flavor of tannins/sparge question

[zodiak3000]

i have started to notice an astringent flavor in the past batches, i suspect tannins. i batch sparge and i need to heat to about 185 to get the grain bed to 168-170. i know this seems right, but im worried the initial impact of the 185 water hitting grains is extracting some tannins. is this possible? i was planning on sparging with 170 water next time just to see if there is a difference (which would leave me with about 155 grain bed temp). any side effect to this?

 

[zodiak3000]

bump

 

[dmashl]

I mash at 152-154, then batch sparge with 170 stir it in and let sit for a few minutes, then drain.

 

[zodiak3000]

I mash at 152-154, then batch sparge with 170 stir it in and let sit for a few minutes, then drain.

is your sparge water or grain bed 170?

 

[two_one_seven]

If you suspect tannins take a mouth full of the beer and use your tongue to "rub" it agains the roof of your mouth. If you your tongue feels rough then tannins are the culprit. I bring my sparge water up the 180 range and I don't seem to have that issue. I think the contact time at the higher temp is really minimal.

 

[Yooper]

Even if your temperature was too high (but it's not!) tannins are extracted only when the pH is too high during sparging. If it was just temperature related, none of us would be able to do decoctions where we actually boil the grain.

I suspect that your water is alkaline and is causing tannin extraction. Has your water changed?

You can sparge with cold water if you want to- it doesn't matter. Kai Troester showed the results of his experiments on his website braukaiser.com with the efficiency results with a cold water batch sparge vs a warmer "proper" temperature sparge with no differences in efficiency, or at least a negligible amount.

 

[zodiak3000]

Even if your temperature was too high (but it's not!) tannins are extracted only when the pH is too high during sparging. If it was just temperature related, none of us would be able to do decoctions where we actually boil the grain.

I suspect that your water is alkaline and is causing tannin extraction. Has your water changed?

You can sparge with cold water if you want to- it doesn't matter. Kai Troester showed the results of his experiments on his website braukaiser.com with the efficiency results with a cold water batch sparge vs a warmer "proper" temperature sparge with no differences in efficiency, or at least a negligible amount.

just looked it up, not sure ill ever try it but thats awesome. water (tap) has changed since i moved, but this has happened in the last 2 batches at the old house as well. house water is very drinkable at both places. i treat each 5 gallon batch with a quarter tab of campden to kill any chlorine (crushed and split into strike and sparge water). the flavor im getting seems like tannins- astringent, bitter (not hoppy bitter), like a dry red wine finish on the palate.

 

[Yooper]

just looked it up, not sure ill ever try it but thats awesome. water (tap) has changed since i moved, but this has happened in the last 2 batches at the old house as well. house water is very drinkable at both places. i treat each 5 gallon batch with a quarter tab of campden to kill any chlorine (crushed and split into strike and sparge water). the flavor im getting seems like tannins- astringent, bitter (not hoppy bitter), like a dry red wine finish on the palate.

That sounds like a high mash pH to me, but it's hard to say for sure. Is this in all the beers, or only the lighter colored ones?

 

[zodiak3000]

That sounds like a high mash pH to me, but it's hard to say for sure. Is this in all the beers, or only the lighter colored ones?

seems like all my pales/ipas.

 

[duboman]

As Yooper stated it has to do with both a high pH ad too hot of sparge water-combined

You need to determine your waters initial pH and then what it is at mash. The grist will naturally lower the pH but not necessarily to a desired level and the mash still may require adjustments to bring the pH to acceptable levels.

This becomes a bigger concern as your beers become lighter in color.

 

[Yooper]

As Yooper stated it has to do with both a high pH ad too hot of sparge water-combined

You need to determine your waters initial pH and then what it is at mash. The grist will naturally lower the pH but not necessarily to a desired level and the mash still may require adjustments to bring the pH to acceptable levels.

This becomes a bigger concern as your beers become lighter in color.

Normally, though, batch sparging isn't so much pH related. I think it's actually mash pH that is causing these flavors, and not the sparge pH/temperature.

If your pales/IPAs, which are all lighter than amber, are coming in like that it really points to water chemistry.

I'd try buying RO water from a "water machine" at the store and using 100% RO water in a batch to see if that fixes it. Or, get a water report from Ward Lab for $26.50ish and know for sure what you're dealing with. It's generally easy to fix all but the worst water if you know where you're starting.

 

[duboman]

Normally, though, batch sparging isn't so much pH related. I think it's actually mash pH that is causing these flavors, and not the sparge pH/temperature.

If your pales/IPAs, which are all lighter than amber, are coming in like that it really points to water chemistry.

I'd try buying RO water from a "water machine" at the store and using 100% RO water in a batch to see if that fixes it. Or, get a water report from Ward Lab for $26.50ish and know for sure what you're dealing with. It's generally easy to fix all but the worst water if you know where you're starting.

Thanks for the better explanation,

As a side note, ward labs prices have gone up quite a bit, I believe the full beer testing profile now is close to $40!

 

[Yooper]

Thanks for the better explanation,

As a side note, ward labs prices have gone up quite a bit, I believe the full beer testing profile now is close to $40!

Yeah- but you don't need the "beer" test. You just need the household mineral test, which is about $26.50 or so.

 

[duboman]

Yeah- but you don't need the "beer" test. You just need the household mineral test, which is about $26.50 or so.

Now ya tell me.....

 

[zodiak3000]

thanks yooper, ill give RO water a shot on my next batch

 

[zodiak3000]

FYI i just got a water report online. what exactly am i looking for that i could possibly change? i understand water ph is different than the actual mash ph.

Alkalinity as CaCO3 (ppm) 110
Calcium (ppm) 21
Magnesium (ppm) 15
pH 8.0
Radon (pCi/L) 198
Silica (ppm) 83
Sodium (ppm) 27
Total Hardness as CaCO3 (ppm) 111