galvanized anything will kill you!

[smyrnaquince]

Wow. I've never seen so many dead people posting on this forum. Must be that zombie apocalypse that everyone is talking about.

Galvanized metal-- who knew?!

Personally, I read the title of this thread more as a warning that galvanized materials contacting your wort is not good for you.

Will galvanized materials contacting acidic, hot wort kill you? Probably not.

Will there be effects on your health, your brain cells, the functioning of your organs? I don't know. There is probably no way for any of us to tell if there would be damage and if so, how much.

I have a friend who sniffed glue in high school. He seems fine, but I have no idea how he would have turned out if he had not sniffed glue. If someone drank water from a galvanized bucket their whole life, there is no way to know how their health or body functions might be different if they had not. (And water is usually near neutral in pH, not acidic like beer.)

Unless someone wants to have a chemical analysis of a "galvanized surface" beer performed and see how much zinc has ended up in the final product, then compare it to what levels are considered safe (or even beneficial), we are all talking opinion and anecdotes.

Is it easy to avoid having your wort contact galvanized surfaces? Yes.

Why play around with unknowns if it is easy to avoid galvanized materials that contact wort?

 

[LiquidFlame]

My new beer label

 

[Stealthcruiser]

My new beer label

I'll take two, Please!

 

[mattd2]

So I was thinking about this a bit more and really wanted to check the validity of the claim.
So from the most reliable sorce on the internet (Wikipedia!) I found that 100mg/day for a week would not be expected to cause serious harm (cold lozanger scenario) or the USDA RDA is 15 mg/d
Since most of these fender washers appear to be electroplated (nice smooth finish) instead of Galv'd I would expect a plating thickness of between 5 and 25 um (ASTM B633)
Taking a M18 fender washer (which will fit over the 3/8" fittings in the example) you have ID 19mm / OD 56mm = 2180mm^2 surface area. With the desity of zinc at 7140 kg/m^3 and the above plating thicknesses we have between 78 and 389 mg of zinc plating in contact with the wort (excluding edges and back side which is sealed against the gaskets)
Assuming a typical 20 litre batch size.
Lets look at the worst case => 15mg/day and 25um plating thickness (389mg) and 15x 330ml beers a day drinking habit/problem (as mentioned above lets make the drinking problem the health issue - plus it makes the maths easy)
So each beer would need 1mg of zinc in it - so the total batch would need to have (20/.33 *1 =) 60mg of zinc in it.
if 60mg of zinc was removed from the washer everytime you brewed, the washer would have no remaining coating on it after.......... 7 brews! And that is being rediculus with our assumptions

Now lets consider a more reasonable drinking habit - 3x 330ml beers a day, following the above your washers would be bare steel after only 2 brews if you had above the USDA RDA of zinc in your resulting beer (and that doesn't account for any reduction in zinc that is motabilised by the yeast!)

I think we can say Zinc electroplated fender washers will not cause any adverse helath effect before your liver shuts down from alcohol abuse

 

[iijakii]

 

[troy2000]

While I agree that OP probably went a little overboard, I just want to say that I'm judging the Sacramento region NHC this year, and I honestly hope and pray that I'm not drinking beer made by someone who wouldn't be concerned with zinc paint flakes getting into their grist. That's an alarming attitude IMHO.

Maybe you're just trying to make a point though...but please exercise great care in your beer if you're sharing it with others. Brew on. ;-)

"Hope and pray?" Methinks you're over-dramatizing.

The paint (if that's what it is) is hardly thick enough to 'flake.'; It would have to wear off - and as I said, it hasn't done so yet.

Since I've shoved about forty pounds of grain through it and there are no bare or even scuffed spots in the coating, I seriously doubt I'm getting enough zinc in a 5 gal batch to measure, even with precision instruments. But if you're worried, give us a list of the competitions you'll be judging, and I'll skip entering them.

 

[MaxStout]

Zinc in my beer, you say?

There must be a trail of bodies everywhere....

 

[chickens4life]

Not doubting you, but then again I never heard this before. Do you have a reference? I'd like to read up on this. Thanks!

This is an article about using yeast to remove heavy metals from solution (the are using relatively short contact times and not growing yeast in the solution). they find that for some metals including zinc dead yeast works even better than live cells (under there conditions).
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2672.2009.04170.x/pdf

here is one study testing content of heavy metals at different stages of the brewing process (the metals they are looking at are the ones introduced from pesticides on the malt and hops, but the same would hold true for metals introduced in the mashtun). they are finding a majority of the metals actually coming out in the spent grain, then a majority of the remaining metals being absorbed by the yeast (for lead cadmium and selenium).
http://tchie.uni.opole.pl/freeECE/S_18_1/Cejka_18(S1).pdf

you can find more on the interwebs easily, but most of them wont be about beer specifically; they will instead be about using yeast for bioremediation.

 

[Flboy]

So cool, thank you for you that understood I was not crying 'the sky is falling'. Is zinc a nutrient? Yes, so is arsenic. I eat almonds and flax seed every day-contains trace cyanide-
Sorry for the link I used on the mash tun build, yes, it was the video inserted by another DIY that upset me. They used galvanized wire, lock nuts, and washers. Since the wort is not ph neutral, it will quickly corrode the galvanized stuff. FYI I rebuilt my mash tun based on the link I used!
Did I over react? Never. Will I do it again? Yep!

 

[mattd2]

So cool, thank you for you that understood I was not crying 'the sky is falling'. Is zinc a nutrient? Yes, so is arsenic. I eat almonds and flax seed every day-contains trace cyanide-
Sorry for the link I used on the mash tun build, yes, it was the video inserted by another DIY that upset me. They used galvanized wire, lock nuts, and washers. Since the wort is not ph neutral, it will quickly corrode the galvanized stuff. FYI I rebuilt my mash tun based on the link I used!
Did I over react? Never. Will I do it again? Yep!

Huh? I don't get it? Was this whole thread a joke?

You came in here screaming "anything galvanised will kill you!" and

Guys, I have seen too many builds using galvanized washers, wire, etc in contact with wort or other liquids. It is a slow poison! No middle ground. Zinc is very close to lead in what it does to you. If food touches it-bad.. This can't be taken lightly. I have been involved with many pets that were caged in zinc cages. It destroys the nervous system. Horribly sad!

but now claim you were not overreacting?

in reality, the use of zinc/glavanised wire is not going to cause any harm. It is not the best pratice, but it is not going to kill anyone either.
From this study it showed that the toxic dose of zinc is between 225mg-450mg which would mean to be poisoned by zinc after an average of 3 beers you would need 75-150mg of zinc in each beer, or 4.5-9 grams per 20 litre batch!
The study also stated that the likely cause of posioning is from slightly acidic food kept in galvinised containers over a long period of time. That is very different from a small amount of zinc fittings over 1-2 hours.

Or are you actually saying that people shouldn't use zinc coated/plated fittings as they will eventually corrode (the wire/spring in the video would be the worst case since you can't readily see it)

 

[Flboy]

Huh? I don't get it? Was this whole thread a joke?

You came in here screaming "anything galvanised will kill you!" and


but now claim you were not overreacting?

in reality, the use of zinc/glavanised wire is not going to cause any harm. It is not the best pratice, but it is not going to kill anyone either.

Not what I said, to go back to my original post, yes, galvanized anything in contact with your brew is bad, for several reasons. I have updated a few posts on builds using zinc and got no reaction. So.. Forced the issue to draw attention to something that has very debatable health issues. -not drinking beer, digesting zinc unnecessarily.-. Is zinc an important supplement? Yes.
My second post was a thank you for those of you that understood my point, and didn't hang me out to dry. If you thought I was saying I was not overreacting, then maybe we both need to grab a brew. You buy!

 

[Flboy]

To mattd2
My freakin browser didn't show your entire post,, sorry, I took you out of context! I apologize! Now back to that brew!

 

[oakbarn]

Zinc oxide otherwise known as Destin for diaper rash??? At least it is on the exterior!



Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[mattd2]

To mattd2
My freakin browser didn't show your entire post,, sorry, I took you out of context! I apologize! Now back to that brew!

Wasn't your browser... it was me editing my post!
I do agree with you that building food contact "stuff" out of galv and zinc plated parts is not the greatest and honestly a bit lazy (couldn't find / wait for the SS or brass parts!).
Back to brewing... or drinking!

 

[troy2000]

Personally, I read the title of this thread more as a warning that galvanized materials contacting your wort is not good for you.

Will galvanized materials contacting acidic, hot wort kill you? Probably not.

Will there be effects on your health, your brain cells, the functioning of your organs? I don't know. There is probably no way for any of us to tell if there would be damage and if so, how much.

I have a friend who sniffed glue in high school. He seems fine, but I have no idea how he would have turned out if he had not sniffed glue. If someone drank water from a galvanized bucket their whole life, there is no way to know how their health or body functions might be different if they had not. (And water is usually near neutral in pH, not acidic like beer.)

Unless someone wants to have a chemical analysis of a "galvanized surface" beer performed and see how much zinc has ended up in the final product, then compare it to what levels are considered safe (or even beneficial), we are all talking opinion and anecdotes.

Is it easy to avoid having your wort contact galvanized surfaces? Yes.

Why play around with unknowns if it is easy to avoid galvanized materials that contact wort?

Galvanized piping, utensils, water coolers and the like were in common use in this country for generations. It should be a relatively easy, if tedious, task to compare statistics from the past to statistics for the last generation or two, who were the first to grow up without being almost universally exposed to galvanizing. I'm betting such a study would show pretty much zip difference in symptoms related to either acute or chronic zinc poisoning....

I'm not recommending everyone run out and start using galvanized vessels, utensils and piping for their builds instead of copper, brass and stainless. But I honestly see nothing at all to get hysterical about, if there happens to be a bit of zinc somewhere...

I repeat: zinc is an essential mineral in our diet, and a naturally occurring substance in our food. In fact, 35 to 45% of adults over the age of 60 have a daily intake of zinc below the recommended daily amounts: http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Zinc-HealthProfessional/

This looks like just another in a long series of OMG everything you eat, drink or even touch is going to KILL you!!! claims.

If I listened to even a tenth of them, I'd spend my life curled up in a fetal ball in my bed (and the flame retardant in my pajamas would probably kill me anyway....

 

[Stealthcruiser]

Cadmium..........It's the new Zinc.........

 

[MaxStout]

Will I do it again? Yep!

And perhaps next time you'll back up your claims with some verifiable science, and leave out the hyperbolic "___ will kill you!" headline.

Just sayin'.

 

[mattd2]

...OMG everything you eat, drink or even touch is going to KILL you!!! ...

Only if you live in California

 

[troy2000]

Not what I said, to go back to my original post, yes, galvanized anything in contact with your brew is bad, for several reasons. I have updated a few posts on builds using zinc and got no reaction. So.. Forced the issue to draw attention to something that has very debatable health issues. -not drinking beer, digesting zinc unnecessarily.-. Is zinc an important supplement? Yes.
My second post was a thank you for those of you that understood my point, and didn't hang me out to dry. If you thought I was saying I was not overreacting, then maybe we both need to grab a brew. You buy!

Excuse me? What you said in the title of this thread was, "galvanized anything will kill you!"

If you want to back off that statement a little, that's fine (personally, I think you should back way off it). But don't pretend you never said it.

 

[smcinco]

Zinc? That's child's play. What about dihydrogen monoxide?!? The levels in beer are shocking! Ban dihydrogen monoxide!

http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html

 

[seabass07]

OP is an idiot. Clearly.

 

[jbaysurfer]

My Chinese knock-off of a Corona mill looks like it's been sprayed with zinc paint. None of it's rubbed off yet, and I won't be worried if it does.

While I agree that OP probably went a little overboard, I just want to say that I'm judging the Sacramento region NHC this year, and I honestly hope and pray that I'm not drinking beer made by someone who wouldn't be concerned with zinc paint flakes getting into their grist. That's an alarming attitude IMHO.

Maybe you're just trying to make a point though...but please exercise great care in your beer if you're sharing it with others. Brew on. ;-)

"Hope and pray?" Methinks you're over-dramatizing.

The paint (if that's what it is) is hardly thick enough to 'flake.'; It would have to wear off - and as I said, it hasn't done so yet.

Since I've shoved about forty pounds of grain through it and there are no bare or even scuffed spots in the coating, I seriously doubt I'm getting enough zinc in a 5 gal batch to measure, even with precision instruments. But if you're worried, give us a list of the competitions you'll be judging, and I'll skip entering them.

I said exactly which competition. Then I gave you the benefit of the doubt. I'm glad you haven't seen any flakes go into your grain, but I stand by my original post on the subject.

That's ^ about as undramatic as I can conjure fwiw.

 

[Epimetheus]

Please, before posting the typical alarmist, unsubstantiated anecdote, take a few minutes to search the interwebs and post some supporting links?

Galvanized anything - pah! Probably the most common way to die from galvanized pipe is to get hit with one. The post #14 by troy2000 nailed it. and it took me all of 5 minutes to search and independently find that and lots of other information. Beaucoup. Try it.

Goes along with alzheimers from aluminum kettles, lotsa lead leaching from brass fittings, dangers of lead-free solder that has tiny amounts of lead in it (yeah, it does have teensy amounts of lead) , and on and on.

By the time I drink enough beer for the metal to get me, I will have cirrhosis of the liver. Prost!

 

[Flboy]

OP is an idiot. Clearly.

Ouch!
Anyways. Just edited my original post:

(update) yes, overreaction and wrong on several points. My kid is a Vet tech and their shop specializes in bird care. Almost every week a bird comes in too sick to save. From toys and cages using galvanized parts. My daughter just lovingly pointed out to me, we are not birds!

FYI, there is a difference between idiot and stupidity. I deny claim to the idiot status.

 

[troy2000]

I said exactly which competition. Then I gave you the benefit of the doubt. I'm glad you haven't seen any flakes go into your grain, but I stand by my original post on the subject.

That's ^ about as undramatic as I can conjure fwiw.

I didn't realize your judging was a one-shot deal.

And I repeat: there's nothing on my mill thick enough to flake or peel.

I just spent a few minutes looking up 'corn grinder' on Ebay. The only Corona-style mills I saw without what seems to be the same finish as mine were a few rusty antiques. So perhaps you should avoid judging at all, because the odds are very good you'll be drinking beer from grain crushed in someone's Corona.....

 

[troy2000]

Ouch!
Anyways. Just edited my original post:

(update) yes, overreaction and wrong on several points. My kid is a Vet tech and their shop specializes in bird care. Almost every week a bird comes in too sick to save. From toys and cages using galvanized parts. My daughter just lovingly pointed out to me, we are not birds!

FYI, there is a difference between idiot and stupidity. I deny claim to the idiot status.

Agreed; we aren't birds. The mix we feed our parrots has small red peppers in it, and apparently birds are immune to capsicum - because I tasted one years ago, and it was hot.

add: I'm a little impressed that you revised your post after getting more information on the subject, instead of blindly sticking by your original statement.

 

[troy2000]

Please, before posting the typical alarmist, unsubstantiated anecdote, take a few minutes to search the interwebs and post some supporting links?

Galvanized anything - pah! Probably the most common way to die from galvanized pipe is to get hit with one. The post #14 by troy2000 nailed it. and it took me all of 5 minutes to search and independently find that and lots of other information. Beaucoup. Try it.

Goes along with alzheimers from aluminum kettles, lotsa lead leaching from brass fittings, dangers of lead-free solder that has tiny amounts of lead in it (yeah, it does have teensy amounts of lead) , and on and on.

By the time I drink enough beer for the metal to get me, I will have cirrhosis of the liver. Prost!

Speaking of alarmists: a few years ago I read a piece by a professional food writer, in which she told her readers, "never, ever, ever cook stuffing inside a turkey." Hello? Why does she think it's called stuffing?

Her starting point was sound: the stuffing soaks up juices from the raw turkey, and if it's undercooked it you can get salmonella poisoning. But then she got irrational and alarmist. The sensible conclusion would have been, "So make sure your stuffing is done through and through; maybe stick a thermometer in it." But maybe she thinks we're all to stupid to do that....

 

[acidrain]

Speaking of alarmists: a few years ago I read a piece by a professional food writer, in which she told her readers, "never, ever, ever cook stuffing inside a turkey." Hello? Why does she think it's called stuffing?

Her starting point was sound: the stuffing soaks up juices from the raw turkey, and if it's undercooked it you can get salmonella poisoning. But then she got irrational and alarmist. The sensible conclusion would have been, "So make sure your stuffing is done through and through; maybe stick a thermometer in it." But maybe she thinks we're all to stupid to do that....

The government should ban stuffing.

 

[smyrnaquince]

So I was thinking about this a bit more and really wanted to check the validity of the claim.

<analysis deleted in the interest of saving space>

I think we can say Zinc electroplated fender washers will not cause any adverse helath effect before your liver shuts down from alcohol abuse

Nice analysis!

 

[smyrnaquince]

This is an article about using yeast to remove heavy metals from solution (the are using relatively short contact times and not growing yeast in the solution). they find that for some metals including zinc dead yeast works even better than live cells (under there conditions).
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2672.2009.04170.x/pdf

here is one study testing content of heavy metals at different stages of the brewing process (the metals they are looking at are the ones introduced from pesticides on the malt and hops, but the same would hold true for metals introduced in the mashtun). they are finding a majority of the metals actually coming out in the spent grain, then a majority of the remaining metals being absorbed by the yeast (for lead cadmium and selenium).
http://tchie.uni.opole.pl/freeECE/S_18_1/Cejka_18(S1).pdf

you can find more on the interwebs easily, but most of them wont be about beer specifically; they will instead be about using yeast for bioremediation.

Thanks!