Frustrated with extract brewing, considering building a mash tun

[smalltown2001]

I just bottled my sixth batch of extract beer yesterday, and was not very happy with the sample that I tasted, it was way to bitter to be considered beer. And I suppose I'm really frustrated right now that it doesn't seem like I am making improvements on the final product. My first two batches (Amber ale and Heffeweizen) weren't that good, but I cast that aside to not knowing a whole lot about brewing. The next two batches I ordered from Northern Brewer, (IPA and Dubbel), the IPA tasted like cough syrup, but the Dubbel wasn't bad. And now my last two (Fat Tire clone and Pale Ale), well the FT tastes like a heavy tea, and the pale ale is way too bitter. I sanitize everything with Iodophor, use Straight A cleanser to wash all equipment before and after brewing and transferring, the last 4 batches I've used a yeast starter, all batches I use liquid yeast, the last 4 batches I've used a wort chiller which can chill it to 80 degrees within 10 minutes. All batches sit in primary for 1 week, secondary for 2 weeks, and then in bottles for three. I take gravity readings to make sure the beer is within range. I guess I am lost whether I should stick with extract beers and keep on tweaking procedures and ingredients, or make a mash tun and start doing partial mash/all grain beers to improve on the flavor. Is it really possible to make a decent beer with extract, or is that just a hoax? Also, I just discovered BeerSmith, and so I've been putting recipes into there to see what it says. But I am not sure if it is just extract brewing in general, my procedure for brewing, or just finding a decent recipe to make good beer. I am determined to brew a beer that I actually like to drink, but for now that goal seems far away. Any suggestions?

 

[Hoosierbrewer]

I have been happy with almost all beers. I had one that had too much candi sugar added. I think you can brew an excellent PM beer.

I usually do 2 weeks in primary and then 3-5 in secondary. AG is awsome, but you can make excellent beer with PM.

Pick a stlye of beer you love. I love English Pale ales and bitters, then brew your own recipe. Post it here and we will help you. I would only plan on using DME for a portion of your base malt and mash some 2 row with your specialty grains. Without more info on each beer, we cannot really provide guidance to the off flavors.

 

[bottle-o-jeff]

I'm in the same boat but with fewer batches. I've brewed 3, two of which I've tasted (third in a secondary now). They've all been way too dark and just don't taste like they should. They're still good, but just not like they should be. I love wheat beers, and extract wheats just aren't the same.

Anyways, I purchased "How to Brew: Everything you need to know to brew beer right the first time" and I think I know what most of my problems are. I'm just going to skip straight to AG because it solves most of them.

 

[Choguy03]

Go big or go home!:rockin:

 

[blacklab]

Partial Mash or All Grain brewing is the answer. IMHO you might as well go all grain as opposed to PM.

Sounds like you've got the basic teznique down...time to step it up!

 

[Tenchiro]

I think one of the keys to good extract brews really is in the late addition. I add one pound of extract in addition to whatever grains I have steeped at the beginning of the boil and withhold the remaining extract until 15 minutes. You will always come out a bit darker than you would with an AG brew, but that only is noticeable in the lighter beers. The Hefe I did recently (for example) is easily as light as commercial examples, and in my opinion tastes better. You will get better hop utilization this way though so things can be more bitter than expected so re-calculation of your hops may be necessary.

The next beer I make I am going to do an extreme late addition, and only add the majority of the extract at 5 minutes. Which should be about the minimum time for sterilization.

 

[Brett0424]

Honestly, if you can't make good extract beers you won't make good all grain beers. I definitely vote for jumping in and going all grain but don't expect it to make better beer right away. Experience makes better beer. For example: having a beer come out too bitter will not change by going all grain. It will change by knowing how much of what you're putting in there, and how it will affect the beer when used according to your personal techniques. Go for it, in the end the beer will be better, but it's not the answer to your problem.

 

[Yooper]

Well, I always recommend going AG to anyone considering it! But, I think in your case that you might still be disappointed. I really believe that in order to make a good AG beer, you have to be able to make a good extract beer. Now, I understand that the first two had some issues (new brewers are always learning). But after buying good quality kits, those beers should have been good! I made some excellent beers with extract kits, that's what encouraged me to go to PM and then to AG. I've still had some very good extract brews that friends have made, or that I've received in a beer swap. So, I can't point to the extract brewing as your issue.

So, I think the problem is either your technique (which sounds ok at first glance), or your water. Those problems (if that's what it is that's causing the bad batches) will remain if not corrected before going AG.

 

[maxr]

I think that the most difficult thing for me as a beginner was figuring out what caused the various off-tastes in my beer. In my first year of brewing, for example, I made a passable IPA and then re-made the same recipe and found it to be undrinkable. The best advice that I've ever gotten is to brew the same recipe repeatedly until you understand what changes are necessary to the recipe, equipment, and procedure to achieve the desired result. I think that brewing small batches (3 gal) can help with this as long as your batch size is consistent. This may sound boring and you may end up pouring beer down the drain, but in the end you'll be a much better brewer.

edit:
I re-read your original post and would also recommend eliminating as much of the equipment and as many of the steps as possible at first. I had great results without using a wort chiller. Just sanitize your carboy, add cold, clean water, and then the sterile, boiling-hot wort. I've also never used a yeast starter with White Labs liquid yeast and never had a problem.

 

[McKBrew]

Are you brewing beers that you like commercially? For example, if you are making an IPA have you tried other IPA's to see what they should taste like? If your homebrews are not matching up to their commercial examples, you really need to look at the process end before trying to switch to AG as Yooper mentioned. I wouldn't expect every beer to be perfect, but maybe there is something you are missing.

Keep at it and things will work out for you.

 

[Tenchiro]

Also here are some of the things I feel to be important as an extract brewer.

1. I never use pre-made kits. I always assemble my own from scratch to ensure that all the ingredients are fresh.
2. I never use hopped extract or extract from cans. When I use liquid extract I buy it from home brew stores that bottle their own from bulk barrels. It is generally fresher.
3. I generally use dry yeast, partly because of the ease of use but also because most dry strains finish very clean. Unless you are going for some specific flavor profile of the yeast there isn't a reason to spend the extra money on liquid strains.
4. I don't notice much of a difference between leaf and pellet hops for bittering. But for aroma leaf hops seem much more pleasant. Although I could be imagining things.
5. Read as many recipes as possible, no matter what the source. It gives you a good idea of what ratios of which ingredients to use and what goes into each style. Plus comparing ingredients in clone recipes to what the actual brewers list on their sites also gives an idea of how close they may be to the real thing.
6. Specialty grains are paramount to providing flavor and body to an extract beer. I generally shoot for 1 to 1.5 pounds per 5 gallon batch. I steep them for about 30 min at 150-155 right in the kettle and water volume I will be boiling. A good crush on them is also very important to increase the surface and utilization of each grain.
7. Tap water is ok for the most part as long as there are no off flavors. If it tastes funny at least run it through a charcoal filter. If that doesn't work, get the store brand filtered water.

Not sure how much of these tips help or whatnot, but they are my general guidelines that I tend to follow when brewing.

 

[Tankard]

Is it really possible to make a decent beer with extract, or is that just a hoax?

Extract beers can, and DO, win beer competitions. That's not to say that the best extract beer is just as good as the best all grain beer, because it isn't. All grain beers offer the freshest product possible because everything is being made from scratch. Extract beers will always be limited by the age and quality of the extract. However, very good beer is possible with extract. I know from experience. Nobody would brew with extract if it didn't produce good beer.

My guess is that there is something in your brewing procedure that is throwing things off balance. My suggestion would be to read "How to Brew" all the way through, focusing on the extract brewing sections. You can buy the book, or read the short version on www.howtobrew.com I made very good beer on my first try by following the concepts outlined in Palmer's book.

All grain is definitely something to shoot for in the future, but I wouldn't put the cart before the horse at this particular point. You need to nail the extract brewing process before moving to all grain because all grain is a more involved and difficult process overall.

Good luck, I look forward to hearing about your progress.

 

[Finn]

I just bottled my sixth batch of extract beer yesterday, and was not very happy with the sample that I tasted, it was way to bitter to be considered beer. And I suppose I'm really frustrated right now that it doesn't seem like I am making improvements on the final product. My first two batches (Amber ale and Heffeweizen) weren't that good, but I cast that aside to not knowing a whole lot about brewing. The next two batches I ordered from Northern Brewer, (IPA and Dubbel), the IPA tasted like cough syrup, but the Dubbel wasn't bad. And now my last two (Fat Tire clone and Pale Ale), well the FT tastes like a heavy tea, and the pale ale is way too bitter. I sanitize everything with Iodophor, use Straight A cleanser to wash all equipment before and after brewing and transferring, the last 4 batches I've used a yeast starter, all batches I use liquid yeast, the last 4 batches I've used a wort chiller which can chill it to 80 degrees within 10 minutes. All batches sit in primary for 1 week, secondary for 2 weeks, and then in bottles for three. I take gravity readings to make sure the beer is within range. I guess I am lost whether I should stick with extract beers and keep on tweaking procedures and ingredients, or make a mash tun and start doing partial mash/all grain beers to improve on the flavor. Is it really possible to make a decent beer with extract, or is that just a hoax? Also, I just discovered BeerSmith, and so I've been putting recipes into there to see what it says. But I am not sure if it is just extract brewing in general, my procedure for brewing, or just finding a decent recipe to make good beer. I am determined to brew a beer that I actually like to drink, but for now that goal seems far away. Any suggestions?

I have a suggestion ... for the smaller beers, the Fat Tire and the pale ale type stuff, try just leaving it on the lees for a month. Don't worry about autolysis, a month isn't long enough to get it started. Then, rack it into bottles and give it three more weeks. It's a possibility that all that handling is contaminating it. Get a spray bottle and fill it with 190-proof Everclear, and use it liberally. (You can use StarSan too, but I trust alcohol more.) Spray it on your hands, spray it on your equipment, and never use your mouth to start a siphon.

I've made a couple great beers with extract, a pilsner and a dopplebock, the pilsner is hard to drink because I left it in the sun like a dumba$$ but otherwise it's great. Going AG before you solve your problem will cost you less cash per batch but if it was me, I'd hold off. Why add steps to a procedure when you're troubleshooting?

 

[smalltown2001]

Alright, so what do you guys think of this recipe, this is my latest batch of pale ale that I got a recipe from a local homebrew shop:

3.3 -lbs Coopers Light Malt Syrup
2.0 -lbs. Coopers Light dry malt extract
1 -lb Munich Malt 10L
1 -lb Great Western 2-Row pale malt
2 -oz Centennial Hops (boil 60 minutes)
1 -oz Cascade Hops (boil 15 minutes)
1 -oz Cascade Hops (boil 5 minutes)
1 -Teaspoon Irish Moss (boil 60 minutes)
¾ -cup corn sugar for bottling
White labs California Ale Yeast WLP001

original gravity 1.050
final gravity 1.014
alcohol content 4.7%

It wasn't until after I brewed it and put the recipe through Beersmith when I realized the IBU's were going to be sky high. I did anticipate a hoppy beer, but I guess you need more malt presence if you are going to drop 2 oz of Centennial Hops first thing.

I like the idea of eliminating unneccesary steps ( yeast starter, wort chiller) to see if it does or doesn't affect the beer. My overall goal this summer is to brew two types of beers: Amber Ales and Pale Ales, try different recipes and really try to hone in on producing a good batch, and then start trying other styles. However, wouldn't a pale ale not be able to hide as many flaws as a big dark beer would? Anyways, thanks for the advice, I'll keep at it and get your guys help when I come close to brew day.

 

[Tenchiro]

Alright, so what do you guys think of this recipe, this is my latest batch of pale ale that I got a recipe from a local homebrew shop:

The recipe as they have it is far more IPA than American Pale Ale. I am not sure what those grains they suggested would add to the beer either.

Here is what I would use to make an American Pale Ale, in the same spirit as the one they have listed.

.5# American Crystal 40L (Steeped at 150 for 30 min)
.5# American Dextrin (Cara-Pils) Malt (Steeped at 150 for 30 min)
6# Munton's Extra Light DME (5# left out of boil until 15 min)
1 -oz Centennial Hops (boil 60 minutes)
1 -oz Cascade Hops (boil 15 minutes)
1 -oz Cascade Hops (boil 5 minutes)
Safale US-05 Yeast

I am thinking this would be a nice citrusy, crisp summer brew with a bit of body and a nice red color I like to see in APA's. I might even cut down on the 15 min hop addition to .5 I also didn't include the Irish Moss because given sufficient settling my beers come out quite clear without it and also because sometimes I like a bit of cloudiness in the beer. The 1oz of Cascades for aroma will give it a nice nose. I chose the 40L for some flavor and the red color and the Cara-Pils simply for head retention.

 

[Yooper]

I like the idea of eliminating unneccesary steps ( yeast starter, wort chiller) to see if it does or doesn't affect the beer. My overall goal this summer is to brew two types of beers: Amber Ales and Pale Ales, try different recipes and really try to hone in on producing a good batch, and then start trying other styles. However, wouldn't a pale ale not be able to hide as many flaws as a big dark beer would? Anyways, thanks for the advice, I'll keep at it and get your guys help when I come close to brew day.

I would NOT lose the wort chiller. Chilling the wort quickly is one of the most important steps. Since you boil the chiller in the wort, there is NO way that's the issue.

Dry yeast would be fine, though.

Could you tell us what kind of water you're using? I still think that is the biggest issue, since you've had the problem all along.

Here's my suggestions:
Lose the Straight A cleanser. Unless the equipment is obviously dirty, a thorough rinse is all that is required before sanitizing. If it looks clean, it is clean. Then sanitize with properly diluted sanitizer. Of course you'll sanitize all equipment- hoses (inside and out), the fermenters, airlocks, hydrometer, wine thief etc. But don't use cleanser on everything, unless it's dirty. I thoroughly rinse all my fermenters immediately after use, so rarely do I use oxyclean or anything on them unless they stay grungy after that rinse.

Make an ultra simple recipe- so that you can find out if that turns out. I have many simple recipes for beginners available (and many of us do), so if you mention a style you like, I can send you the recipe and instructions.

Buy a different water this time. Maybe bottled spring water if you're using reverse osmosis, or vice versa.

One other thought I've had- could you post one of your recipes, step by step, with what you did, what you boiled, etc. So we can see exactly what you did at what time and what temperature. Maybe something will stick out.

 

[Beerthoven]

Two things that haven't been mentioned yet are wort aeration and fermentation temperature control, both of which are critical to a heathly fermentation.

Aeration can be accomplished by adding top-off water from the tap (which typically has lots of oxygen already in it), vigorously shaking the fermenter, pouring the wort between buckets a few times, or using an O2 tank with an airstone (my preferred method).

Controlling fermentation temp is key. I use a chest freezer with an external controller to keep the temp of my fermenting ales between 62º and 68º, depending on the style. You can use a large bucket with water and ice bottles to achieve the same effect (search the forum for temp control and you'll get lots of ideas).

With fresh extract, good recipes, and health fermentation you should be able to make great beer with extract - lots of people do.

Tenchiro has some really good advice, but I disagree that pre-made kits should be avoided. I have used extract kits from 7-Bridges, Austin Homebrew, and MoreBeer with success.

 

[Hoosierbrewer]

Well, I always recommend going AG to anyone considering it! But, I think in your case that you might still be disappointed. I really believe that in order to make a good AG beer, you have to be able to make a good extract beer. Now, I understand that the first two had some issues (new brewers are always learning). But after buying good quality kits, those beers should have been good! I made some excellent beers with extract kits, that's what encouraged me to go to PM and then to AG. I've still had some very good extract brews that friends have made, or that I've received in a beer swap. So, I can't point to the extract brewing as your issue.

So, I think the problem is either your technique (which sounds ok at first glance), or your water. Those problems (if that's what it is that's causing the bad batches) will remain if not corrected before going AG.

Great point about the water. I used only RO water until I moved from Michigan to Indiana. I tried one batch with my local water and my Mother-in-law noticed that the beer tasted different. It was a kit beer that I brewed for her constantly when I was in Michigan. I now use 50/50 when all grain and will just use RO when it is a PM. (I still have people purchase me kits with LME or DME in it. Why waste it?)

 

[Lucky Dog Brewing]

I started as an extract brewer about 18 months ago, and I don't doubt that competition winning beer can be made by extract. In fact I made a few decent beers with extract but.....

If you have the money to invest do it! Even a simple AG rig then do it! Period! (you don't have to go crazy with pumps and controllers at first or even ever)

I love the beer I'm making now and it is a blast. Great way to spend a Saturday afternoon. I just started piecing my AG set up together about 6 months ago and now I have 4 batches under my belt

Biermunchers Centenial Blonde which was awesome and a good 1st AG
Then a Kolsch I came up with that is aging
A Porter in the secondary right now
and an American Amber in the primary

I can't lager yet but I'm loving what I got going now and I'm starting to dial in all my equipment and capabilities. It might seem scary at first but its easy fun and makes better beer IMHO. Take the step if you can.


BMW-LDB

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

+1 to all the good advice already offered. Don't make the jump to AG until you can make a good extract beer. I am a firm believer that my AG beers are superior to the extracts I made, but by the end of my extract career, I was making damn fine beer, and only a hand full of people could even tell the difference with the switch to AG.

Make good beer with the simple process first. Then make great beer, with the more complex and controlled method. (don't flame me, it just my humble opinion )

 

[blacklab]

Extract beers can, and DO, win beer competitions.

I hear this thrown around all of the time, but have never seen any evidence to that fact.

I'm not sayin' you're lying, I'd just like to see when and where this happened. I have a hard time believing that a judge would not be able to suss out the extract beer.

 

[homebrewer_99]

I hear this thrown around all of the time, but have never seen any evidence to that fact.

I'm not sayin' you're lying, I'd just like to see when and where this happened. I have a hard time believing that a judge would not be able to suss out the extract beer.

Well, I am proof! I won Best of Style and Best of Show at the 1997 MUGZ Homebrew Competition in June 1997 (Rock Island, IL) with an ALL extract (DME) German-style Hefe Weizen. :rockin:

I beat out over 100 brews with it. First place prize: I got to brew 250 gals at the Blue Cat Pub in Rock Island.

It was my first (and last) competition.

To top it off, I broke all the brewing rules: my primary was 34 days long, I only boil 1.5 gals of water and was doing late addition boils before I knew it even had a name, and I use filtered tap water to top off my primary.

Even today I tweak rules and make great tasting beer with extract. Every once in a while I'll steep 1 lb of something...like in stouts, etc., but I'm still making great tasting extract brews after 14 years.

Plus, I've lived in Germany for 9 years and did a lot of research on brewing and techniques, talking with brewers, etc., so what I do works.

I don't do competitions. I didn't want to enter that one either. I don't have an inner need to justify my brews to anyone else except myself. I am, afterall, my worse critic and best friend...

 

[blacklab]

Finally some evidence! Congrats, glad to hear someone can make great extract beer. I couldn't.

 

[homebrewer_99]

Smalltown: Where do you live? I think you are in need of a brewing intervention with someone local to you.




Blacklab: Thanks. It surely didn't happen overnight. I had been brewing for almost 3 years at the time before I came closer to the technique I still use today.

 

[jds]

...
the IPA tasted like cough syrup, but the Dubbel wasn't bad. And now my last two (Fat Tire clone and Pale Ale), well the FT tastes like a heavy tea, and the pale ale is way too bitter. I sanitize everything with Iodophor, use Straight A cleanser to wash all equipment before and after brewing and transferring, the last 4 batches I've used a yeast starter, all batches I use liquid yeast, the last 4 batches I've used a wort chiller which can chill it to 80 degrees within 10 minutes. All batches sit in primary for 1 week, secondary for 2 weeks, and then in bottles for three.

Here's one of the things I think you can do. Age the IPA and the pale for a couple of months, then try again. Highly-hopped recipes can take a while to mature and let the hop character mellow.

I have a suggestion ... for the smaller beers, the Fat Tire and the pale ale type stuff, try just leaving it on the lees for a month.

I think this goes for just about every style. Sure, you can bottle soon after it's fermented down and the gravity isn't changing, but my extract beers improved a lot after I ignoted them in the fermenter for a while. Now, I try to leave even lighter OG beers on the yeast for 3-5 weeks.

Alright, so what do you guys think of this recipe, this is my latest batch of pale ale that I got a recipe from a local homebrew shop:

3.3 -lbs Coopers Light Malt Syrup
2.0 -lbs. Coopers Light dry malt extract
1 -lb Munich Malt 10L
1 -lb Great Western 2-Row pale malt
2 -oz Centennial Hops (boil 60 minutes)
1 -oz Cascade Hops (boil 15 minutes)
1 -oz Cascade Hops (boil 5 minutes)
1 -Teaspoon Irish Moss (boil 60 minutes)
¾ -cup corn sugar for bottling
White labs California Ale Yeast WLP001

original gravity 1.050
final gravity 1.014
alcohol content 4.7%

It wasn't until after I brewed it and put the recipe through Beersmith when I realized the IBU's were going to be sky high. I did anticipate a hoppy beer, but I guess you need more malt presence if you are going to drop 2 oz of Centennial Hops first thing.

Zoinks! Per Beersmith, that's 85 IBU in a 1.050 beer. That is blisteringly hoppy, and, IMO, has nowhere near enough malt to balance it. Your IBU/OG ratio is going to be about 1.6. That recipe will make a very unbalanced beer.

I think you're on the right path -- start isolating things in your process that you can improve. Want to build a mash tun? Go ahead. Even if you don't do anything else, you can use it to brew some partial mash recipes.

I think the potential downside of switching over to AG brewing for you is the possibility that you'll still have the process issues that are making you unhappy with your beer. The thing about AG brewing is that while you do have a lot more control over the process, it comes at the price of having to control that much more stuff in the course of a brew.

Also, based on the pale ale recipe you got from your LHBS, I'd suggest another source for recipes. The Recipe Database here at HBT has some good, well-tested recipes for both extract and AG brewers. The kits available from Austin Homebrew Supply also get a lot of praise.

 

[Hoosierbrewer]

Go to LD Carlson for the Brewers best kits and they give recipes. Hearts Homebrew in Orlando also gives their recipes online. AHS is good also.

 

[Brett0424]

I hear this thrown around all of the time, but have never seen any evidence to that fact.

I'm not sayin' you're lying, I'd just like to see when and where this happened. I have a hard time believing that a judge would not be able to suss out the extract beer.

The first place IPA in the BlueBonnet this year was extract and a well deserved winner.

 

[smalltown2001]

I am overwhelmed by the great advice and encouragement from everyone, I really appreciate it. I live in Portland, OR, and the first 4 brews I just used tap water for the wort, and pre-boiled tap water for topping it off. The last two brews I used pre-boiled carbon filtered tap water (brand new carbon filter), and just carbon filtered tap water for the wort. A few asked about my entire process of brewing, to help pinpoint what might be going wrong, so here it goes, sorry if it is long: Bought all ingredients for pale ale (see previous posts for recipe), canned malt extract, whole leaf hops, precrushed grain. 2 Days before brewing: Make a yeast starter with 1/3 cup DME and 2 cups water and liquid yeast, put it in glass jar at room temperature, shaking it occasionally to aerate. 1 Day before brewing: Boil 2-3 gallons of filtered tap water for 10-15 minutes, then put in clean containers and let cool for brew day. Brew Day: Clean all equipment with a quick wash in hot water and soap, rinse well, and sanitize by immersing in Iodophor solution for 10 minutes, and then letting it air dry on clean towel. (Side note: all equipment is cleaned immediately after use, so no equipment has dried-on grunge or anything). Fill 5 gallon pot with 2 gallons of filtered tap water, let it rise to 150 F (use digital thermometer), then steep specialty grains using a grain bag for 30 minutes, keeping temperature close to 150F. At 30 minutes, pull grain bag out, letting residual wort drip out without squeezing bag. Add 2 more gallons of water (to get a close to full wort boil) and turn heat to high until boiling. At boiling, remove from heat, add 1 cup of extract (using late extract addition method), and 60 minute hops in hop bag. Complete other hop additions at 15 minutes. With 10-15 minutes left, I add remainder extract, yeast nutrient Servomyces, and wort chiller to sanitize. At end of 60 minutes, take pot outside, hook up wort chiller to hose, and turn water on full blast, keeping top on the pot. Usually reach 75-80 degrees within 10-15 minutes. Add wort to glass carboy, fill to 5 gallon line with preboiled and filtered water, take gravity reading to see if it is on target, add yeast to wort, attach airlock, and then shake vigorously for 5 minutes to aerate yeast. Let sit with towel covering carboy at room temperature (60-75 degrees). I usually see activity by the next morning, and after 24 hours I see LOTS of activity, the wort is really churning. Typically it drops off after 5 days, and I take a gravity reading at 1 week, and then the next day to see if it has changed at all. If it hasn't, I transfer to secondary glass carboy, and let sit for 2 weeks in basement for cooler temperatures to let the yeast settle out to get clearer beer. After two weeks, I bottle the beer, boiling 3/4 cup priming sugar in 2 cups water. For bottles, I clean with Straight A cleanser to clean the labels, and use a bottle brush to clean the inside. Then after rinsing well, I load into dishwasher to let the high heat sanitize the bottles, and I don't open the dishwasher until when I am ready to bottle, which is after the bottles have cooled down and mostly dry. I rack beer into bottling bucket with priming sugar, stirring to get a good mixture, and then rack into bottles. Let bottles sit at room temperature for two weeks to carbonate, and then put in basement to keep the beer cool.

So there it is, let me know if you see anything out of the ordinary, or if I am missing some vital step in the process. Thanks again for the help, you guys have regained my confidence and hope of someday brewing a good brew.

Note: Original Gravity for the Pale ale was 1.052, and FG was 1.016. If anyone is interested.

 

[Tenchiro]

Overall your method is pretty sound, I don't see any one thing that would cause problems. I would avoid using soap though and just stick to the sanitizer, even properly rinsed some people say it will cause poor head retention. Also in your dishwasher do you let it run through a full cycle or just the heat portion to sanitize? When I bottle I just submerge already cleaned bottles in an Iodophor solution and let them drip dry on the bottle tree.

As for steeping your grains, I add mine to the cold water and then raise to 150ish and hold it for 30 min. Although your way isn't going to cause any problems really. Maybe try switching away from the canned malt extract to dry extract. I have had really good results using Munton's DME.

 

[Yooper]

Well, you technique looks sound. One thing that sticks out to me is why your beer was bitter (in a bad way). Remember that your hops utilization goes way up with late extract additions- and that one beer was loaded with hops. That would explain why that one is so bitter- you've probably got 80 IBUs in a 1.052 wort. (I didn't do the math, that's my guess) That one is explained by that!

As far as the others, though, I just don't know. I still think it's the cleanser, since everything else looks ok. Do you have enough bottles now so that you don't have to use that cleaner and remove the labels? Once I use a bottle, I rinse it well, and then put it away until I need it again. Then I just sanitize it. No soap touches the brewing gear or bottles, unless it's actually dirty.

 

[homebrewer_99]

I see one problems right off the bat.

Your water to grain/malt ratio is way off which caused it to be so bitter.

Since your grain was probably in a bag I would guess it's only 1/2 lb at most.

Change your technique a bit. Heat up only 1/2 gal of water and add your grain to it.

Heat up another 1/2 gal and rinse (sparge) the grain bag with it. You should end up with a gal or so of water. If not then top off to 1 to 1.5 gals. Add 1 lb of DME or LME, whichever is the lightest in color.

You can get a bitter brew at 4%AA's using about 6 - 6.5 lbs of malt in 5.25 gals so if you want it more bitter you can use more hops depending on the style you're brewing.

Boil for 45 mins, remove from heat and add remaining malts, steep for 15 mins.

If you are brewing a light colored beer and use Irish Moss I will reduce my boil time to 30 mins then add in the IM, boil for 15 mins then remove it from the heat.

If you are using filtered tap water there's no need to pre-boil it. Boiling removes the oxygen and you have to work at aerating the wort.

Just my $0.02.

 

[Finn]

Very true but with relatively small beers like you're brewing, these elements are "make your beer better" type of things, not "why does it totally undrinkable" things. Especially this time of year (temp control-wise). File them away for later use with bigger and more tricky beers after you solve the immediate problem, which I suspect is somehow related to contamination ... you are rinsing the Straight-A off, right?

Or maybe it is the recipe. Looking at your technique, it seems pretty solid. But only a hard-core hophead would enjoy the recipe you posted here. +1 on ditching your LHBS as a recipe source. In fact, I'd go straight to Jamil Zanisheff (his recipes are at www.beerdujour.com or just do a Google search for "Jamil Show Recipes". Speaking of the Jamil Show, go to http://thebrewingnetwork.com/jamil.php and check some out. They're really informative podcasts, one for each contest style. Jamil's Ordinary Bitter recipe is anything but ordinary and is a great place to start. I hear really good things about his robust-porter recipe, too.

Also, what the hell does "bitter" mean? Sour? Or excessively hoppy?

So you're a Stumptowner. Do you get out much? Joel at Corvallis Brewing Supply is a great resource and sells stuff pretty cheap too. He's on the main southbound Highway 99 drag through town, just south of the bridge that goes to I-5, and I've learned the hard way that he's open 11-6 Tues-Fri and on Saturdays (hours unknown) (NOT Sundays or Mondays, when I do most of my brewing!) Also, if you're ever coming this way, let me know! I've got a fully stocked kegerator now with 4 things on draft, at least one of which is drinkable, and would be delighted to share a pint with you.

Two things that haven't been mentioned yet are wort aeration and fermentation temperature control, both of which are critical to a heathly fermentation.

Aeration can be accomplished by adding top-off water from the tap (which typically has lots of oxygen already in it), vigorously shaking the fermenter, pouring the wort between buckets a few times, or using an O2 tank with an airstone (my preferred method).

Controlling fermentation temp is key. I use a chest freezer with an external controller to keep the temp of my fermenting ales between 62º and 68º, depending on the style. You can use a large bucket with water and ice bottles to achieve the same effect (search the forum for temp control and you'll get lots of ideas).

With fresh extract, good recipes, and health fermentation you should be able to make great beer with extract - lots of people do.

Tenchiro has some really good advice, but I disagree that pre-made kits should be avoided. I have used extract kits from 7-Bridges, Austin Homebrew, and MoreBeer with success.

 

[Tenchiro]

Tenchiro has some really good advice, but I disagree that pre-made kits should be avoided. I have used extract kits from 7-Bridges, Austin Homebrew, and MoreBeer with success.

I am sure there are decent kits out there, it is just when I think about them I imagine boxes of ingredients sitting on shelves, waiting to be sold. I may be mistaken, I mean they probably do assemble them per order. I just have that idea in my head so I always just order the ingredients I want separately.

 

[Beerthoven]

I am sure there are decent kits out there, it is just when I think about them I imagine boxes of ingredients sitting on shelves, waiting to be sold. I may be mistaken, I mean they probably do assemble them per order. I just have that idea in my head so I always just order the ingredients I want separately.

I hear ya. Kits can be hit or miss sometimes. I don't use kits much any more, but when I do I only get them from homebrew shops that make up their own and have high turnover. I'd never get a "factory made" kit, because, like you say, who knows how long they've been sitting around.

 

[Revvy]

I am sure there are decent kits out there, it is just when I think about them I imagine boxes of ingredients sitting on shelves, waiting to be sold. I may be mistaken, I mean they probably do assemble them per order. I just have that idea in my head so I always just order the ingredients I want separately.

It depends on where you're getting your kits from...If you're ordering online from a place like AHS or Northern Brewer they're pretty much made up right there for your order...Or if you go to a high turnover LHBS, you will get kits that a only a few weeks or a couple months old.

I shop at a high turnover store in Michigan, and although I don't brew kits anymore, the BB kits I did buy usually had close 2 years left on their "use by" dates, which means that they all proabably came in on orders shortly before I purchased them....

Which, for my store, is understandable because after they loaded the n00bies up with the equipment they needed, they walked them over to the kit aisle talked them into a kit rather than working them through a recipe.

You have an equal chance of your "Per order" ingredients having sat around on shelves somewhere...especially if you are using a grain that might not get a lot of requests for...I'm not talking 2-row, or Crystal 60, but if you are ordering victory, or special roast, that might not get a lot of turnover, and therefore might not be that fresh...

And don't forget, most of the distributors hold back some of their hops for kits, last winter if I wanted casacade from my LHBS, the only way I could get it was in a BB kit...their instore stock was gone.

 

[Finn]

Well, a beer kit is just a recipe that comes with the ingredients, so you just have to remember that it's only as good as the recipe. Personally, I like to put things together myself, which is really easy to do and not much more expensive -- sometimes cheaper -- than a kit. Plus, you can, after you figure out what a half-pound of Crystal 60 tastes like, add it to the recipe or pull it out. You can also use different yeasts to adjust your ester profiles and fermentation percentages. Flying your own wing, you'll come up with something unique that only you make. Which, really, isn't that why we brew?

Cheers!

--Finn

It depends on where you're getting your kits from...If you're ordering online from a place like AHS or Northern Brewer they're pretty much made up right there for your order...Or if you go to a high turnover LHBS, you will get kits that a only a few weeks or a couple months old.

I shop at a high turnover store in Michigan, and although I don't brew kits anymore, the BB kits I did buy usually had close 2 years left on their "use by" dates, which means that they all proabably came in on orders shortly before I purchased them....

Which, for my store, is understandable because after they loaded the n00bies up with the equipment they needed, they walked them over to the kit aisle talked them into a kit rather than working them through a recipe.

You have an equal chance of your "Per order" ingredients having sat around on shelves somewhere...especially if you are using a grain that might not get a lot of requests for...I'm not talking 2-row, or Crystal 60, but if you are ordering victory, or special roast, that might not get a lot of turnover, and therefore might not be that fresh...

And don't forget, most of the distributors hold back some of their hops for kits, last winter if I wanted casacade from my LHBS, the only way I could get it was in a BB kit...their instore stock was gone.

 

[njnear76]

+1 on the How to Brew.

I read this thing front and back several times before I even attempted homebrewing. The result: Good beer every time. I moved on to All Grain, but I still love all my extract beers. They all turned out great.

Water: If you use faucet water, make sure that you get rid of the chlorine by using Campden tablets. Don't use exclusively RO water. If you don't like the taste of your faucet water go with cheap Spring Water.

Temps: Keep your fermentation temperatures close to 60-65F.

Yeast: Use Nottingham Dry Yeast. It's a hardy and very neutral yeast that requires no starter. I like dry yeast so much that I have never used anything else. I have fermented down to 55F with Nottingham. How is that for hardy?

Aeration: Make sure that wort is aerated prior to pitching your yeast. I usually pour my wort back and forth between the pot and fermenter 10-20 times.

Ditch the Secondary (Clearing Tank): A lot of guys will jump on me for this, but whatever. I never used one and even the beer gods Jamil and Palmer rarely use one for their ales. Irish moss is a must though if you decide to go this route.

Mike

 

[Aleforge]

I had this very same issue when starting out. My first few batches always had a weird twang to them. I wrote it off as the mythical "extract" twang syndrome. But as soon as I stopped using my tap water and went with "spring" it was gone. I also second that you can indeed make very good extract batches. Going AG really only gives you more control over the process and the ablility to fine tune your recipe. If the extract is of good quality, and fresh it shouldn't degrade the beer.

+ 1 to the fact that many extract brewers have won competitions over their AG running mates.


Now that being off my chest I am also in the process of going all-grain this summer. I want the "hands-on" aspect from start to finish! But I never have regretted an extract I have made!

 

[DeathBrewer]

didn't read the whole thread, but caught a few points which might help (and may have already been mentioned)

1. Check your water
2. Leave your beers in the fermenter longer. i do AT THE VERY LEAST: 2 weeks primary, 2 weeks secondary, 6 weeks bottle. it REALLY makes a difference when you don't rush things. if you're impatiant, make a bunch of hefeweizens (3 weeks primary, straight to bottle for 3 weeks) to tide you over until you get a good stock going.
3. Use nottingham yeast for all your regular (non-belgian, non-wheat) beers until you have some great stuff under you belt. it'll give you a better idea of where your other "off" flavors are coming from.
4. Post your recipes on here for critiquing before brewing. you'll learn more on these forums faster than you will anywhere else.
5. Temperature control...i didn't catch where you are fermenting, but if it's over 70°F, it's too hot.

if you want to start partial mashing, you do not need any additional equipment. PM me and I will give you some methods and can also provide some simple, tried and true recipes. I can explain what ingredients impart what flavor and all that nonsense to give you a better understanding as well.

Cheers,
DB

 

[missing link]

Before going AG, try going to full boils with late extract addiditions. Get the Jamil book, it is written for extract brews, full boil. When doing a full boil you get much less darkening of the wort.

Linc