Full Boil/Volume Brewing

[AlkiBrewing]

I've been partial boil extract brewing for a couple of years now and want to do a few full boil/volume batches before stepping up to all grain. I am going to buy a 10 gallon kettle to brew 5 gallon batches. It would be much appreciated if someone with more experience could list the steps for a full volume boil. Thanks in advance for any information or suggestions!

Cheers,
Terry

 

[brtisbuck]

Things only change a little.

1. I recommend only about 1/3 of your extract be added at the beginning. Add the balance late, say last 10 minutes.

2. You will get better hops utilization, so it could have an increased effect on your IBU since it will be a lower gravity boil. Your choice to adjust accordingly.

3. Typically you will want to start in the 6 gallon of water range + extract to compensate for boil off.

4. A wort chiller might be handy for helping to cool down that volume of wort faster.

 

[treznor]

As brtisbuck said, your largest difference will be in your hop utilization. With increasing your boil size and not adding all your extract at the beginning, the gravity of your boil will be lower than in a smaller boil or if you added all of your extract at the beginning. This means a hopier beer... so either know that you're going to have a hopier beer or decrease the amount of hops for the same IBU.

For example, with a 1.040 FG 60-min boil vs a 1.080 FG 60-min boil, the 1.040 boil will have around 50% more alpha acids extracted from the hops. Then after you've done all or most of your boil put the rest of your extract in to get to the gravity you need.

 

[AlkiBrewing]

Treznor & Britsbuck,
Thanks for the info I appreciate it. I wasn't aware of the change in hops utilization this is good know. Regarding the late addition of extract. If you add say 1/3 of the total extract called for by the recipe at the prescribed time would you then add the remaining 2/3 with only 10 minutes left on the 60 min boil? One more question, when using an extract recipe with specialty grains, do you first bring the 6 gallons up to say 160-170 degrees then add the grains to steep, and if so for how long, or would you add the grains to the 6 gallons of cool water, bring the temp up to 160-170 then remove them? Thanks again the info is exactly what I needed.

Cheers,
Terry

 

[NineMilBill]

The consensus I've gotten since I've been a student here at HBTU is that you want to steep your grains in a 1 gallon of water per pound of grain ratio. Say you have 2 lbs of grain, so you heat 2 gallons of water up to 155, steep for 30 minutes, remove grain, top off your water to 6 total gallons (to compensate for 1 gallon boil off), bring to a boil, then add your extract and what-not.

There's no doubt that steeping in all 6 gallons makes great beer - I've done it. However, there's some magical water-chemical-grain science that is making this the talked-about method.

 

[user 4295]

Yes, don't steep you steep your specialty grains in the full volume of water. It is important to avoid a dilute steep. The relatively small amount of specialty grains used in an extract with specialty grains recipe is not sufficient to lower the pH of a large volume of water and can lead to the extraction of excess tannins.

2-3 qt of water per pound of specialty grain is a good ratio that will keep the pH low enough to avoid extracting excess tannins. Sparge with another 1 qt/lb of 150˚F water. If you use the grain tea to sparge you can add up to 2 qt/lb of 150˚F water to the grain tea and sparge the grains with that whole amount of liquid.

That's what I do anyway. I saw this procedure outlined in an article about this very subject written by Chris Colby in BYO magazine some years ago.

A lot of people will tell you that it is OK and that you will never notice any astringency from the extraction of excessive tannins from the grain husks.

Having said that, if you look at it from a purely chemical stand point, it is hard to argue against the fact that a pound or two of specialty grains is not capable of lowering the pH of a full volume boil sufficiently enough to avoid the extraction of tannins.

I also do full volume boils, but while the water in the main boil kettle is heating up, I am steeping in a smaller pot on the stove with the proper 2-3 qt of water per pound of specialty grains. The grain tea is added to the main boil kettle, and I sparge the spent grains with a little hot water from the boil kettle.

I have never done a dilute steep so I can't tell you definitively what will happen. I can tell you that I trust what I know about chemistry, and I also trust the brewers from the local club here that don't dilute steep either.

 

[NineMilBill]

The grain tea is added to the main boil kettle, and I sparge the spent grains with a little hot water from the boil kettle.

IIRC, the purpose of sparging the specialty grains is to get every bit of goodness out of it? Does it get more scientific than that?

 

[user 4295]

IIRC, the purpose of sparging the specialty grains is to get every bit of goodness out of it? Does it get more scientific than that?

Nope, that's about it. There is very little in the way of fermentable sugars in the specialty grains, since they've been roasted and the sugars have been caramelized. Sparging them after the steep just ensures that the maximum amount of flavor and color is extracted from them.

 

[StophJS]

Things only change a little.

1. I recommend only about 1/3 of your extract be added at the beginning. Add the balance late, say last 10 minutes.

I feel like that's the opposite of what I've always read on this subject. Isn't late extract addition for partial boils?

 

[brtisbuck]

I feel like that's the opposite of what I've always read on this subject. Isn't late extract addition for partial boils?

At least with LME, no. You only really need to boil the extract long enough to sterilize. You also want some present with the hops. In essence, you are boiling to get the bitterness from the hops and to dilute the extract into your batch volume of water. The longer you boil the extract the more it can caramelize. This will turn your beer darker than expected for the style. Late additions also seem to reduce "extract twang"

 

[Yooper]

If I was doing a full boil with extract, I'd add the extract at the beginning, just like for all-grain batches when you start with the full wort volume. I don't really see an advantage to adding the extract late with a full boil although I guess in theory it could result in a lighter colored beer.

Hops utilization is not a factor at all, as IBUs are independent of wort gravity. If you're really really worried about a too-bitter beer, you could reduce the bittering hops (only) by 20%, but I wouldn't bother.

For steeping, I always recommend treated the specialty grains just like a mash. The reason is sometimes you have "mashing" grains also in there for color and flavor, so if you always do the same exact technique, you don't have to try to figure out which grains go for how long and w

hich can be steeped in a full volume and which must be held in a mash. What I mean is this- always use 1.5 quarts of water per pound of grain and always steep (mash) it at 150-155 and hold for 45 minutes. After that, lift up the bag of grain(s) and pour 170 degree water over it up to your boil volume. That's the technique for a mash, but it is also a perfect technique for steeping grains.

 

[StophJS]

What I mean is this- always use 1.5 quarts of water per pound of grain and always steep (mash) it at 150-155 and hold for 45 minutes. After that, lift up the bag of grain(s) and pour 170 degree water over it up to your boil volume. That's the technique for a mash, but it is also a perfect technique for steeping grains.

Yooper, what about recipes where you are only steeping like a lb or less of grains, like an IPA? You would literally do your steep in 1.5 qt of water and then top off to 5-6 gallons? In a typical brew pot I don't see how that would even full submerge a grain bag.

 

[Yooper]

Yooper, what about recipes where you are only steeping like a lb or less of grains, like an IPA? You would literally do your steep in 1.5 qt of water and then top off to 5-6 gallons? In a typical brew pot I don't see how that would even full submerge a grain bag.

I'm lazy.

I'd start the water off in the BK and do the steep in a small pot. That way, once I"m done steeping, the water is nearly boiling and I'd just add the liquor from the steep into that. I've done it many times!

 

[NineMilBill]

Genius. That alone will cut (what feels like) an hour off my brew time on my electric stove. I also saw a post on an insulation sleeve that helps the pot retain its heat. I love HBT.

 

[treznor]

Hops utilization is not a factor at all, as IBUs are independent of wort gravity. If you're really really worried about a too-bitter beer, you could reduce the bittering hops (only) by 20%, but I wouldn't bother.

That doesn't mesh with Palmer (which bases his statements on empirical evidence) at all who specifically states that hops utilization goes does as boil gravity goes up. I don't have the book in front of me as I'm travelling at the moment, but I was just reading that section a couple days ago.

 

[bullinachinashop]

Hop utilization is dependent on wort gravity.
It's very easy to enter the recipe into a program like BeerSmith or Brewers Friend.
Change your boil amout and adjust the hops to fit the original IBU's.
You should need about 1/2 of the bittering hops, the rest I wouldnt change.
I wouldn't worry about the late extract addition.
I'd rather add the extract preboil, when my water (wort) is @150 degrees and get it all stirred into solution, otherwise, you'll be dealing with boiling wort and potentially scorching it to the bottom of the pot.
Bull

 

[BasementBrewmistress]

Is there a formula for adjusting bitterness for full boils? I do have beersmith, but was hoping for something I can do in the kitchen on the fly, if necessary.

 

[Yooper]

That doesn't mesh with Palmer (which bases his statements on empirical evidence) at all who specifically states that hops utilization goes does as boil gravity goes up. I don't have the book in front of me as I'm travelling at the moment, but I was just reading that section a couple days ago.

Actually, John Palmer has changed his mind, and talks about it pretty extensively at seminars and in person. In short, he says he was wrong in his book, and IBUs ARE independent of wort gravity. He did say that possibly break material impacted IBUs, but not wort gravity.

He started saying this in about 2008, and hasn't updated his book. I haven't talked to him recently, but we had a long conversation last summer about this. I was a little bit drunk (and so was he) so the details are fuzzy, but that's the jist of it.

He's done a few podcasts on this subject with his current philosophy, and I think one was for Basic Brewing Radio called something like "What is an IBU, really?".

 

[Yooper]

Is there a formula for adjusting bitterness for full boils? I do have beersmith, but was hoping for something I can do in the kitchen on the fly, if necessary.

Beersmith isn't all that accurate in this (nor in figuring IBUs of whirlpool additions) but if you want to be sure you don't have too much bitterness, you could reduce the bittering hops (only) by 20%. I wouldn't, unless I as making a very low IBU beer like a cream ale or something where I was very worried about a few IBUs.

 

[bullinachinashop]

[QUOTE=Yooper;3670686]Actually, John Palmer has changed his mind, and talks about it pretty extensively at seminars and in person. In short, he says he was wrong in his book, and IBUs ARE independent of wort gravity. He did say that possibly break material impacted IBUs, but not wort gravity.
He started saying this in about 2008, and hasn't updated his book. I haven't talked to him recently, but we had a long conversation last summer about this. I was a little bit drunk (and so was he) so the details are fuzzy, but that's the jist of it.

He's done a few podcasts on this subject with his current philosophy, and I think one was for Basic Brewing Radio called something like "What is an IBU, really?".[/QUOTE]

That's interesting..... I was once smacked on HBT by a respected contributer on this same topic. I haven't seen any written material on this and will now seek out the BBR podcast.

Yoop, do you remember the timeframe of the podcast?

Bull

 

[Yooper]

That's interesting..... I was once smacked on HBT by a respected contributer on this same topic. I haven't seen any written material on this and will now seek out the BBR podcast.

Yoop, do you remember the timeframe of the podcast?

Bull

Hmmm. It was at least two years ago, because I think we talked about it a bit at the 2010 NHC and it was before the podcast- but still a while ago. I might have it in iTunes, I can look.

Edit- here's the first link where even I was sort of still not ready to admit I was wrong about utilization: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f37/late-addition-hop-utilization-188394/

But when I discovered was this- a low IBU beer is noticeably more bitter- at first. But within two weeks or so, it sure seems like it smooths out and isn't. I noticed a great utilization in a 15 IBU beer, but not in a "bigger" 35 IBU beer.

 

[bullinachinashop]

Thanks Yooper.
I'll give it a listen today.
Bull