws (McMaster part #7566K27), and nylon wire ties to mount the cable.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

Possibly misunderstood. I have 25 foot of the proper cable. Don't need it all.

That would be incredible RonRock! I just want to be sure I won't fry the cable or the modules or anything... you know how we do.

If those better than I say I should be fine, then I would love to have some of your excess cable. I will probably need about 14 feet. I have one 8' run, and one 6' run.

 

[kladue]

It should not be neccessary to go to the trouble of ceramic standoffs, just support the cable with the nylon loop supports so it does not lay tight against the metal supports. Some contact is okay, you will probably only have about 6" in contact with the metal structure when your done. The number of use cycles with a brew setup is nowhere near what a typical heating system exeriences in a typical year. The larger concern will be radiant heat and the exposed wires on the pilot assmbly, silicone sparkplug boots would be a good choice for this location, to judge heat from burner on wiring, touch wiring after 10 minutes and see how hot it is.