galvanized anything will kill you!

[Flboy]

Guys, I have seen too many builds using galvanized washers, wire, etc in contact with wort or other liquids. It is a slow poison! No middle ground. Zinc is very close to lead in what it does to you. If food touches it-bad.. This can't be taken lightly. I have been involved with many pets that were caged in zinc cages. It destroys the nervous system. Horribly sad!
(update) yes, overreaction and wrong on several points. My kid is a Vet tech and their shop specializes in bird care. Almost every week a bird comes in too sick to save. From toys and cages using galvanized parts. My daughter just lovingly just pointed out to me, we are not birds!

 

[SouthernYankee]

ipe:..............

 

[MaxStout]

I think it is a far cry from lead in its toxicity. Zinc compounds are routinely used therapeutically in amounts up to 150 mg/day, and zinc does not possess the bioaccumulative properties of lead.

However, I do agree one should always try to limit the introduction of any heavy metals into things we will ingest.

 

[mattd2]

I think it is a far cry from lead in its toxicity. Zinc compounds are routinely used therapeutically in amounts up to 150 mg/day, and zinc does not possess the bioaccumulative properties of lead.

However, I do agree one should always try to limit the introduction of any heavy metals into things we will ingest.

I also thought that a small amount of zinc was benificial to yeast health
I think I only remember one instance where a galve fitting was used (well questioned if it could be used) and most responed with to use either brass/SS

Got any links to the too many builds you have seen, I'd like to rubberneck on them

 

[Flboy]

I also thought that a small amount of zinc was benificial to yeast health
I think I only remember one instance where a galve fitting was used (well questioned if it could be used) and most responed with to use either brass/SS

Got any links to the too many builds you have seen, I'd like to rubberneck on them

Here is a resent one:

Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > DIY Projects > DIY Guide: MLT from Igloo 10-Gallon Commercial (yellow) Water Cooler

 

[Facinerous]

If you are worried about properties of metal, almost all brass contains lead in it. Just saying.

I'm not going to just dismiss the potential hazard of zinc in fittings, wire, and all kinds of other building materials. Zinc is awesome in that it is used as an anode for material oxidation. Hence zinc plated everything.

On the other hand. I find it fairly hard to believe that people are using zinc fittings, washers, or anything for their brewing hardware. Thanks for the heads up though. I hope there are people out there that will read your post and take heed to your warning.

ps.

Here is a resent one:

Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > DIY Projects > DIY Guide: MLT from Igloo 10-Gallon Commercial (yellow) Water Cooler

I wish that were a link so I could look at it without major search effort on my part.

[edit] ok. Quick google search revealed what you are showing. I don't see any zinc fittings in this build though. I always hate to see people mate brass to ss, but thats a different discussion.

diy-guide-mlt-igloo-10-gallon-commercial-yellow-water-cooler

 

[mattd2]

Here is a resent one:

Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > DIY Projects > DIY Guide: MLT from Igloo 10-Gallon Commercial (yellow) Water Cooler

The food contact washers are SS, the "non-stainless" washers are on the outside and wort should not be in contact with them in normal use.

 

[sudbuster]

Guys, I have seen too many builds using galvanized washers, wire, etc in contact with wort or other liquids. It is a slow poison! No middle ground. Zinc is very close to lead in what it does to you. If food touches it-bad.. This can't be taken lightly. I have been involved with many pets that were caged in zinc cages. It destroys the nervous system. Horribly sad!

Really? Well, ****, thanks for the update, dude. I might have died otherwise.

 

[vinylrooster]

Hey all,

I'm actually the original poster of that build. I would really like to point out that I did NOT use any galvanized metals....all stainless or brass.

I think FLboy is referring to the video that someone sub posted in the build. BUt that is NOT my video and I would NOT recommend putting galvanized metal in contact with something I'm going to consume.

Kinda feel like I'm being unfairly targeted here.....

-Rooster

 

[mattd2]

Hey all,

I'm actually the original poster of that build. I would really like to point out that I did NOT use any galvanized metals....all stainless or brass.

I think FLboy is referring to the video that someone sub posted in the build. BUt that is NOT my video and I would NOT recommend putting galvanized metal in contact with something I'm going to consume.

Kinda feel like I'm being unfairly targeted here.....

-Rooster

I thought that you did use non-stainless - but specifically on the outside where they would never touch the wort (so there is no problem with your original write up)
Welcome to the internet

 

[vinylrooster]

I thought that you did use non-stainless - but specifically on the outside where they would never touch the wort (so there is no problem with your original write up)
Welcome to the internet

But aren't those just acting as spacers to give me a better fit? Where will they contact liquid?

-Rooster

 

[ManiacalJ]

I would be very interested in some source material here. Galvanized pipe is very common for potable water systems. It is no longer commonly used, because it is expensive, difficult to work with, and requires the plumber to haul around threading equipment. Copper, and now pex are simply cheaper and easier, with equivalent or better performance in most applications. The risks with galvanized that I am aware of come in when it comes to extreme heat, such as forging, welding, etc., in which it gives off toxic gases.

 

[Facinerous]

Don't worry vinylrooster, I've got your back on this one. You have a good build there.

ManiacalJ. The last house I lived in was entirely plumbed with Galv pipe. It was horrible. I hadn't used that much CLR any other time in my life. I don't think the galv was the concern though. It was just zinc in any fittings.

 

[troy2000]

Guys, I have seen too many builds using galvanized washers, wire, etc in contact with wort or other liquids. It is a slow poison! No middle ground. Zinc is very close to lead in what it does to you. If food touches it-bad.. This can't be taken lightly. I have been involved with many pets that were caged in zinc cages. It destroys the nervous system. Horribly sad!

So why am I still alive? I grew up working on farms in the desert, and all the water coolers back then were galvanized. I'd hate to add up how many gallons of water I drank from them over the years. Not to mention all the houses I've lived in with galvanized water pipes....

I guess I'll have to add galvanizing to the increasingly long list of things in modern civilization that are killing us so fast the average lifespan is only two or three times what it used to be.

For most foods, contact with galvanized steel is perfectly safe. Only acidic foods should not come in contact with galvanized steel according the the U.S. Food & Drug Administration. The acid in some foods reacts with the zinc coating to form salts that are readily absorbed by the body and in excess could cause a very mild sickness.

So, where is galvanized steel used in food production operations? There are two primary and distinct areas, for the structural supports of a building, such as a bakery or slaughterhouse, and for trays, racks, conveyor, freezers, refrigerators, and counter-tops in direct contact with the food. Qualifying all of this discussion is the fact zinc is a necessary part of our RDA, approximately 15 mg should be a part of your daily intake.

http://www.galvanizeit.org/hot-dip-...zing/how-long-does-hdg-last/contact-with-food

Last time I looked, drug stores were still selling 50 mg zinc tablets to fight colds. Are you seriously trying to tell us we're going to get more than that in a bottle of beer, from a galvanized washer or wire in our build?

RDWHHB. We're never going to get out of here alive anyway....

 

[mattd2]

But aren't those just acting as spacers to give me a better fit? Where will they contact liquid?

-Rooster

I think you misread my post - I was agreeing with what you just said, no where in your build is there galv/wort contact.
The "welcome to the internet" comment was just referring to the fact that you are being dragged into this because someone else posted on your thread with something different to what you did and now you are having to defend yourself because of it

 

[vinylrooster]

I think you misread my post - I was agreeing with what you just said, no where in your build is there galv/wort contact.
The "welcome to the internet" comment was just referring to the fact that you are being dragged into this because someone else posted on your thread with something different to what you did and now you are having to defend yourself because of it

I totally misread your post. Thanks for the backup

-Rooster

 

[ChuckO]

I would be very interested in some source material here. Galvanized pipe is very common for potable water systems. It is no longer commonly used, because it is expensive, difficult to work with, and requires the plumber to haul around threading equipment. Copper, and now pex are simply cheaper and easier, with equivalent or better performance in most applications. The risks with galvanized that I am aware of come in when it comes to extreme heat, such as forging, welding, etc., in which it gives off toxic gases.

Galvanized pipe can be used because the zinc is only on the outside. Very little migrates to the inner surfaces during the galvanizing process.

 

[user 163849]

i have drank many gallons water from a galvanized dipper dipped into unfiltered well water in a galvanized well bucket. The water can that we used in the hay fields were galvanized steel and filled at least twice a day. Galvanized water pipes supplied most the water that I consumed for the first 18 years of my life and beyond. I have even welded galvanized steel and and survived the fumes just fine. I am now 64 years old and zinc poisoning has yet to show up.

My guess is that my doctor would tell you that the most dangerous ingredient in a batch of beer brewed in a galvanized kettle would be the alcohol. That said, I do not use any galvanized brewing equipment and personally I like alcohol more than I like my doctor so beer is still my friend.

 

[troy2000]

Galvanized pipe can be used because the zinc is only on the outside. Very little migrates to the inner surfaces during the galvanizing process.

A lot of old galvanized pipe, if not all of it, was galvanized inside and out; I've certainly replaced enough of it over the years to know.

add: I just looked up a spec sheet for Schedule 40 galvanized pipe; it specifies the thickness of galvanizing inside and out.

Coating Requirements:

The minimum zinc coating weight of schedule 40 pipe is 1.8 oz/ft (550 g/m), determined from the average results of two specimens taken for test, and not less than 1.6 oz/ft (490 g/m) for either of these specimens. The weight of zinc coating is calculated by dividing the total weight of zinc, inside plus outside, by the total area, inside plus outside, of the area coated.

http://www.merchantsmetals.com/literature/Spec_Schedule40_pipe_galvanized.pdf

 

[MikeInMKE]

This is why my Corona mill sits unused. The thing looks like it's covered in zinc, and there is no way to keep the milling plate from rubbing against the body of the mill, so metal filings would end up in my grist.

 

[troy2000]

This is why my Corona mill sits unused. The thing looks like it's covered in zinc, and there is no way to keep the milling plate from rubbing against the body of the mill, so metal filings would end up in my grist.

You might as well give it to someone who'll use it, then. Or scrap it for the iron; no sense letting it set around gathering dust.

My Chinese knock-off of a Corona mill looks like it's been sprayed with zinc paint. None of it's rubbed off yet, and I won't be worried if it does.

 

[smyrnaquince]

If you are worried about properties of metal, almost all brass contains lead in it. Just saying.

Brass for new potable water installations had to be lead-free by January 4, 2014.

Palmer's book (pre- lead-free law) tells you how to pickle brass to remove lead from the wetted surfaces.

 

[mbobhat]

You might as well give it to someone who'll use it, then. Or scrap it for the iron; no sense letting it set around gathering dust.

My Chinese knock-off of a Corona mill looks like it's been sprayed with zinc paint. None of it's rubbed off yet, and I won't be worried if it does.

Exactly. Totally different though having slightly moist grain go through a corona mill than having acidic heated wort touching it for an hour. Use your heads people!

 

[jbaysurfer]

You might as well give it to someone who'll use it, then. Or scrap it for the iron; no sense letting it set around gathering dust.

My Chinese knock-off of a Corona mill looks like it's been sprayed with zinc paint. None of it's rubbed off yet, and I won't be worried if it does.

While I agree that OP probably went a little overboard, I just want to say that I'm judging the Sacramento region NHC this year, and I honestly hope and pray that I'm not drinking beer made by someone who wouldn't be concerned with zinc paint flakes getting into their grist. That's an alarming attitude IMHO.

Maybe you're just trying to make a point though...but please exercise great care in your beer if you're sharing it with others. Brew on. ;-)

 

[chickens4life]

two things that seems to be left out of these discussions are dose and yeast.

Dose: the amount of zinc that will dissolve in to a batch of beer and subsequently end up in each bottle is not likely to be toxic (think about how much zinc there is on a galvanized washer, and how much there is is there left after a batch is made on the equipment?). The stuff is not toxic at low levels, it is actually a required nutrient.

Yeast: and this is the big one, yeast are extremely efficient at removing heavy metals from their environment. so most or all of the lead, copper and zinc introduced during the brewing process will end up in the yeast cake not the finished beer.

that being said, I don't use any galvanized metal in my brewery, it is not as easy to clean as things like stainless.

Chickens

 

[ImNoExpert]

Wow. I've never seen so many dead people posting on this forum. Must be that zombie apocalypse that everyone is talking about.

Galvanized metal-- who knew?!

 

[Stealthcruiser]

This is why my Corona mill sits unused. The thing looks like it's covered in zinc, and there is no way to keep the milling plate from rubbing against the body of the mill, so metal filings would end up in my grist.

Shall I P.M. you my shipping address?.............

 

[mattd2]

Galvanized pipe can be used because the zinc is only on the outside. Very little migrates to the inner surfaces during the galvanizing process.

Have you seen the galvanising process? Because at the pipe mill I worked at they definatly were galvanising the inside of the pipe since there is no way to stop it from entering the open ends when it is dipped.

 

[seabass07]

Yeast like zinc. Many breweries add zinc to their wort for yeast health. So anyone who's concerned about galvanized metals for health reasons should stop worrying, at least if contact is before fermentation. The real reason you shouldn't use galvanized stuff is that it will eventually corrode and need to be replaced. Anyone freaking out about trace amounts of zinc pre-fermentation should read up some more on yeast.

 

[smyrnaquince]

Yeast: and this is the big one, yeast are extremely efficient at removing heavy metals from their environment. so most or all of the lead, copper and zinc introduced during the brewing process will end up in the yeast cake not the finished beer.

Not doubting you, but then again I never heard this before. Do you have a reference? I'd like to read up on this. Thanks!

 

[smyrnaquince]

Wow. I've never seen so many dead people posting on this forum. Must be that zombie apocalypse that everyone is talking about.

Galvanized metal-- who knew?!

Personally, I read the title of this thread more as a warning that galvanized materials contacting your wort is not good for you.

Will galvanized materials contacting acidic, hot wort kill you? Probably not.

Will there be effects on your health, your brain cells, the functioning of your organs? I don't know. There is probably no way for any of us to tell if there would be damage and if so, how much.

I have a friend who sniffed glue in high school. He seems fine, but I have no idea how he would have turned out if he had not sniffed glue. If someone drank water from a galvanized bucket their whole life, there is no way to know how their health or body functions might be different if they had not. (And water is usually near neutral in pH, not acidic like beer.)

Unless someone wants to have a chemical analysis of a "galvanized surface" beer performed and see how much zinc has ended up in the final product, then compare it to what levels are considered safe (or even beneficial), we are all talking opinion and anecdotes.

Is it easy to avoid having your wort contact galvanized surfaces? Yes.

Why play around with unknowns if it is easy to avoid galvanized materials that contact wort?

 

[LiquidFlame]

My new beer label

 

[Stealthcruiser]

My new beer label

I'll take two, Please!

 

[mattd2]

So I was thinking about this a bit more and really wanted to check the validity of the claim.
So from the most reliable sorce on the internet (Wikipedia!) I found that 100mg/day for a week would not be expected to cause serious harm (cold lozanger scenario) or the USDA RDA is 15 mg/d
Since most of these fender washers appear to be electroplated (nice smooth finish) instead of Galv'd I would expect a plating thickness of between 5 and 25 um (ASTM B633)
Taking a M18 fender washer (which will fit over the 3/8" fittings in the example) you have ID 19mm / OD 56mm = 2180mm^2 surface area. With the desity of zinc at 7140 kg/m^3 and the above plating thicknesses we have between 78 and 389 mg of zinc plating in contact with the wort (excluding edges and back side which is sealed against the gaskets)
Assuming a typical 20 litre batch size.
Lets look at the worst case => 15mg/day and 25um plating thickness (389mg) and 15x 330ml beers a day drinking habit/problem (as mentioned above lets make the drinking problem the health issue - plus it makes the maths easy)
So each beer would need 1mg of zinc in it - so the total batch would need to have (20/.33 *1 =) 60mg of zinc in it.
if 60mg of zinc was removed from the washer everytime you brewed, the washer would have no remaining coating on it after.......... 7 brews! And that is being rediculus with our assumptions

Now lets consider a more reasonable drinking habit - 3x 330ml beers a day, following the above your washers would be bare steel after only 2 brews if you had above the USDA RDA of zinc in your resulting beer (and that doesn't account for any reduction in zinc that is motabilised by the yeast!)

I think we can say Zinc electroplated fender washers will not cause any adverse helath effect before your liver shuts down from alcohol abuse

 

[iijakii]

 

[troy2000]

While I agree that OP probably went a little overboard, I just want to say that I'm judging the Sacramento region NHC this year, and I honestly hope and pray that I'm not drinking beer made by someone who wouldn't be concerned with zinc paint flakes getting into their grist. That's an alarming attitude IMHO.

Maybe you're just trying to make a point though...but please exercise great care in your beer if you're sharing it with others. Brew on. ;-)

"Hope and pray?" Methinks you're over-dramatizing.

The paint (if that's what it is) is hardly thick enough to 'flake.'; It would have to wear off - and as I said, it hasn't done so yet.

Since I've shoved about forty pounds of grain through it and there are no bare or even scuffed spots in the coating, I seriously doubt I'm getting enough zinc in a 5 gal batch to measure, even with precision instruments. But if you're worried, give us a list of the competitions you'll be judging, and I'll skip entering them.

 

[MaxStout]

Zinc in my beer, you say?

There must be a trail of bodies everywhere....

 

[chickens4life]

Not doubting you, but then again I never heard this before. Do you have a reference? I'd like to read up on this. Thanks!

This is an article about using yeast to remove heavy metals from solution (the are using relatively short contact times and not growing yeast in the solution). they find that for some metals including zinc dead yeast works even better than live cells (under there conditions).
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2672.2009.04170.x/pdf

here is one study testing content of heavy metals at different stages of the brewing process (the metals they are looking at are the ones introduced from pesticides on the malt and hops, but the same would hold true for metals introduced in the mashtun). they are finding a majority of the metals actually coming out in the spent grain, then a majority of the remaining metals being absorbed by the yeast (for lead cadmium and selenium).
http://tchie.uni.opole.pl/freeECE/S_18_1/Cejka_18(S1).pdf

you can find more on the interwebs easily, but most of them wont be about beer specifically; they will instead be about using yeast for bioremediation.

 

[Flboy]

So cool, thank you for you that understood I was not crying 'the sky is falling'. Is zinc a nutrient? Yes, so is arsenic. I eat almonds and flax seed every day-contains trace cyanide-
Sorry for the link I used on the mash tun build, yes, it was the video inserted by another DIY that upset me. They used galvanized wire, lock nuts, and washers. Since the wort is not ph neutral, it will quickly corrode the galvanized stuff. FYI I rebuilt my mash tun based on the link I used!
Did I over react? Never. Will I do it again? Yep!

 

[mattd2]

So cool, thank you for you that understood I was not crying 'the sky is falling'. Is zinc a nutrient? Yes, so is arsenic. I eat almonds and flax seed every day-contains trace cyanide-
Sorry for the link I used on the mash tun build, yes, it was the video inserted by another DIY that upset me. They used galvanized wire, lock nuts, and washers. Since the wort is not ph neutral, it will quickly corrode the galvanized stuff. FYI I rebuilt my mash tun based on the link I used!
Did I over react? Never. Will I do it again? Yep!

Huh? I don't get it? Was this whole thread a joke?

You came in here screaming "anything galvanised will kill you!" and

Guys, I have seen too many builds using galvanized washers, wire, etc in contact with wort or other liquids. It is a slow poison! No middle ground. Zinc is very close to lead in what it does to you. If food touches it-bad.. This can't be taken lightly. I have been involved with many pets that were caged in zinc cages. It destroys the nervous system. Horribly sad!

but now claim you were not overreacting?

in reality, the use of zinc/glavanised wire is not going to cause any harm. It is not the best pratice, but it is not going to kill anyone either.
From this study it showed that the toxic dose of zinc is between 225mg-450mg which would mean to be poisoned by zinc after an average of 3 beers you would need 75-150mg of zinc in each beer, or 4.5-9 grams per 20 litre batch!
The study also stated that the likely cause of posioning is from slightly acidic food kept in galvinised containers over a long period of time. That is very different from a small amount of zinc fittings over 1-2 hours.

Or are you actually saying that people shouldn't use zinc coated/plated fittings as they will eventually corrode (the wire/spring in the video would be the worst case since you can't readily see it)