For any electricians out there

[InspectorJon]

There is a lot of vague and partly true information in this thread. Enough to make the subject at hand very confusing and lead to an improper installation. No offence intended but the OP clearly does not have a clear understanding of this subject. Yes, basic residential wiring is pretty simple but this is not the place to get that education and put it into practice. Call a licensed and qualified electrician. Full stop. Don't depend on the information above. Some is good, some not so much.

Houses built in 1973 (50 years ago) on the west coast of the USA should have three wire Romex (nonmetallic sheathed cable) style wiring, a hot, neutral and ground (for a 120 volt circuit). Houses built 50 years ago did not have fuse boxes, they had breaker panels. Knob and tube wiring was generally not installed after 1945. It is not a grounded system. There were commonly no grounding wires installed. Between that time and the mid 1960's cloth cove Romex with no ground wire was common. There were also no grounding wires commonly installed with this system. Some electricians began running a separate bare grounding wire in the 1960's based on what I have seen.

New GFCI's use newer technology and are far less likely to trip accidentally than they were in the past. That is why all the exceptions to where one must install them has been removed from the NEC and their use has been expanded. I would not be concerned to plug a refrigerator into one.

AFCI is another newer electrical safety technology that has improved and its use is being expended. Interesting subject but a bit of a red herring here.

Neutral and ground wires are bonded together in the main panel. They should not be bonded together anywhere else downstream from the main panel. Neutral wires carry current when there is a load on that circuit. Bonding neutral and grounding wires together downstream from the main panel has the potential of putting current on the grounding system. Unknowing or unethical technicians have been known to connect the grounding terminal on a three prong receptacle to a neutral wire in an old ungrounded system. This will fool any of the testers mentioned above into thinking the receptacle is properly grounded when it is not.

@redrocker652002 I could write a lot more here but I will simply repeat. Call an electrician, unless you want to make a serious study of this subject from reliable sources. There is some good info here but it is not all good. I am not an electrician but I have worked for a few and was a home inspector for over 30 years. I have studied this a lot and know more about this subject than a lot of electricians but less than others.

 

[shoengine]

Code here requires a dedicated AFGF branch for kitchen fridge installation just to help avoid inadvertently tripping a circuit with the fridge on it while using a vacuum in another area, for example.

Cheers!

That's a good point. I had to put in a couple combos in my kitchen when I remodeled. Went from two dedicated circuits and two shared circuits to seven dedicated circuits due to codes. And it's only around 150 sq. ft.

 

[mac_1103]

New GFCI's use newer technology and are far less likely to trip accidentally than they were in the past. That is why all the exceptions to where one must install them has been removed from the NEC and their use has been expanded. I would not be concerned to plug a refrigerator into one.

And yet the brand new one that was installed on the new dedicated circuit for my refrigerator tripped while I was on vacation and left me with a giant mess of spoiled food to clean up. I swapped it for a non GFCI outlet, since after all, the installation in question qualified for an exception in the previous version of the NEC. Guess I'll swap it back when I sell the house.

 

[InspectorJon]

And yet the brand new one that was installed on the new dedicated circuit for my refrigerator tripped while I was on vacation and left me with a giant mess of spoiled food to clean up

There is likely to be a reason the GFCI tripped. Might want to look into that. When I first started working as a carpenter my boss's old metal handle skill saw kept tripping the GFCI circuit breaker. GFCI was brand new then. He asked me if I could swap out that annoying circuit breaker for the regular old kind, which I was happy to do so I could show off my electrical skill. I was 19 and had spent some time working for my grandfather, an electrician. Later he complained because he kept getting an intermittent "tingle" when he went to use the saw, but it worked.

Famous last words - Huh, it never did that before...
Similar to - It has worked just fine that way for years...

 

[redrocker652002]

Thanks to all. The project has been put on hold until I can get somebody to come out and tell me what I have. My neighbor works for a Commercial Electrical Company, so I might see if somebody there wants to make some extra cash and just give me an idea of what I have. Funny thing, I did test some of the plugs around the house with a multimeter and found the kitchen plugs were grounded, the bathroom ones were also grounded. But when I checked the plugs in the eating area of the kitchen they seemed not to be. Also the plugs in the living room as well did not seem to be. I am wondering, is there a difference in plugs? In other words, are there replacement plugs that are grounded and some that are not? The reason I ask is that when I tested the plugs that seemed to be gounded, I felt like I was hitting some sort of metal in the ground terminal that did not seem to be there on the "ungrounded" ones I tested. All are three prong, so I am very confused. But, as stated, I know next to nothing about all this, and in this case, it is best to leave it to the pro's. I might go to Home Depot and see if they have that plug in tester just to make sure I am making good contact on all the terminals in the plug, but other than that, I aint fooling around with any of it. LOL

Thank you to all who responded. I appreciate any and all info. Rock On!!!!!!!!!

 

[redrocker652002]

There is a lot of vague and partly true information in this thread. Enough to make the subject at hand very confusing and lead to an improper installation. No offence intended but the OP clearly does not have a clear understanding of this subject. Yes, basic residential wiring is pretty simple but this is not the place to get that education and put it into practice. Call a licensed and qualified electrician. Full stop. Don't depend on the information above. Some is good, some not so much.

Houses built in 1973 (50 years ago) on the west coast of the USA should have three wire Romex (nonmetallic sheathed cable) style wiring, a hot, neutral and ground (for a 120 volt circuit). Houses built 50 years ago did not have fuse boxes, they had breaker panels. Knob and tube wiring was generally not installed after 1945. It is not a grounded system. There were commonly no grounding wires installed. Between that time and the mid 1960's cloth cove Romex with no ground wire was common. There were also no grounding wires commonly installed with this system. Some electricians began running a separate bare grounding wire in the 1960's based on what I have seen.

New GFCI's use newer technology and are far less likely to trip accidentally than they were in the past. That is why all the exceptions to where one must install them has been removed from the NEC and their use has been expanded. I would not be concerned to plug a refrigerator into one.

AFCI is another newer electrical safety technology that has improved and its use is being expended. Interesting subject but a bit of a red herring here.

Neutral and ground wires are bonded together in the main panel. They should not be bonded together anywhere else downstream from the main panel. Neutral wires carry current when there is a load on that circuit. Bonding neutral and grounding wires together downstream from the main panel has the potential of putting current on the grounding system. Unknowing or unethical technicians have been known to connect the grounding terminal on a three prong receptacle to a neutral wire in an old ungrounded system. This will fool any of the testers mentioned above into thinking the receptacle is properly grounded when it is not.

@redrocker652002 I could write a lot more here but I will simply repeat. Call an electrician, unless you want to make a serious study of this subject from reliable sources. There is some good info here but it is not all good. I am not an electrician but I have worked for a few and was a home inspector for over 30 years. I have studied this a lot and know more about this subject than a lot of electricians but less than others.

To your first part of the post that I bolded, I could have my dates and times messed up, but I can tell you the original setup was using screw in fuses at the panel. In the little amount of walls in the house I actually opened, I am pretty sure I found that the wiring was separate, with the black and white wires individually wrapped in a very thick insulation style sheathing. The panel has since been updated to breakers, and like I said, that was at least 25 years ago because that is how long I have been in the house. Not trying to be a jerk, just clarifying as I am not really sure what I am looking at and trying to get everybody a clear idea.

Not that I am planning on doing this, but if I was to install a GFCI plug into the box, would that be sufficient to keep the new freezer safe to use? Again, not going to do anything at this point until I find somebody who knows what they are doing and can tell me what I have, but I was just curious.

Thank you for the info, your post was very easy to understand even for a dummy like me.

Rock On!!!!!!!!!

 

[InspectorJon]

As stated, people have widely varying tolerances for risk.

Installing a GFCI receptacle to plug the freezer into would be much safer than plugging it into an ungrounded receptacle. Installing new, code compliant wiring would be the safest. There are also a whole lot of freezers out there plugged into old, ungrounded wiring, thousands if not millions of them. Getting injured from a freezer plugged into an ungrounded receptacle is extremely rare. Low risk tolerant people will say that is foolish of stupid to accept even that remote risk. I guess you have to decide where you fall on that risk tolerance spectrum.

 

[redrocker652002]

As stated, people have widely varying tolerances for risk.

Installing a GFCI receptacle to plug the freezer into would be much safer than plugging it into an ungrounded receptacle. Installing new, code compliant wiring would be the safest. There are also a whole lot of freezers out there plugged into old, ungrounded wiring, thousands if not millions of them. Getting injured from a freezer plugged into an ungrounded receptacle is extremely rare. Low risk tolerant people will say that is foolish of stupid to accept even that remote risk. I guess you have to decide where you fall on that risk tolerance spectrum.

Thank you. I think the smart move is to first see what I have and what can be done and at what cost. Thanks again for all the info.

 

[mac_1103]

There is likely to be a reason the GFCI tripped. Might want to look into that. When I first started working as a carpenter my boss's old metal handle skill saw kept tripping the GFCI circuit breaker. GFCI was brand new then. He asked me if I could swap out that annoying circuit breaker for the regular old kind, which I was happy to do so I could show off my electrical skill. I was 19 and had spent some time working for my grandfather, an electrician. Later he complained because he kept getting an intermittent "tingle" when he went to use the saw, but it worked.

Well happily no one is getting any tingles from touching my refrigerator.

I bought the house 25 years ago. The panel was upgraded to 200 amp service when the previous owner built an addition a few years prior to my purchase. The only things that were GFCI protected were two (out of three) outdoor receptacles, one (out of six) basement/garage receptacles, the hot tub and the remodeled master bath. This was not DIY work and the number of code violations and other mistakes was pretty remarkable. Yet it all passed inspection.

The older outdoor receptacle was protected by a GFCI breaker that tripped all the time until I replaced the receptacle with a weather resistant one. I've since added GFCI outlets in the kitchen and all of the other bathrooms. Also added new dedicated circuits for the refrigerator and the microwave, and split a 15 amp circuit serving the countertop into two 15 amp circuits to prevent overloading with small appliances. I think that being 2017 NEC compliant is a pretty big improvement over (not) being 1993 NEC compliant, and I've decided to accept the "risk" of having my fridge on an non-GFCI circuit.

Funny thing, I did test some of the plugs around the house with a multimeter and found the kitchen plugs were grounded, the bathroom ones were also grounded. But when I checked the plugs in the eating area of the kitchen they seemed not to be. Also the plugs in the living room as well did not seem to be. I am wondering, is there a difference in plugs? In other words, are there replacement plugs that are grounded and some that are not?

Could be that different parts of your house were wired at different times. You'll find out when you get the whole thing checked out.

 

[Deadalus]

So this is what knob and tube looks like.

 

[mac_1103]

So this is what knob and tube looks like.

My Dad's house (built in 1900) was full of that. And gas pipes for lighting fixtures in every room. All long since abandoned of course.

 

[Deadalus]

It sounds like the OP may have some of the cloth cove wiring in places. I had that in my mid 1940's house throughout, just about all gone. I replaced mine branch by branch as I remodeled rooms. Different parts of the house, as mentioned, may have different types of wiring. Additions are usually permitted and you can often get that information from town hall. My house has four listed additions but a bathroom that I have surmised was added shortly after building did not show up. I am not sure if that was because of the time period. Judging from the work done, the plumber was a hack or paid very cheaply. Anyway, if you know when renovations occurred, it can help to understand what type of wiring may be in place. Old houses with fuses had sparse wiring in general as well as there weren't so many electrical draws in the past either. When the service is updated to breakers, then sometimes new outlets and lighting are added. I'm not sure if the OP is saying they had the breaker box installed or if it was already there 25 years ago.

Maybe the wiring in the attic was attached to a lightening rod? I've never seen one up close.

 

[Deadalus]

My Dad's house (built in 1900) was full of that. And gas pipes for lighting fixtures in every room. All long since abandoned of course.

I've seen it a few times, once operational but that was about 25 years ago. Other places were where the knobs were left in place. It's pretty distinctive.

 

[shoengine]

It sounds like the OP may have some of the cloth cove wiring in places. I had that in my mid 1940's house throughout, just about all gone. I replaced mine branch by branch as I remodeled rooms. Different parts of the house, as mentioned, may have different types of wiring. Additions are usually permitted and you can often get that information from town hall. My house has four listed additions but a bathroom that I have surmised was added shortly after building did not show up. I am not sure if that was because of the time period. Judging from the work done, the plumber was a hack or paid very cheaply. Anyway, if you know when renovations occurred, it can help to understand what type of wiring may be in place. Old houses with fuses had sparse wiring in general as well as there weren't so many electrical draws in the past either. When the service is updated to breakers, then sometimes new outlets and lighting are added. I'm not sure if the OP is saying they had the breaker box installed or if it was already there 25 years ago.

Maybe the wiring in the attic was attached to a lightening rod? I've never seen one up close.

I did the same. Probably only one or two branches left with paper. Lots of yellow romex everywhere now.

 

[redrocker652002]

So this is what knob and tube looks like.
View attachment 818499

Yes, I am familiar with what it looks like. I believe that is what I have throughout the house, with exception of where remodeling was done when I moved in. Kitchen mostly. Either way, I am scrapping the idea until I can get somebody out there to either run a dedicated line for any appliance I might have, or kick the kids out so I have more freezer room. LOL

 

[redrocker652002]

It sounds like the OP may have some of the cloth cove wiring in places. I had that in my mid 1940's house throughout, just about all gone. I replaced mine branch by branch as I remodeled rooms. Different parts of the house, as mentioned, may have different types of wiring. Additions are usually permitted and you can often get that information from town hall. My house has four listed additions but a bathroom that I have surmised was added shortly after building did not show up. I am not sure if that was because of the time period. Judging from the work done, the plumber was a hack or paid very cheaply. Anyway, if you know when renovations occurred, it can help to understand what type of wiring may be in place. Old houses with fuses had sparse wiring in general as well as there weren't so many electrical draws in the past either. When the service is updated to breakers, then sometimes new outlets and lighting are added. I'm not sure if the OP is saying they had the breaker box installed or if it was already there 25 years ago.

Maybe the wiring in the attic was attached to a lightening rod? I've never seen one up close.

I think you hit it right. It is like a cloth weave covering the wires. My wife's uncle, who was a firefighter and contractor replaced all the kitchen wire with Romex and GFCI plugs, and those appear to be grounded. Not having opened any of the faceplates on the plugs in years, I seem to remember there were white and black wires in each of the boxes. I replaced most of the plugs but I cannot remember if I ran any kind of ground from the plug to the metal box on the stud. Either way, I am going to get one of those plug in testers and run thru the house. I am also going to see if a buddy who lives out of town but visit's on occasion will look at it. He is an electrician who does mostly commercial but I am sure he might be able to at least look at what I have and give me an idea of what i need to do.

Thanks to all who replied

 

[Deadalus]

I think you hit it right. It is like a cloth weave covering the wires. My wife's uncle, who was a firefighter and contractor replaced all the kitchen wire with Romex and GFCI plugs, and those appear to be grounded. Not having opened any of the faceplates on the plugs in years, I seem to remember there were white and black wires in each of the boxes. I replaced most of the plugs but I cannot remember if I ran any kind of ground from the plug to the metal box on the stud. Either way, I am going to get one of those plug in testers and run thru the house. I am also going to see if a buddy who lives out of town but visit's on occasion will look at it. He is an electrician who does mostly commercial but I am sure he might be able to at least look at what I have and give me an idea of what i need to do.

Thanks to all who replied

Sorry I was a little late to the thread, but I will add that if you can see around your circuit breaker box (unfinished space), you can get an idea of what might by grounded or not by the wires coming out of the breaker panel itself. Newer wires would have printing on them, mine are all yellow 12/2 W/G. That's a better way to know what you have as an installer may have picked up power at a junction box and run newer lines without properly designating it. Not a complete tell either as they may have only run the new line to a junction box and left the old wiring. Now you wouldn't know exactly which breaker feeds which branch wire exiting the panel without taking the cover off (never assume!) but only take the panel cover off if you know how to do so SAFELY!

 

[mac_1103]

Yes, I am familiar with what it looks like. I believe that is what I have throughout the house, with exception of where remodeling was done when I moved in.

If you have knob and tube wiring your house is a lot more than fifty years old.

 

[redrocker652002]

Thanks to all. Gonna just let this thread run it's course. The bottom line is that I don't know exactly, but am pretty sure the wrapped wire that an earlier poster stated is what I have. Either way, I am not touching anything until I can get somebody over to tell me what I have. Also, I might get a few estimates on how to upgrade the wiring and make it safer than it is now, and maybe add a few plugs throughout the house. Seems when they built it, plugs were a miimum. Like one to two a room if lucky. LOL. Either way, thanks to all who posted. I appreciate all the info. Rock On!!!!!!!

 

[redrocker652002]

I completely forgot I started this thread. LOL. As an update we decided not to add a freezer to the garage as I was just not comfortable with doing that given the current wiring. That, and now my kids are moving out so space in the freezer has become a bit more manageable. I might, in the future, get an electrician to rewire the whole house and add a few plugs. Older houses just don't have enough for current day needs. But as that costs money and I would basically have to rip most of the sheetrock out and rehang it, at 60 years old my body is telling me those things are a bit of a stretch now. LOL. So, for now, I continue with the wiring that was put in during the 50's when the house was built minus the kitchen that was upgraded about 20 years ago when I moved in and redid the cabinets and all.

Thanks to all who replied, and if you are in the San Francisco area and are an electrician, give me a quote, who knows. LOL.