Frustrated with glasses of foam

[Kaiser442]

I've been doing a ton of reading on balancing my kegging system, but I'm still having a major foam problem. Right now I'm trying to get my root beer tap squared away while I'm waiting for my honey brown to finish in the secondary.

At first, I heard that I should carbonate at one pressure, and then serve at a low pressure, but my reading led me to the more enlightened view of keeping the keg at the "right" pressure and having enough line resistance to counteract all but about 1psi of the pressure (been to the Crockett brewing page to calculate line length, memorized the CO2 volumes VS pressure VS temp tables etc).

So, I've got my regulator set at 30psi (remember, this is root beer - I'll do 12psi or so for the real beer), the fridge is in the 30's, and I put on 20 feet of 3/16" hose.

The change to the long hose helped, but I was still pouring too much foam - so I did some more reading on here and found that a lot of people run 30-40 feet of hose for root beer! I also found the thread about putting those little plastic mixing sticks from McMaster-Carr in the dip tube of the corny keg.
So, I dropped two of those in - and now I'm getting half foam and half air!

Maybe I should have just done one.... or maybe I'm being too impatient. I just made up this batch of root beer last night (1.5 gallons in a corny keg) and it's not finished carbonating yet... maybe that makes a difference.

Anyway - I feel like I've gone to great lengths to do my research and get this right - and all I've got is a very expensive foam generator.

I REALLY want to get this right before the real beer is done

Thanks for reading my rant - any advice from the old timers would be greatly appreciated.

Oh - might as well slap up some pics!

 

[wyzazz]

Maybe post this in the Kegging/Bottling forum, you'll get some answers there I'd bet.

 

[Kaiser442]

Hmm - good thought, but I don't want to cross-post... maybe a nice mod will move it for me?

 

[homebeerbrewer]

I'm no expert on the subject, since I get a lot of foam at times. But, I run about 10 ft of hose at 12 psi on my kegerator. That seems to be a happy medium, since the first few pours are mostly foam, and then it settles so I can pour a pint with about an inch of head. When the beer gets low, I'll get more foam, but that just alerts me to the impending gush of foam at the end of the supply.

BTW, nice kegerator. Is that custom?

 

[maxamuus]

I am still a bit new, but i have had good success with putting the beer on 30psi for 48 hours and then reducing to 10psi for serving. Never had a issue with foam until the dreaded end of the keg.

I am just using the lines i got with the keg kit. Im guessing the outline is about 5 ft or so.

PS have snuck a taste and on 30psi it was PURE foam.

 

[mattd2]

One thing I read somewhere is with long lines the CO2 can start coming out in the line and then the first pour or so is foam from this then it settles out. I get this with my ~10' lines but it could be because I don't have my kegs hooked up to gas all the time (though I doubt thats the only reason). Try pulling a couple of glasses as you have about 200 ml of beer in 40' of line.

 

[Yooper]

For soda, I'll run 30 psi with 30 feet of beer line (3/16, not 1/4!). Keep the lines cold, and the soda cold, and that will help. Make sure you fully open the tap, and not "pinch" it to try to reduce foaming. I've seen people do that, and it works like a garden hose. Not too strong until you pinch it, and then it sprays HARD. That's what happens with partially opened taps.

So, I think even with 20', you're too short on the line if you want to dispense soda. Maybe only 1.5 gallons in a 5 gallon keg makes a difference because of the headspace, so you can make sure it's fully carbed by waiting a bit. I'm not sure about that, though. I don't know what kind of difference that much headspace will make with foaming with such a high psi. Maybe none.

 

[Zen_Brew]

I'd say 20 ft of hose is definitely a bit on the short end for a 30psi serving pressure. That's why it got better, but not "correct" when you lengthened the line.

I have never done root beer, but for beer, where there is no major change in elevation, as in pumping the beverage to a tap several feet higher than the keg, most of us have found that with a temp around 40 and a serving pressure around 10-11 psi that 9-10 feet of beverage line is the correct amount to prevent foaming.

So it would stand to reason that with your serving pressure that is about triple that of your average ale, that you line lenght should be about triple also, or 27-30 ft. I am assuming that your line is being kept in your kegerator and is also at the same serving temperature as your keg. If this is not the case, it could be the cause of some of the problems as well.

I'd try getting rid of the mixing sticks and running a 30 ft line. If the pour is a bit slow you can chop it down a foot at a time till you find a balance you like.

Edit: If you don't want to go out and buy 30 more feet of line get an in line 3/16 barb to 3/16 barb fitting and just add a 10 foot section of line to your 20 foot line.

 

[Kaiser442]

Thanks for the tips. I think I will try getting the barb adapter to see if a bit more line takes care of it.

In the mixing stick thread it seemed like they were the end-all-be-all for balancing problems, but for whatever reason they don't seem to be doing the trick for me.

To answer a few questions people posted:
I guess it's somewhat of a custom kegerator cabinet. I got this equipment 3rd hand from a succession of home brewers who "got tired of it" . Unfortunately the fridge broke on the trip down from Ft. Worth so I bought that Danby to replace it.

The 20' line is coiled up inside the fridge. The last foot of line sticking out the top of the fridge and running up to the tap is not refrigerated. I expect a bit of foam on the first glass from this bit of warm line and the warm tap, but I don't think that's my main problem.

 

[Zen_Brew]

Let us know how it works out. I agree the 1 foot of unchilled line should not be a big deal, maybe just a bit of foam right at start of pour. I think the extra line will do the trick for you. Don't forget to put some hose clamps on the hose at the barb connection. I get away with not using clamps sometimes at 11 psi, but at 30 psi your probably better off safe than sorry. It would be a big mess if the hose blew off the barb under pressure.

 

[SweetSounds]

You do cover that carboy up right?
Sunlight is a beer killer!

 

[shortyjacobs]

I second (third? fourth?) the longer lines thing. I use 35' of 3/16" on my soda keg at 34 PSI, and I almost want more. You can try the hose barb thing if you want; I've found that the stupid thing just causes MORE foam. Reason is, when diameter is restricted, (like with a barb), velocity increases, and pressure decreases, (basic fluid dynamics). This makes a low pressure zone inside the hose barb, (like a venturi), and knocks CO2 out of suspension.

SO, you can try it if you want, but even adding 10-15 feet of line with a barb may make your problem worse due the barb. I'd just go on McMaster and order 40' of line, and be done with it....(you can always cut it shorter, but IMHO making it longer just makes foam worse a lot of the time).

 

[Kaiser442]

You do cover that carboy up right?
Sunlight is a beer killer!

I haven't been so far, though maybe I should rig something up.

It gets very little light there, despite the look of that picture. The kitchen lights are off all day and the roof over the back porch keeps any direct sunlight from getting in.

I was reading the noob forum lead-pipe-whatever thread last night and someone said not to squeeze the bag of specialty grains because it will give a tannin flavor... I squeezed the heck out of that thing, despite the instructions saying not to (based on context I assumed they just didn't want you to squeeze it so you wouldn't burn yourself). Hopefully that won't mess things up. I took a taste when I transferred to the secondary (which I did a bit too early) and it didn't taste bad.

Brew and learn, right?

shortyjacobs: Thanks - I might just hit Austin Homebrew at lunch and pick up a 40 footer (they're a few miles from my office... lucky me )

 

[SweetSounds]

I haven't been so far, though maybe I should rig something up.

It gets very little light there, despite the look of that picture. The kitchen lights are off all day and the roof over the back porch keeps any direct sunlight from getting in.

I was reading the noob forum lead-pipe-whatever thread last night and someone said not to squeeze the bag of specialty grains because it will give a tannin flavor... I squeezed the heck out of that thing, despite the instructions saying not to (based on context I assumed they just didn't want you to squeeze it so you wouldn't burn yourself). Hopefully that won't mess things up. I took a taste when I transferred to the secondary (which I did a bit too early) and it didn't taste bad.

Brew and learn, right?

shortyjacobs: Thanks - I might just hit Austin Homebrew at lunch and pick up a 40 footer (they're a few miles from my office... lucky me )

Some squeeze, some don't.
But you need to put a shirt on that carboy, at a minimum. Any UV light WILL skunk your beer - And that sucks.
This is why most beer bottles are brown, and why we all ferment in the dark, or cover the fermenters...

 

[j1laskey]

Is the o-ring at the dip tube in good condition? I had extensive foaming, until I checked that o-ring, which looked like one on my dogs chew toys.

 

[shortyjacobs]

Yeah, as Sweetsounds says, avoid UV at all costs. My ferm room is in my basement, in a windowless room, and I even have a regular incandescant bulb in there, (instead of a CFL), because they produce less UV than a CFL.

Of course, BierMuncher has enough fluorescent tubes in his beer room to outshine the sun, and I'm betting he still makes good beer, so maybe I'm a bit paranoid.

In any case, good luck with the foam....I know the lucky feeling, I live in the Twin Cities, and can hit up either Northern Brewer or Midwest on my way home . Today is NB, for ~45 lbs of grain to make 2x 10 gal batches tomorrow

 

[Zen_Brew]

I second (third? fourth?) the longer lines thing. I use 35' of 3/16" on my soda keg at 34 PSI, and I almost want more. You can try the hose barb thing if you want; I've found that the stupid thing just causes MORE foam. Reason is, when diameter is restricted, (like with a barb), velocity increases, and pressure decreases, (basic fluid dynamics). This makes a low pressure zone inside the hose barb, (like a venturi), and knocks CO2 out of suspension.

SO, you can try it if you want, but even adding 10-15 feet of line with a barb may make your problem worse due the barb. I'd just go on McMaster and order 40' of line, and be done with it.

You know that makes perfect sense. I'm sure shortyj is correct. I wasn't considering the restriction in the line from the barb, which will change the pressure dynamics and create a nucleation point. I was thinking about the economics of abandoning your 20 ft hose and having to buy a 30 ft one. Unfortunately you are probably best off getting the full length of longer hose.