Frustrated with extract brewing, considering building a mash tun

[homebrewer_99]

I see one problems right off the bat.

Your water to grain/malt ratio is way off which caused it to be so bitter.

Since your grain was probably in a bag I would guess it's only 1/2 lb at most.

Change your technique a bit. Heat up only 1/2 gal of water and add your grain to it.

Heat up another 1/2 gal and rinse (sparge) the grain bag with it. You should end up with a gal or so of water. If not then top off to 1 to 1.5 gals. Add 1 lb of DME or LME, whichever is the lightest in color.

You can get a bitter brew at 4%AA's using about 6 - 6.5 lbs of malt in 5.25 gals so if you want it more bitter you can use more hops depending on the style you're brewing.

Boil for 45 mins, remove from heat and add remaining malts, steep for 15 mins.

If you are brewing a light colored beer and use Irish Moss I will reduce my boil time to 30 mins then add in the IM, boil for 15 mins then remove it from the heat.

If you are using filtered tap water there's no need to pre-boil it. Boiling removes the oxygen and you have to work at aerating the wort.

Just my $0.02.

 

[Finn]

Very true but with relatively small beers like you're brewing, these elements are "make your beer better" type of things, not "why does it totally undrinkable" things. Especially this time of year (temp control-wise). File them away for later use with bigger and more tricky beers after you solve the immediate problem, which I suspect is somehow related to contamination ... you are rinsing the Straight-A off, right?

Or maybe it is the recipe. Looking at your technique, it seems pretty solid. But only a hard-core hophead would enjoy the recipe you posted here. +1 on ditching your LHBS as a recipe source. In fact, I'd go straight to Jamil Zanisheff (his recipes are at www.beerdujour.com or just do a Google search for "Jamil Show Recipes". Speaking of the Jamil Show, go to http://thebrewingnetwork.com/jamil.php and check some out. They're really informative podcasts, one for each contest style. Jamil's Ordinary Bitter recipe is anything but ordinary and is a great place to start. I hear really good things about his robust-porter recipe, too.

Also, what the hell does "bitter" mean? Sour? Or excessively hoppy?

So you're a Stumptowner. Do you get out much? Joel at Corvallis Brewing Supply is a great resource and sells stuff pretty cheap too. He's on the main southbound Highway 99 drag through town, just south of the bridge that goes to I-5, and I've learned the hard way that he's open 11-6 Tues-Fri and on Saturdays (hours unknown) (NOT Sundays or Mondays, when I do most of my brewing!) Also, if you're ever coming this way, let me know! I've got a fully stocked kegerator now with 4 things on draft, at least one of which is drinkable, and would be delighted to share a pint with you.

Two things that haven't been mentioned yet are wort aeration and fermentation temperature control, both of which are critical to a heathly fermentation.

Aeration can be accomplished by adding top-off water from the tap (which typically has lots of oxygen already in it), vigorously shaking the fermenter, pouring the wort between buckets a few times, or using an O2 tank with an airstone (my preferred method).

Controlling fermentation temp is key. I use a chest freezer with an external controller to keep the temp of my fermenting ales between 62º and 68º, depending on the style. You can use a large bucket with water and ice bottles to achieve the same effect (search the forum for temp control and you'll get lots of ideas).

With fresh extract, good recipes, and health fermentation you should be able to make great beer with extract - lots of people do.

Tenchiro has some really good advice, but I disagree that pre-made kits should be avoided. I have used extract kits from 7-Bridges, Austin Homebrew, and MoreBeer with success.

 

[Tenchiro]

Tenchiro has some really good advice, but I disagree that pre-made kits should be avoided. I have used extract kits from 7-Bridges, Austin Homebrew, and MoreBeer with success.

I am sure there are decent kits out there, it is just when I think about them I imagine boxes of ingredients sitting on shelves, waiting to be sold. I may be mistaken, I mean they probably do assemble them per order. I just have that idea in my head so I always just order the ingredients I want separately.

 

[Beerthoven]

I am sure there are decent kits out there, it is just when I think about them I imagine boxes of ingredients sitting on shelves, waiting to be sold. I may be mistaken, I mean they probably do assemble them per order. I just have that idea in my head so I always just order the ingredients I want separately.

I hear ya. Kits can be hit or miss sometimes. I don't use kits much any more, but when I do I only get them from homebrew shops that make up their own and have high turnover. I'd never get a "factory made" kit, because, like you say, who knows how long they've been sitting around.

 

[Revvy]

I am sure there are decent kits out there, it is just when I think about them I imagine boxes of ingredients sitting on shelves, waiting to be sold. I may be mistaken, I mean they probably do assemble them per order. I just have that idea in my head so I always just order the ingredients I want separately.

It depends on where you're getting your kits from...If you're ordering online from a place like AHS or Northern Brewer they're pretty much made up right there for your order...Or if you go to a high turnover LHBS, you will get kits that a only a few weeks or a couple months old.

I shop at a high turnover store in Michigan, and although I don't brew kits anymore, the BB kits I did buy usually had close 2 years left on their "use by" dates, which means that they all proabably came in on orders shortly before I purchased them....

Which, for my store, is understandable because after they loaded the n00bies up with the equipment they needed, they walked them over to the kit aisle talked them into a kit rather than working them through a recipe.

You have an equal chance of your "Per order" ingredients having sat around on shelves somewhere...especially if you are using a grain that might not get a lot of requests for...I'm not talking 2-row, or Crystal 60, but if you are ordering victory, or special roast, that might not get a lot of turnover, and therefore might not be that fresh...

And don't forget, most of the distributors hold back some of their hops for kits, last winter if I wanted casacade from my LHBS, the only way I could get it was in a BB kit...their instore stock was gone.

 

[Finn]

Well, a beer kit is just a recipe that comes with the ingredients, so you just have to remember that it's only as good as the recipe. Personally, I like to put things together myself, which is really easy to do and not much more expensive -- sometimes cheaper -- than a kit. Plus, you can, after you figure out what a half-pound of Crystal 60 tastes like, add it to the recipe or pull it out. You can also use different yeasts to adjust your ester profiles and fermentation percentages. Flying your own wing, you'll come up with something unique that only you make. Which, really, isn't that why we brew?

Cheers!

--Finn

It depends on where you're getting your kits from...If you're ordering online from a place like AHS or Northern Brewer they're pretty much made up right there for your order...Or if you go to a high turnover LHBS, you will get kits that a only a few weeks or a couple months old.

I shop at a high turnover store in Michigan, and although I don't brew kits anymore, the BB kits I did buy usually had close 2 years left on their "use by" dates, which means that they all proabably came in on orders shortly before I purchased them....

Which, for my store, is understandable because after they loaded the n00bies up with the equipment they needed, they walked them over to the kit aisle talked them into a kit rather than working them through a recipe.

You have an equal chance of your "Per order" ingredients having sat around on shelves somewhere...especially if you are using a grain that might not get a lot of requests for...I'm not talking 2-row, or Crystal 60, but if you are ordering victory, or special roast, that might not get a lot of turnover, and therefore might not be that fresh...

And don't forget, most of the distributors hold back some of their hops for kits, last winter if I wanted casacade from my LHBS, the only way I could get it was in a BB kit...their instore stock was gone.

 

[njnear76]

+1 on the How to Brew.

I read this thing front and back several times before I even attempted homebrewing. The result: Good beer every time. I moved on to All Grain, but I still love all my extract beers. They all turned out great.

Water: If you use faucet water, make sure that you get rid of the chlorine by using Campden tablets. Don't use exclusively RO water. If you don't like the taste of your faucet water go with cheap Spring Water.

Temps: Keep your fermentation temperatures close to 60-65F.

Yeast: Use Nottingham Dry Yeast. It's a hardy and very neutral yeast that requires no starter. I like dry yeast so much that I have never used anything else. I have fermented down to 55F with Nottingham. How is that for hardy?

Aeration: Make sure that wort is aerated prior to pitching your yeast. I usually pour my wort back and forth between the pot and fermenter 10-20 times.

Ditch the Secondary (Clearing Tank): A lot of guys will jump on me for this, but whatever. I never used one and even the beer gods Jamil and Palmer rarely use one for their ales. Irish moss is a must though if you decide to go this route.

Mike

 

[Aleforge]

I had this very same issue when starting out. My first few batches always had a weird twang to them. I wrote it off as the mythical "extract" twang syndrome. But as soon as I stopped using my tap water and went with "spring" it was gone. I also second that you can indeed make very good extract batches. Going AG really only gives you more control over the process and the ablility to fine tune your recipe. If the extract is of good quality, and fresh it shouldn't degrade the beer.

+ 1 to the fact that many extract brewers have won competitions over their AG running mates.


Now that being off my chest I am also in the process of going all-grain this summer. I want the "hands-on" aspect from start to finish! But I never have regretted an extract I have made!

 

[DeathBrewer]

didn't read the whole thread, but caught a few points which might help (and may have already been mentioned)

1. Check your water
2. Leave your beers in the fermenter longer. i do AT THE VERY LEAST: 2 weeks primary, 2 weeks secondary, 6 weeks bottle. it REALLY makes a difference when you don't rush things. if you're impatiant, make a bunch of hefeweizens (3 weeks primary, straight to bottle for 3 weeks) to tide you over until you get a good stock going.
3. Use nottingham yeast for all your regular (non-belgian, non-wheat) beers until you have some great stuff under you belt. it'll give you a better idea of where your other "off" flavors are coming from.
4. Post your recipes on here for critiquing before brewing. you'll learn more on these forums faster than you will anywhere else.
5. Temperature control...i didn't catch where you are fermenting, but if it's over 70°F, it's too hot.

if you want to start partial mashing, you do not need any additional equipment. PM me and I will give you some methods and can also provide some simple, tried and true recipes. I can explain what ingredients impart what flavor and all that nonsense to give you a better understanding as well.

Cheers,
DB

 

[missing link]

Before going AG, try going to full boils with late extract addiditions. Get the Jamil book, it is written for extract brews, full boil. When doing a full boil you get much less darkening of the wort.

Linc

 

[Jonnio]

I am sure there are decent kits out there, it is just when I think about them I imagine boxes of ingredients sitting on shelves, waiting to be sold. I may be mistaken, I mean they probably do assemble them per order. I just have that idea in my head so I always just order the ingredients I want separately.

If you order a kit from AHS your getting the same exact ingredients as if you ordered bulk grain/extract to your own recipe.

 

[DeathBrewer]

my LHBS goes through their kits so fast that they rarely sit there for more than a couple of days. All pretty good beers, too.

 

[homebrewer_99]

+! on the trying several tweaks using the same yeast to try to determine what/where recipes MAY go off a bit. If they're all good then your technique is tested.

 

[smalltown2001]

Well I tried both beers last night (The Pale Ale and Fat Tire Clone), and they didn't taste as bad as when I tried the sample after bottling. The Fat tire is close to 2 weeks in bottles, and the pale ale is 1 week in bottles, so I do understand that the beer is still really green. The pale ale does not taste as bitter as the first sample, and the fat tire is mellowing out as well. I'll let it age for another couple weeks and see how they are coming along. Thanks again for all the advice. I am gonna try spring water next time, see what difference that makes, and also try other variables to get closer to a decent brew. However, I was thinking today, if the pale ale and fat tire won't be as bad as I originally thought, maybe I should try another style to brew next (thinking of a red ale like St. Rogue's Red Ale), so that I don't have cases and cases of pale ale and fat tire sitting around (my original thought was to brew nothing but pale ales and fat tires until I got a good batch). Although all that beer will not be a bad thing , but in your experience in brewing, have you learned more from brewing different styles or brewing the same style but with different recipe and different variables? I think either way, I am going to have lots of beer on hand this fall! Come on over and we'll drink it all!

 

[homebrewer_99]

I currently have over 100 bottles of mead, 4 cases and 15 kegs of assorted brews on hand...

 

[beesy]

I started brewing in January with a buddy. He got a majority of the equipment at a garage sale with a kit for $25. We did 2 extracts then went to all grain. Built our own mash tun (which consistenty gets 83% effic), whole nine yards. We mainly did it because we realized we liked brewing so much, we knew we would go all grain at some time, so didn't f around and just did it. We also wanted to save money too. Having said that, the second beer we ever did was an oatmeal stout, modified a sam smith recipe, and i still will say it was the best beer we ever made (after 5 months of conditioning). jUst depends on your situation. If you have some mechanical knowledge and some extra cash, make or buy the all-grain equipment. If we weren't mechanically inclined or were strapped for cash, I think we would still be content doing extract. They are, after all, less work.

 

[Finn]

Yow! A week? You should've tasted my second batch of stout when I bottled it off. Ee-yuk. (Mostly it was the oatmeal, but still, it tasted really bad.) This kept me from messing with it for a good two weeks and by then, it was really good.

Relax, don't worry, have a homebrew! Another week or two and it'll probly be just fine.

I highly recommend brewing different styles. If it was me, here's what I'd have on the burner:

1. Jamil's ordinary bitter. Nice, well balanced, small beer that's ready for bottling in about two weeks, reducing the pressure on you to get into bigger beers that aren't quite ready yet. Also, it's a perfect benchmark from which to start building your own perfect Brit bitter.

2. Gawawd, I do love my stout! But it's got four pounds of flaked barley in it. It finishes in the thirties. Woohoo!

3. Real IPA, with lots of malt backbone to carry that heavy citric hop load. I'm talkin' about ten pounds of pale extract, 2 ounces of Centennials and four ounces of Cascade. No, five -- one to pitch into the carboy with a week left to go. Mmmmmm!

4. Maybe a nice sweet Southern English Brown ...

Have fun!

--Finn

Well I tried both beers last night (The Pale Ale and Fat Tire Clone), and they didn't taste as bad as when I tried the sample after bottling. The Fat tire is close to 2 weeks in bottles, and the pale ale is 1 week in bottles, so I do understand that the beer is still really green. The pale ale does not taste as bitter as the first sample, and the fat tire is mellowing out as well. I'll let it age for another couple weeks and see how they are coming along. Thanks again for all the advice. I am gonna try spring water next time, see what difference that makes, and also try other variables to get closer to a decent brew. However, I was thinking today, if the pale ale and fat tire won't be as bad as I originally thought, maybe I should try another style to brew next (thinking of a red ale like St. Rogue's Red Ale), so that I don't have cases and cases of pale ale and fat tire sitting around (my original thought was to brew nothing but pale ales and fat tires until I got a good batch). Although all that beer will not be a bad thing , but in your experience in brewing, have you learned more from brewing different styles or brewing the same style but with different recipe and different variables? I think either way, I am going to have lots of beer on hand this fall! Come on over and we'll drink it all!

 

[Righlander]

some of the extract beers i tasted at my homebrew store are simply amazing. try switching to DME instead of LME

 

[beerthirty]

Alright, so what do you guys think of this recipe, this is my latest batch of pale ale that I got a recipe from a local homebrew shop:

3.3 -lbs Coopers Light Malt Syrup
2.0 -lbs. Coopers Light dry malt extract
1 -lb Munich Malt 10L
1 -lb Great Western 2-Row pale malt
2 -oz Centennial Hops (boil 60 minutes)
1 -oz Cascade Hops (boil 15 minutes)
1 -oz Cascade Hops (boil 5 minutes)
1 -Teaspoon Irish Moss (boil 60 minutes)
¾ -cup corn sugar for bottling
White labs California Ale Yeast WLP001

original gravity 1.050
final gravity 1.014
alcohol content 4.7%

It wasn't until after I brewed it and put the recipe through Beersmith when I realized the IBU's were going to be sky high. I did anticipate a hoppy beer, but I guess you need more malt presence if you are going to drop 2 oz of Centennial Hops first thing.

I like the idea of eliminating unneccesary steps ( yeast starter, wort chiller) to see if it does or doesn't affect the beer. My overall goal this summer is to brew two types of beers: Amber Ales and Pale Ales, try different recipes and really try to hone in on producing a good batch, and then start trying other styles. However, wouldn't a pale ale not be able to hide as many flaws as a big dark beer would? Anyways, thanks for the advice, I'll keep at it and get your guys help when I come close to brew day.

I think it would be very bitter, I would move an oz. of the centenial to dry hop in the keg to give it more flavor and aroma. I just did a california IPA with similar hops bill and found the wort to be more bitter than I was hoping for. After trying the IPA at Papago Brewery I'm hoping to come close to that, slight bitterness with high hop flavor and aroma. It will become a permanent on tap beer when I duplicate it.