'Flash Brewing'? This looks interesting!

[13brv3]

I mixed up a Citra Sessions batch yesterday. It seems really wrong to just leave everything clumped together, but I did it anyway. The airlock was bubbling in just a few hours, and working overtime not long after that.

One thing I never expected is just how fragrant this was during the main fermentation. For an all grain batch, even in full bubble mode, you can barely smell it. For this batch, the whole house had a strong smell from the airlock. It's not an unpleasant smell to me, but my wife complained about it. I guess I won't let her drink any

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Over the last couple of years, I've mentioned that there are a number of ideas in chapter 1 of How To Brew 4e that "poka-yoke" (error proof) the brewing process for new brewers.

I currently have the impression that MoreBeer (in combination with ingredient selection that was not available in 2017 to JP) has moved the "poka-yoke"dial to 11.

It seems really wrong to just leave everything clumped together,

In BeerSmith podcast #309, Chris Graham mentioned stirring as one of a number of points of infection for new brewers.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

It seems odd that MoreBeer could have batches of a custom wort created for each recipe then have it dried and still sell it for a reasonable price. Maybe they plan to do enough volume to make this work though.

Based on the interview with Brad Smith, it does sound like they are having custom wort made and dried...or at least there is additional boiling that occurs to create a hot break. He says they tried it with just standard DME with poor results (but not much info on those results). Part of the $50 cost of the kits seems to be the more expensive DME used.

Also, Chris said they were thinking about 1 gallon and 2.5 gallon versions.

 

[loganklaas]

Anybody giving the Irish Red a try? I notice that MoreBeer has put out a few new options, but still in the pale colored and hoppy category (IPA, and Pale Ale).

I “brewed” the Irish Red Ale MoreBeer Flash Kit. It came out more of an amber color and is light in body, but it has good flavor. I wouldn’t be opposed to making it again. I have the German Hefeweizen Flash Kit to make when I have some more keg space.

 

[Snuffy]

Maybe, just maybe, HomeBrewTalk could defer "trash talking" products intended for new brewers until 12 or 18 months after their release.
And then (after 12 to 18 months) offer constructive comments that moves the hobby forward.

That, sir, may be the most diplomatic and well-deserved STFU I have ever received. I stand corrected. My sincere hope is that entry level brewing products are successful and inspire new brewers to the game. Brew on.

 

[fluketamer]

@Snuffy: NB, back in the 2017 - 2018 NB (under ZX Ventues owership) timeframe tried that. At the time, Muntons offered "hopped" DME products (maybe Muntons still makes these products, but I haven't seen these products in USA based online stores for a while).

In that time frame (2017), HomeBrewTalk was still deeply into "extract is always darker than expected" as well as "extract twang /1/" - when in reality, the problem was mostly stale LME. The combination of Basic Brewing Radio episodes (late 2005) and some classic BYO / Chris Colby (2014-ish) made it obvious how to detect stale product. So at that time, there was at least a 3 to 5 year lag between 'best practices' and 'often repeated forum wisdom' when brewing with "extract". I suspect the lag, in 2024, is still around 3 years.

• /1/ back in 2017, the definition of "extract twang" was that "twang" one gets with brewing with 'extract'. Not exactly helpful. OTOH, the BBR episodes in 2005 were helpful with specific off flavors - and, in the end, ended up being related to stale LME.

So "forum wisdom" tends to lag the "leading edge" of ingredients and processes.

Which is "ok" if one is getting the beer that one wants to drink.

But "not so OK" if a business (or perhaps an association) wants to move the hoby forward.

---

About a year ago, there was topic here at HomeBrewTalk that speculated as to where Williams and MoreBeer where getting their LME products that offered comparative advantages over the traditional "pilsen", "golden light", "pale ale", "amber", "traditional dark" products that many online stores offer.

MoreBeer is being quiet (rightfully so) with regard to the specifics of the ingredients in their "Flash Brewing" kits.

For a new brewer, if the "Flash brewing" kits, brewed to the instructions they offer, makes an enjoyable beer, it seems like a "win/win" for the brewer and MoreBeer.

---

It appears that the hard part with "new brewer" products is reaching the "new brewers" (e.g comments by the guest in BeersSmith podcast #309).

Maybe, just maybe, HomeBrewTalk could defer "trash talking" products intended for new brewers until 12 or 18 months after their release.

And then (after 12 to 18 months) offer constructive comments that moves the hobby forward.

not DME but muntons hopped lme is available online

https://craftedseries.com/collections/malt-extract/products/hopped-light-malt-extract-1-5-kg-3-3-lb

i think its the first time i have seen hopped lme in the usa except maytbe 35 years ago. like you said i dont remmebr seeing muntrons hopped dme except in the UK.

im pretty sure muntons lists the expected ibus when diluted.


its an interesting product imo .

 

[bwible]

There used to be a company that sold super-concentrated beer and a kit for rehydrating and carbonating it. It was geared towards backpackers. Unfortunately, it seems they're no longer around.

https://gearjunkie.com/camping/pats-backcountry-beer-review

When I had my store from 2000-2004 there were some liquid bag in a box no boil beer kits from a brand called Baron’s. They were 6 gallon kits designed to be made the same way as the boxed 6 gallon wine kits using the same equipment. If anybody has done one of those.

I found this old thread:
https://www.winemakingtalk.com/threads/barons-premium-beer-kits.18728/

About 2 gallons of concentrate in the bag/box. Dump, add 4 gallons of water, stir, add yeast. They weren’t very popular. Didn’t sell very many. I got them from LD Carlson at the time who also sold Brew King, now Wine Expert boxed wine kits. I had a couple left after I closed my store. I never made one according to the actual directions. I ended up not adding all the water and using it to make barleywine because even I didn’t like the idea at the time.

The wine kits actually made decent wine, but I always used liquid yeast whenever I made one. I haven’t made any of the wine kits for a long time because (30) 750ml bottles is alot to have of one kind of wine.

edit - here’s what the box looked like

 

[BrewZer]

Not Flash Brewing but...I have been treating my brewing water with OxBlox 3D ("blend of gallotannins, ascorbic acid, and metabisulphite"). The recommended dosage rate is 0.2 to 0.4 g per gallon. In theory, it might reduce hot size oxidation, but at a minimum it should remove the chlorine and chloramines from my tap water. When I used it at the 0.2 g rate for a batch of hop water (not boiled or heated, just dry hopped at room temp) it ended up with a strong "campden tablet" tasted. I ended up dumping that batch. I have been using it at a much lower dose in hop water since (I don't have notes with me on the dosage).

Bottled water is an option (though lugging home 5 gallons of water might offset the ease of a "easy 10 minute brew"). For tap water that is not boiled, I wonder if just using a low dosage of metabisulfite would work (maybe the 1 tablet per 20 gals dosage). Ascorbic Acid is also supposed to remove chlorine and chloramine. I am not sure what dosage is needed, but I have read that very little Ascorbic Acid is needed.

I will add the podcast to my queue.

MoreBeer specifically recommends using RO, distilled or bottled spring water.

Seems like they know tap water with sulfite will get metallic.

 

[BrewZer]

I “brewed” the Irish Red Ale MoreBeer Flash Kit. It came out more of an amber color and is light in body, but it has good flavor. I wouldn’t be opposed to making it again. I have the German Hefeweizen Flash Kit to make when I have some more keg space.
View attachment 858003

You'll like the hefe.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

The commonly repeated "If you tap water tastes good ..." is occasionally attributed to Papazian. From "Complete Joy ..." on p 49 (4ed, ebook):

Even back then, it looks like there is more to be aware of with regard to tap water than just "taste the water". And note that a household filter would likely remove the need for any additional water treatment on brew day.

I'm with the interviewer in being skeptical.

Brad has guests that I enjoy listening to - and I tend to pay more attention to the guest than the host. IMO, in this segment, the guest didn't provide enough information to speculate over the actual cause (and then refine the 'kit hack' to avoid the problems with the original 'kit hack').

With regard to kit hacks, blindly brewing with tap water probably works most of the time. OTOH, "lugging" some RO water enables the new home brewer to brew the kit as designed - and removes chance for off flavors due to unknown things in tap water.

I'll report back, though.

Looking forward to hearing how your beer comes out!

 

[mac_1103]

And note that a household filter would likely remove the need for any additional water treatment on brew day.

Were chloramines even a thing when Charlie wrote that?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Were chloramines even a thing when Charlie wrote that?

Don't know (and don't care) as I "lug" around 'no mineral' water.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Seems like they know tap water with sulfite will get metallic.

From the research I could find, Ascorbic Acid can be used to remove typical amounts of Chlorine and Chloramine at a dosage rate of only 10mg per gallon (that is 0.01g). While my jewelers' scale has a resolution of 0.01g, in reality it does not measure anything below 0.1g. In the future, I will likely start using a pinch of Ascorbic Acid for my hop water, and it should be a good solution for those wanting to use tap water for Flash Brewing. Note, Ascorbic Acid is a very mild acid and should not impact pH at such a low rate.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Weighing small amounts (things learned when brewing 1 gal batches around 2017-2018):

A jewelry scale with .001 gram accuracy are about $15. My experience with them (I have one in the "brew day" equipment box and on in the "packaging day" equipment box).

A set (or two) of tiny measuring spoons (get the set that includes the 1/64 or 'dash') tsp) are about $5/set. I occasionally miss not having a set in each equipment box.

Finally, Mini-cup cake liners work well as a measuring dish (and also are useful for measuring / cross checking the accuracy of the scales).

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

With regard to Flash Yeast, over in the Has anyone dry hopped at yeast pitch? topic, there is mention of emerging thermotolerant strains (link).

 

[mashdar]

So my mountain ale flash brew experiment has produced beer.

Prior to my thoughts, a few caveats:

1. As stated above, I used tap water, which goes against MoreBeer's recommend practice.
2. I fermented for a week in a keg at 72F, spunding to a target 2.5vol after 2 days. I put it in the serving fridge after 7 days, and tasted it a week later. Serving from fermenter. Obviously not standard practice.
3. Based on the above, YMMV. This is an anecdote.
4. I do not like modern takes on IPA. I drink malty beer when I can. But Sierra Nevada pale is a reliable drink, so I figured this was the clone kit for me.
5. I've never brewed with cryo hops before.

Tasting notes:

• Appearance: Straw-gold, good head, good lacing. Very cloudy, especially considering a week in the fridge and floating dip tube. Cloudiest non-cloudy style I've ever made. I don't care much but FYI.
• Aroma: Citrus-y. More orange juice and less hop than I expect from cascade. Almost like citra. Do cryo hops smell weird?
• Flavor: One dimensional. My mind goes to a comparison of fluorescent light spectra vs sunlight. Parts of hop and malt flavor seem MIA. The malt is probably lack of fresh grain. The hops have the bad orange juice character I dislike in modern IPAs. Blame the cryo hops? Why does it not taste like hops?
• Mouthfeel: Fine. Slightly mineral. Probably my tap water.
• Overall: All that said, and while this is not my cup of tea, it's definitely beer and is probably more marketable/on-trend than my usual fare. If you like what is called "IPA" these days, this might be great for you.

I probably should have tried the hefeweizen, but I wanted to give the flash yeast a spin.

Re the sulfite, I am reading "Water" by Palmer and Kaminski, and they mentioned that high Na with high sulfate can be perceived as metallic. I wonder if the person complaining used a sodium-sulfite salt and had high SO4 water (or converted during fermentation). I couldn't detect my ~30ppm sulfite addition.

Edit: I've been thinking about it, and I'm assuming what I don't like here is the cryo hops. The character I really dislike is in a lot of commercial beer, so i don't think it's the no-boil process at work. I may try a non-cryo-hop kit later.

Update: After three weeks in the refrigerator (2 weeks serving), the beer has cleared a bit and flavor has improved. It's still a little hazy. The hop flavor is still strange, but has mellowed a little. I wonder if additional contact time with hop matter has helped add some normal hop character.

 

[dallasd9]

Why do you think these kits would be more likely to make murky beer? Serious question. Seems to me that the hot break and cold break are gone before they spray dry the malt. Where is the murk coming from?

I kegged my first Citrus Session Pale Ale (More Beer Flash Brew) three days ago. I added gelatin after the cold crash (34F) and today it was still very hazy. I'll give it another week.

 

[BrewZer]

I probably should have tried the hefeweizen, but I wanted to give the flash yeast a spin.

Without stirring up the yeast, the hefeweizen comes out almost kristall.

 

[IrondaleBrewing]

I finally got around to doing a tasting video for the Citra Session Pale Ale and the I Heart IPA kits:


tl;dw: Both are pretty darn good, with the Citra being a bit more successful in my opinion.

The Citra I treated very kindly, with temperature control, cold crashing, and closed transfers throughout. The I Heart IPA I just left in my brewing space with my mini-split set to 68F auto, and at this time of year that means it's flipping between heating and cooling so it would avoid any extremes but would not be particularly stable. I left the fermenter exposed to light the whole time and it didn't smell or taste skunked at all.

Taking a suggestion someone made in a previous part of this thread, I did throw an iSpindel in the I Heart IPA to track what the temperature did inside the fermenter:

And the gravity readings, as you'd expect, made no sense:

For the amount of work I was pretty impressed with both these beers and am curious to try the others. I do like the idea of having these kits around to throw one in a fermenter during a full brew day to get a two-for-one or just as a quick way to get more beer in the pipeline, particularly since even without temperature control they seem to do just fine.

I can also see myself using these as a base to test additions to certain styles of beer, especially if they start making smaller batches available. I currently do extract batches on occasion to serve this purpose but this would of course be way less effort.

Is it the best beer I've had? No, but I've had -- and made -- worse beers than these for sure. I think it's a pretty cool addition to the toolbox.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

@IrondaleBrewing : thanks for the temperature chart and the tasting notes.

---

I'm a little slow getting started with these kits as my basement stays on the cool side (65F at the moment, 57F by February) of the "flash yeast" range - and I was looking for some evidence that 65F (ambient) was reasonable with these kits. I will have time to brew a couple of batches before the basement temperature moves deeper into "uncharted" territory (62F and below).

I did order the "Irish Red" kit & a 3 gal fermonster with spigot - so I'll try splitting the kit into two. One batch will be the Irish Red. At the moment, the other batch is tentatively an American Amber Ale.

aside: as I was typing this, it occurred to me that rather than doing 2.5 gal batches (with a blow-off tube) in the 3.0 gal fermonster, I could do 2.0 gal batches and skip the blow-off tube. So for the Irish Red, I'd use 40% of the ingredients. For the other 60% of ingredients, some assumptions (DME is OG 44, ...) and speculative math hint that a 2.0 gal batch may be in the "double red" (malty) or "red IPA" (hoppy) range.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

rather than doing 2.5 gal batches (with a blow-off tube) in the 3.0 gal fermonster

If you are worried about batch size, these fermenters max out at 3.2 or 3.3 gallons. 3.0 gallons fills them up to about the "ring" on the shoulder. I commonly target 2.7 gallons of wort and seldom does the krausen cause any issues.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

If you are worried about batch size, these fermenters max out at 3.2 or 3.3 gallons. 3.0 gallons fills them up to about the "ring" on the shoulder. I commonly target 2.7 gallons of wort and seldom does the krausen cause any issues.

Back in #229 (thanks @IrondaleBrewing for the chart), the temperature spike brought back memories of brewing DME with Windsor yeast at 70F (blow off tube or "clean up crew").

So it's good to know that there's extra space in the fermonster.

---

The "aha" moment in #230 is that 2.5 gal-ish "kit hacks" may not need to split the ingredients 50/50.

My MoreBeer order will be fulfilled from both of their warehouses - and are estimated to arrive Wed/Thurs next week. I hope to brew the 1st batch on Sat/Sun - but will definitely throw the yeast in the fridge and the hops in the freezer when they arrive.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

My KS order was 'picked' early Friday. FedEx got the order to me by noon on Sunday. So today was equipment cleaning day and a quick brew day.

Rather than an Irish Red, I switched hops to make an American Amber (inspired by the American Amber Ales in Brewing Classic Styles).

This was a 2.25 gal batch in the 3.0 gal (spigotted) fermonster.

3# DME, half the "HopBite" (4ML), half the yeast (6 g) and 14 g each of normal Cascade & Centennial. 2.25 gal of water bumps the ABV from around 5.2% to around 5.8%.

I started with 1 gal of water, added the yeast, hops, and DME, then added the remaining 1.25 gal of water. After adding the remaining water, it looked like there was about 1.5" of DME floating on top - which may be a problem if trying to squeeze 2.75 gal batches into the 3.0 gal fermenter.

The "HopBite" product was easy to split. It flowed well and the syringe plunger wasn't sticky.

Basement temperature is 65F (and it's going to be cool outside this week). I don't have a tilt or iSpindel, but I may have time to capture a couple of wort temperatures over the next day or two.

---

With the other half of the DME & HopBite, I may do a "hop sampler"-ish batch (perhaps including a short boil to gather some insights (PPG? approximate SRM?, ...) into the DME). I'd add the HopBite going after the wort has cooled. Not sure if I'll use the "flash yeast" with the "hop sampler"-ish idea or save it for a different recipe.

 

[dallasd9]

My KS order was 'picked' early Friday. FedEx got the order to me by noon on Sunday. So today was equipment cleaning day and a quick brew day.

Rather than an Irish Red, I switched hops to make an American Amber (inspired by the American Amber Ales in Brewing Classic Styles).

This was a 2.25 gal batch in the 3.0 gal (spigotted) fermonster.

3# DME, half the "HopBite" (4ML), half the yeast (6 g) and 14 g each of normal Cascade & Centennial. 2.25 gal of water bumps the ABV from around 5.2% to around 5.8%.

I started with 1 gal of water, added the yeast, hops, and DME, then added the remaining 1.25 gal of water. After adding the remaining water, it looked like there was about 1.5" of DME floating on top - which may be a problem if trying to squeeze 2.75 gal batches into the 3.0 gal fermenter.

The "HopBite" product was easy to split. It flowed well and the syringe plunger wasn't sticky.

Basement temperature is 65F (and it's going to be cool outside this week). I don't have a tilt or iSpindel, but I may have time to capture a couple of wort temperatures over the next day or two.

---

With the other half of the DME & HopBite, I may do a "hop sampler"-ish batch (perhaps including a short boil to gather some insights (PPG? approximate SRM?, ...) into the DME). I'd add the HopBite going after the wort has cooled. Not sure if I'll use the "flash yeast" with the "hop sampler"-ish idea or save it for a different recipe.

Sounds like a solid plan. Please keep us posted.

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

My KS order was 'picked' early Friday. FedEx got the order to me by noon on Sunday. So today was equipment cleaning day and a quick brew day.

I'm pretty sure you're very familiar with briess dme, would you presume that it was just repackaged "sparkling amber dme"?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I'm pretty sure you're very familiar with briess dme, would you presume that it was just repackaged "sparkling amber dme"?

At the moment, and without going into details, I'm open minded as to who might be making the "Flash Brewing" DMEs for MoreBeer.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

As a follow-up to #236, BeerSmith Podcast #309 starting at about 13:00 (for about 90 seconds) provides enough background on the Flash Brewing DME so one could assume that the Irish Red is not repackaged Briess Sparkling Amber DME.

 

[13brv3]

I've been drinking the Citra Sessions, and it's pretty good. It's sort of a lightly spiked grapefruit juice
I have a batch of red in the fermentor but won't likely sample that for some time. I'll probably try the Blonde Ale as well, since my wife likes really bland beer. I'll taste it, but it's not likely I'll drink much of it.

I thought of one really good reason to make these, and that's winter. I clean all my stuff outside with a hose, and it can be too cold to want to do that. The flash brews reduce the cleaning to just the fermentor, and that can be done when it's a relatively warm afternoon.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Basement temperature is 65F (and it's going to be cool outside this week). I don't have a tilt or iSpindel, but I may have time to capture a couple of wort temperatures over the next day or two.

Two days into fermentation, wort temperature moved up to 71F in about a day while basement temperature has moved down (from 65F) to 63F. I'm a little surprised by the 8F difference (on a 2.25 gal batch) - I would anticipate an 8F difference from a strain like London or Windsor, but not from an 80%-ish AA strain (like US-05 / Nottingham).

eta: about 12 hours later, wort temperature has dropped to 67F (which suggests the initial visually active part of fermentation is complete).

 

[CascadesBrewer]

As a follow-up to #236, BeerSmith Podcast #309 starting at about 13:00 (for about 90 seconds) provides enough background on the Flash Brewing DME so one could assume that the Irish Red is not repackaged Briess Sparkling Amber DME.

I would be curious about a trial of the DME included with the Flash brewing kits vs just DME from Muntons or Briess.