Fullers recipes for ESB/Pride/Chiswick, Imperials, NEIPA - from the horse's mouth

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Now the yeast thing is getting interesting. I cultured the yeast on plates from a bottle of Past Masters 1981 version and the liquid cultures look a bit different than those from a bottle of their export IPA. The IPA yeast always producesa white, quite even layer of foam but 1981 has more cauliflowers with more brown notes using similar starter wort. Also the estery, fruity smell appears more(=highly) intense. Same thing starting from two individual colonies but the 1981 is just one individual bottle so it might have mutated, I may have messed up with something or it could even be another strain.. The flocculation seems different, too. Both drop quickly, but 1981 remained fluffy longer whereas Ipa bottling yeast forms the dense sediment quicker. Must see how it works in a brew tomorrow.
@jturman35 Looks nice, it is probably a bit darker than mine although it could be because of the lighting. What does your grain bill look like? I haven't really conditioned it long. I think it should be fine in a couple of weeks when everything goes as expected. Next time I will make a larger batch and cut down the copper hops a bit. I have some new equipment, too. Will post how it turns out and how exactly I am doing it now.
Pinging ESBrewer to see if you have refined your ESB recipe since your post of a couple of years ago. Looking to brew this in the coming weeks. I was very interested in your previous recipe, and keen to see if/how it has evolved since then. Thx!
 
Sorry to bring that old thread up :) I have some questions conerning the ESB/Pride recipe. I see the datasheet but cant really "read" it completly. so maybe you can help me. What does it say which crystal was used ? i only read Crystal LiXXt whatever it means... Next thing is the Hops. Are the red hops added in whirlpool and target is for bittering ? and what do the 12-6 and so on means ? 12 kg in the Mash Tun 1 and 6 on Mash Tun 2?. Also are both Tuns just 2 different beers right? Last thing is Mash temp. I read it they mash in at 71 C but mash temp is arround 67-68? Thats all so far. Thank you for your help :)
 

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Sorry to bring that old thread up :) I have some questions conerning the ESB/Pride recipe. I see the datasheet but cant really "read" it completly. so maybe you can help me. What does it say which crystal was used ? i only read Crystal LiXXt whatever it means... Next thing is the Hops. Are the red hops added in whirlpool and target is for bittering ? and what do the 12-6 and so on means ? 12 kg in the Mash Tun 1 and 6 on Mash Tun 2?. Also are both Tuns just 2 different beers right? Last thing is Mash temp. I read it they mash in at 71 C but mash temp is arround 67-68? Thats all so far. Thank you for your help :)
Have a look at post #18 in this thread which gives you a fairly good interpretation of the recipe I think.
 
Especially thanks for posting the Collets Green Farm. Fascinating. When it's legal again, I do want to visit England for a beer tour. This or something similar should be on the docket.
 
What does it say which crystal was used ? i only read Crystal LiXXt whatever it means...

Crystal Light

Are the red hops added in whirlpool and target is for bittering ? and what do the 12-6 and so on means ? 12 kg in the Mash Tun 1 and 6 on Mash Tun 2?

I read it as eg12.6kg total, but can't be sure - you can probably work it out by working out what volume you need to put 18.7kg of 11.4% Target into to make the IBUs come out right.

I read it as the "blue" Target is for bittering, the red blend is for aroma late in the boil, then there's another 20kg of Target at declaration (yeast pitch, historically the time at which the gravity was "declared" to the taxman) for Chiswick and ESB.

Also are both Tuns just 2 different beers right?

No, this is a double batch of their partigyle so you can think of it as the first runnings from the two tuns get combined, the second runnings from the two tuns get combined, then they make three beers by blending different amounts of first and (the weaker) second runnings, ESB has more first runnings, Chiswick has more of the second runnings.

Last thing is Mash temp. I read it they mash in at 71 C but mash temp is arround 67-68?

I assume that the water is at 71C when they add the grain, which reduces the temperature to the actual mash temperature.

There's more detail on their process in the various interviews at You searched for fuller | The Brewing Network
From memory they're mashing at just under 65C, and add the aroma additions 5 minutes or so before flameout.
 
Especially thanks for posting the Collets Green Farm. Fascinating. When it's legal again, I do want to visit England for a beer tour. This or something similar should be on the docket.

There's oast houses dotted all over the former hop growing areas, although they've almost all been converted into sought-after houses, I've got a friend who lives in one. There are even furniture makers who specialise in furniture that's designed for the round rooms!

The old Whitbread hop farm in Kent is now a visitor attraction if you want to see (lots!) of oasts, although they've been struggling with Covid :
thehopfarm.co.uk
 
I read it as the "blue" Target is for bittering, the red blend is for aroma late in the boil, then there's another 20kg of Target at declaration (yeast pitch, historically the time at which the gravity was "declared" to the taxman) for Chiswick and ESB.
Things written in red ink in brewing records are something which has changed. That is, isn't the same as the previous batch.
 
Hard to predict. I have done some experimenting with the various crystals and caramels - munching the grains, making teas, having them in my beers. I feel I have a handle on what they are like but trying to mix and match some to be similar to one other might not be very easy.

If you can get the real deal that's obviously best. If not then I think a mixture would at least be tasty if not similar enough to be a substitute.
 
Hi everybody,

I have read lots in this forum and already created decent clones of the ESB in single-gyle mashing before. Now I am planning to try the complete thing, the whole parti-gyle to get all three beers. The photo of Fuller's brewing notes gives lots of details which I'd like to stick to, if I can.

Now where I'm stuck is my attempt to go with the average gravities of the three beers (10.7°P or 1.043) and check if I can get somewhere near the average IBUs with their hop data. We get 25kg of Target (11.4%aa), 18kg Goldings (unknown aa, maybe 5%?), and 39kg each of Northdown and Challenger (maybe 7% and 6%, respectively?). We get 104.000l of beer with an average of 31.75 IBU (ESB: 35, LP: 33, CB: 26). The timing of the additions is given in the Brewing Network podcast with John Keeling.

My problem now, as you can see from the calculations I did on the German IBU calculator, is I get nowhere near the expected IBUs, even with 30 mins post-isomerisation time. Any thoughts from the experts?
1667907979422.png
 
We get 104.000l of beer with an average of 31.75 IBU (ESB: 35, LP: 33, CB: 26). The timing of the additions is given in the Brewing Network podcast with John Keeling.

My problem now, as you can see from the calculations I did on the German IBU calculator, is I get nowhere near the expected IBUs, even with 30 mins post-isomerisation time.
Hop utilisation is way higher on commercial systems, up to 50% more than at homebrew scale - which is what you appear to be seeing here.
 
Hi @Northern_Brewer
I only know that the formulae are time and protein-content depending. Would you be so kind and point me to some literature that explains this to me in-depth? I never expected different equipment to isomerise different amounts of alpha acid. Quite surprised by that.
 
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I never expected different equipment to isomerise different amounts of alpha acid. Quite surprised by that.
It's a well known "problem" that will be discussed in any serious brewing textbook. Unfortunately it's one of those areas where science meets the craft of brewing, there's not really a way for a book to tell you how hop utilisation will vary, you just have to brew with a particular setup and see what beer comes out of it and how it compares with the same recipe made in different equipment.
 
It's a well known "problem" that will be discussed in any serious brewing textbook.
Thanks. I once cloned the Meantime ales as described in the Brewing Network podcasts and they give their hop additions in g/hectoliters. While I didn't taste the originals, it was still easy to reach the appropriate IBU levels using a standard IBU calculator. Thence my confusion.
 
Thanks. I once cloned the Meantime ales as described in the Brewing Network podcasts and they give their hop additions in g/hectoliters. While I didn't taste the originals, it was still easy to reach the appropriate IBU levels using a standard IBU calculator. Thence my confusion.
Well - it could well be that Meantime adjusted their recipes for homebrew efficiencies, whereas the Fuller's numbers in this thread are "raw" and not adjusted in any way. Also you have to remember the context - from what I can see Meantime were on the Brewing Network back in 2011, when they were producing maybe 10% of what Fuller's were, so any size effects would have been far less in the Meantime brewery.
 
I just tasted my latest batch of ESB. I think it is the best so far except the fact that it is too bitter since I adjusted the hops a bit and had to change to pellet hops. But 7,5% Simpon's crystal light (the authentic malt) and Fuller's yeast extracted from a bottle of exported IPA(Bengal Lancer) seemed to work very well when fermented at 18..22 deg C. I am waiting for some fresh hops (& isinglass) to arrive from UK now and will be brewing again next week. I think it will be great this time. Lighter crystal probably gives a little bit more sweetness and together with the correct yeast it gives the right kind of sweet orange marmalade. I have also simplified the temperature gradients etc.and dry hopped in primary @21-22 deg C then cold crashed & fine as briefly as possible.
Hi ESBrewer,
sorry to pick up on and old thread but Fuller's beers are some of my favourite and I come back to this thread a fair bit. Did you end up upping the amount of chocolate malt in your ESB clone in the end to account for the lower lovibond crystal? It is interesting that Fuller's use less than 0.2% chocolate malt and yet they get that lovely dark copper/ruby ESB from it. I had wondered if that was something to do with their partigyle process. You seem to have nailed the colour of your clone on the previous post and I am guessing it is around 25 EBC/12.7 SRM?
Thanks
 
If you just go for the 7% of Crystal 150 from Crisp, you should be fine. The 0.2% are really just a correction that is most likely different in each brew. For that you would need to know the exact colour of your malt batch.

What is important is to use a crystal malt of the right colour. The British use the EBC system of the Institute of Brewing, which is different from the rest of Europe. So Crystal 150 has 170 EBC after the continental European standard. Things get even more complicated when you substitute with an American malt, since Briess writes e.g. 60L, but actually gives 60 SRM, which is slightly higher.
 
I've always figured the color of Fuller's ESB to be about 29 EBC +/- 1 EBC. There's nothing wrong with targeting 25 ESB though.
 
Still can't get past the title of this thread and the notion of looking towards Old England for brewing tips on New England IPA....

Cheers! (Cheeky bastids Over There! :D)
 
Can someone post the water additions ESBrewer gave for site: https://www.hsy.fi/fi/asiantuntijalle/vesihuolto/vedenlaatu/Sivut/default.aspx
Which is now defunct/out/gone PLS?

Nevermind, I waybacked and got it. After translation, extrapolation, and computating, It's just a water report for a medium hardness water from Helsinki, Finland. WEIRD. I thot all Burton hard water was the norm for Fuller's ESB?
I know this is just a clone attempt, but @ESBrewer said it is undeniably close. Perhaps Fuller's starts with RO water and doctor's it?
 
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Perhaps Fuller's starts with RO water and doctor's it?
Fuller's use their tap water, as they state during the tours. For their parti-gyle you can see in the picture of the brewlog they use 1.33g of gypsum per kg malt, which is 1.33g per 2.5l of mash water. You can type that into your water calculator. I entered the tap water for Chiswick here, though it is out of date now https://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/?id=Q0XPB8R

Up to date water analysis is here https://www.thameswater.co.uk/help/water-quality/check-your-water-quality#/results/W42QB
 
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Ron's been rummaging in the Young's archives, their 2006 partigyle is pretty similar to Fuller's here. Presumably he'll publish Ramrod/St George's as the third part of the partigyle shortly.
The base malt is a mix of Otter from Crisp and Simpson.

It's worth noting that Young's are using a touch less crystal than Fuller's at around 6% of 20L (=26SRM, 52EBC) crystal - and these are beers from the southeast, which are generally considered to use more crystal than is typical for England. Stop using 10+% crystal in bitters!!!!

Also worth noting a colour of under 5SRM (=10EBC), and attenuation up at 79-82%. Oh yes, all bitter should be sickly-sweet because the British are all using Windsor-type yeasts that don't attenuate for crap. Yeah right.

The IBU feel lower than I remember when drinking them, they don't drink like they have BU/GU of sub-50, I wonder if this is a case of not allowing for the lower hop efficiency of homebrew kit, I might bump them up a bit?

WLP030 Klassic and Wyeast 1768-PC allegedly come from Young's, I imagine Brewlab could do you something closer though.

https://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2024/03/lets-brew-wednesday-2006-youngs-ordinary.html
https://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2024/03/lets-brew-2006-youngs-special.html
2006 Youngs Special2006 Youngs Ordinary
pale malt9.75 lb
93.6%​
pale malt8.00 lb
94.1%​
crystal malt 20 L0.67 lb
6.4%​
crystal malt 20 L0.50 lb
5.9%​
Fuggles 75 min1.00 ozFuggles 75 min0.75 oz
Goldings 30 min0.50 ozGoldings 30 min0.50 oz
OG
1045​
OG
1036​
FG
1009.5​
FG
1006.5​
ABV
4.7%​
ABV
3.9%​
Apparent attenuation
78.9%​
Apparent attenuation
81.9%​
IBU
20​
IBU
17.5​
SRM
5​
SRM
4.5​
Mash at152° FMash at152° F
Sparge at165° FSparge at165° F
Boil time75 minutesBoil time75 minutes
pitching temp64° Fpitching temp65° F
 
@Northern_Brewer Thanks for the info! I missed checking Ron's blog throughout March and am still catching up.

I told him that John Hatch at Sambrook's Brewery has all the Young's brewlogs with him. Glad he followed my advice.
John told me that the typical fermentation profile was to pitch at 16°C and ferment at 20°C. Wyeast 1768 behaves similar to the Fuller's yeast in that it fusels very quickly above 20°C. So a good fermentation control is vital.
 
After doing some extensive research on this yeast, I found out that this yeast was one used by Fullers many decades ago.

Fullers fermented their wort with dual strains. But in the 1970s, the head brewer (Reg Drury?), found a more consistent product by employing a single yeast strain.
 
The yeast mentioned above is Wyeast 1768-PC.

Also, Youngs used invert sugar blends in many of their fine ales in the late 1990s. I really miss their fabulous 6.4% bottle conditioned Youngs Special London Ale from the 1990s.
 
@hopsnmalt Hi, I heard the rumour that it is a second Fuller's strain before, but could not find any reliable source for that. Did you find any? Most solid references point to the origin of Young's. I made a clone of the current Young's Special and found that it hit home quite well.

In the 90s Young's used the proprietary sugar "Young's Special Mixture", which is nowadays only used in the Winter Warmer. I gave the specifications of that sugar here.
 
But in the 1970s, the head brewer (Reg Drury?), found a more consistent product by employing a single yeast strain.
"More consistent product"? Sounds like you've been listening to too many PRs. They went down to one strain when they moved to conicals in the late 70s, but it has now evolved so that two strains can be distinguished genetically (John Keeling, pers comm).

It's kinda moot the origins of the yeast lab versions - none of them, with the possible exception of Imperial Pub, taste anything like the actual Fuller's yeast, and it is easily harvested from things like 1845.

Bottled Spesh is still available, it was certainly bottle conditioned before lockdown but I've not had any in the new branding since.
 
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