'Flash Brewing'? This looks interesting!

[madscientist451]

Or stop testing.

Buy the kit, enjoy the short brew day, and trust MoreBeer's efforts to enjoy the result.


What do you mean by "regular DME"?

IMO "regular DME" is a meaningless phrase. DME (and LME) is brand specific.

They sell Briess, so More beer’s regular DME

 

[madscientist451]

Why should I trust anything More beer says? They are intentionally hiding what yeast strain they are selling, and my hypothesis is that flash DME is the same as regular extract, so what is wrong with testing it?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

so what is wrong with testing it?

Nothing wrong with testing it.

But, and IMO, HomeBrewTalk "forum wisdom" hasn't been keeping up with the "scicence" and ingredient changes that are built into these kits.

Why should I trust anything More beer says?

I'll respect that and move along

 

[mac_1103]

my hypothesis is that flash DME is the same as regular extract

They make a fairly specific claim about the flash brewing DME, namely that the hot break has been removed. And they imply that this is an important distinction. I don't believe that Briess makes such a claim.

The yeast thing is a little strange though. "...selected from a two-year yeast trial to find a strain that ferments extremely fast but with a neutral flavor profile..." doesn't really mean much to me. But the Hefe kit uses WB-06, so if it was just one of the 65 other dry yeasts that they already sell, why would they repackage and relabel it?

 

[madscientist451]

They make a fairly specific claim about the flash brewing DME, namely that the hot break has been removed. And they imply that this is an important distinction. I don't believe that Briess makes such a claim.

I hunted through Briess’s website and can’t find any mention of hot break in their DME. If you see that information, please post a link.
Here’s what I did find:
“Milled grains are first mashed and boiled in the brewhouse, then the filtered “wort” moves to the evaporator. About 70% of the brewhouse productions are evaporated into a thick liquid about the consistency of molasses, most of which is used by food manufacturers and some by breweries. Another 30% is evaporated into less dense liquid that heads to the dryer where it is dried into a fine powder. A unique characteristic that makes handling the dried ingredients a challenge is that they are very hygroscopic which means they rapidly absorb moisture from the air. A small pile of dry powder left on a counter will soon turn into a thick gooey blob.”
Source:
https://www.brewingwithbriess.com/blog/inside-the-briess-extract-plant-and-brewhouse/

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Basic Brewing's Hop Sampler with hot break observation

Ingredients

• 1 gal water, 1# DME, hops, yeast.

Process

• heat water to 140F, add DME
• heat slowly (around 2F per minute) up to 200F, watching for hot break
  • see #79 for link to photo with 'foam' and 'hot break'
• bring wort to boil,
• add hops,
• chill
• ..

Spoiler: I do this periodically.

I see hot break with Briess DME/LME. Williams LME (1 sample in early 2023) showed some. I do not see hot break with Muntons DME.

YMMV as products may change over time.

 

[Kris.J]

Sorry, without any factual information, the above is just an opinion, which is OK.

I understand - I'm just trusting what MB is putting out about it.

 

[DevilsCups]

Why should I trust anything More beer says? They are intentionally hiding what yeast strain they are selling, and my hypothesis is that flash DME is the same as regular extract, so what is wrong with testing it?

If I had to make a bet, I'd say the yeast is Lutra and it's being repackaged under agreement with Omega not to disclose it.

 

[mac_1103]

If I had to make a bet, I'd say the yeast is Lutra and it's being repackaged under agreement with Omega not to disclose it.

Seems like a reasonable guess. Not sure why either party would care about disclosure, but what do I know?

 

[DevilsCups]

Seems like a reasonable guess. Not sure why either party would care about disclosure, but what do I know?

For Omega, it protects them if these kits go south (NOT saying they will!) and people blaming their yeast. For MoreBeer it gives them the appearance of a proprietary product that can't be duplicated.

 

[mac_1103]

For Omega, it protects them if these kits go south (NOT saying they will!) and people blaming their yeast. For MoreBeer it gives them the appearance of a proprietary product that can't be duplicated.

But the use of WB-06 in the Hefe kit argues against both of these.

 

[Kris.J]

My kit is out for delivery.
I had a thought this morning, how am I going to get an OG reading?
The instructions state 2 gallons water in a sanitized fermenter, dump everything in, top up with 3 gallons water, seal it up. No need to even stir.
I'm gonna sanitize my big stainless boil spoon and stir anyway.

I'm want to run this kit as vanilla as possible, as MoreBeer intended - the only things I'll do differently:
1. Stir it up and get an OG that looks sensible.
2. Drop in & calibrate a Tilt floating hydrometer.
3. Add a few drops of FermCap S - I use Catalyst conical fermenters, with this I don't need a blow off tube.

 

[mac_1103]

I had a thought this morning, how am I going to get an OG reading?

I'm want to run this kit as vanilla as possible, as MoreBeer intended

These two statements seem to be somewhat in conflict with each other.

I know it's hard, but maybe just try to resist the temptation to change anything? How could the OG be "wrong" and what would you do about it anyway?

Reminds me of molecular biology back in the 1980s. Lots of products were coming out that claimed to simplify formerly difficult (or at least intricate) processes. We found that giving these to techs who were well-versed in the conventional methods was a recipe for disaster because they just wouldn't follow instructions that seemed to be in conflict with their years of experience. But give the kit to a noob and it would work perfectly much more often than not.

 

[ncbrewer]

I had a thought this morning, how am I going to get an OG reading?

They don't seem to tell the OG for the kit, but I would just assume the LME would yield about 37 ppg and leave it at that - no OG reading. With extract, there's no efficiency to be concerned with as long as you use all the extract and the right amount of water.

Edit: I was using 37 ppg from LME - wrong. Should be 44 or 45 ppg for DME.

 

[ncbrewer]

I have a safety concern about their yeast. I don't use any diastaticus yeasts because I bottle condition. An extremely small contamination of diastaticus yeast from a previous batch can cause continued fermentation in the bottle in the next batch and result in bottle bombs. I doubt if their yeast is a diastaticus strain, but I would insist on knowing before I would use it.

Edited to acknowledge mac_1103's post about WB-06 being diastatic, for the benefit of anyone who might read this post but not mac_1103's post.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

how am I going to get an OG reading?

Most DME is roughly 44 PPG (points per pound of DME per gallon of water).

To determine PPG, create a smaller wort as a "side experiment":

• 1# (16 oz) DME in 1 gal (4 qts) water, measure SG
  • in this situation, SG is also PPG
• alternative: divide by 4: use just 4 oz DME & 1 qt water
• alternative: divide by 2: use just 2 oz DME & 1 pt water

The smaller the amounts, the greater the need for weight / volume measurements that are both precise and accurate.​

 

[hotbeer]

I agree with others that you should do the kits as instructed. Otherwise it'd be slightly unfair to assess their drinkability. At least for the ones that you are judging the quality of the beer made.

But to get the OG you are at least going to have to mix everything but the yeast. And that will have to be a different kit. Or split the kit in to multiple parts. But then I doubt that you could easily split some of the ingredients without adding factors that will make the results of the part done as instructed dubious results.

A pill won't even have time to quit bobbing if the yeast are that fast acting.

And if the crud taste, smells and looks good., then does OG matter? Though I didn't read all of the previous, so maybe there is some desire to compare other things.

However I'm still not thinking I'll find making beer this fast a enjoyment to the hobby. To me, it'd just be some party time theatrics. But again, if it keeps my suppliers in business, I'm all for it.

 

[mac_1103]

I doubt if their yeast is a diastaticus strain, but I would insist on knowing before I would use it.

So ask them. WB-06 is diastatic BTW. It's not that hard to get rid of as long as you're willing to do the work. Heat works for anything that can tolerate it (including bottles). I use three different sanitizers in succession for things that can't be boiled or baked.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

My kit is out for delivery.

Which kit did you go for?

I am pretty sure that just adding DME to water and skipping the boil is generally fine and won't have much impact. I mostly boil extract batches to get some hop bitterness and I like the idea of at least heating up to near boiling temps to sanitize the wort. It has been a few years, but I have made several of the Basic Brewing "no-boil" hop samplers where the DME is just brought up to boiling temps and hops are steeped.

I am curious about:

• Yeast characteristics: It sure sounds like a Kveik strain. I see that the instructions call for fermentation temps of 65–85°F, though they also give a 10-14 day fermentation period. I am guessing Lutra, but it could also be the Cellar Science Voss or Hornindal strains, or a different strain.
• Hop character: I am not convinced that just a hop oil for bitterness + dry hopping approach will give the same results as a typical brew with hops added late in the boil or in a whirlpool/steep. I am especially curious how this approach would work for their kits like the Irish Red or Hefe, which are not typically dry hopped.

I have also see this "Thermotolerant Yeast" from WHC Labs pop up on a few YouTube videos. It also sounds like it is just a Kveik strain, and could be Lutra.
https://whclab.com/product/high-voltage-yeast/?v=7516fd43adaa

 

[Kris.J]

I know it's hard, but maybe just try to resist the temptation to change anything? How could the OG be "wrong" and what would you do about it anyway?

I've worked in IT network infrastructure since the infancy of the Internet - my need for logged & monitored data is strong!

But you're right Mac - thank you.
I'll just drop the Tilt in so I can watch the fermentation trend & 10 drops of FermCap S so I don't lose a bunch of it thru blow off.

 

[Kris.J]

Which kit did you go for?

'I Heart IPA' - Bell's Two Hearted clone.

 

[mac_1103]

I'll just drop the Tilt in so I can watch the fermentation trend

The Tilt readings should be interesting given everything that will be going on. How long will the DME take to fully dissolve and how much will ferment before it's fully dissolved? How much will the wort stratify and how much will it ferment before it becomes relatively homogeneous?

 

[Kris.J]

The Tilt readings should be interesting given everything that will be going on. How long will the DME take to fully dissolve and how much will ferment before it's fully dissolved? How much will the wort stratify and how much will it ferment before it becomes relatively homogeneous?

Oooh yah, good point! Gonna be a funky chart.

 

[ncbrewer]

So ask them. WB-06 is diastatic BTW. It's not that hard to get rid of as long as you're willing to do the work. Heat works for anything that can tolerate it (including bottles). I use three different sanitizers in succession for things that can't be boiled or baked.

It seems that some feel ok with diastatic yeast (and bottle conditioning) and some who don't. I don't. There's no way that I know of to see whether it's all gone. At present I don't plan to try this flash brewing. If I think about trying it, I'll definitely ask about diastaticus. My comment was mainly for those who are interested in trying it but might not have thought about the diastaticus issue.

 

[mashdar]

There's 0% chance they would make all these styles with STA1+ yeast.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

if the crud

I see that it's still popular here at HomeBrewTalk to use derogatory words to describe equipment, processes and ingredients that don't fit the conventional brewing wisdom.

 

[hotbeer]

I see that it's still popular here at HomeBrewTalk to use derogatory words to describe equipment, processes and ingredients that don't fit the conventional brewing wisdom.

It a over exaggeration of what I feel about it at the moment. I don't consider it as derogatory as your comment about my use of that word.

 

[madscientist451]

Perhaps it’s time to relax and have an (extract) homebrew?

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

LOL if you guys could see my cruddy value priced gear: 5½ gallon stock pot for mash-in-a-bag/boil on a crappy glass top kitchen stove (making 3 gallon batches) in air-conditioned, bug-free comfort! Fermenting in a plastic bucket in a cool basement with nothing more than a swamp cooler. I even still do some all-extract brewing -- tastes great!

Anyways, if morebeer sold these new kits in 2.5 gallons, I'd definitely give one a try (or a 5 gallon kit if it was easy to split it in half). I realize stockpot size isn't so much an issue if there's no need to boil, but I don't drink so much as I used to, so 5 gallons at a time would just be too much.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

LOL if you guys could see my cruddy value priced gear: 5½ gallon stock pot for mash-in-a-bag/boil on a crappy glass top kitchen stove (making 3 gallon batches) in air-conditioned, bug-free comfort! Fermenting in a plastic bucket in a cool basement with nothing more than a swamp cooler. I even still do some all-extract brewing -- tastes great!

Same, but with a 4 gal stock pot. With a little creativity, I can do 3 gal (in the fermenter) batches (either BIAB or extract+steep)

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Perhaps it’s time to relax and have an (extract) homebrew?

Perhaps.

I'll stop with this additional comment: HBT is (in part) advertising sponsored.

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

As for price... presuming one gets a typical 50 twelve-oz bottles from the kit, Flash Bell's 2 Hearted costs $55, plus cheapest flat-rate shipping is another $10...
At my nearest Total wine shop, 48 twelve-oz bottles would cost me $68, plus sales tax. But then I'd have a bunch more bottles I could re-use, too. Pretty much a wash, price wise, if you ask me.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Anyways, if morebeer sold these new kits in 2.5 gallons, I'd definitely give one a try (or a 5 gallon kit if it was easy to split it in half). I realize stockpot size isn't so much an issue if there's no need to boil, but I don't drink so much as I used to, so 5 gallons at a time would just be too much.

Agreed. With a 2.5 gal (or 2.0 gal) size, I'd give the kits a try and enjoy the result. Because sometimes I want a very short brew day.

My (minor) concern about splitting is the "hot shot" syringe. From the video, and with the "hop shot" liquid warm, it feels like it should be possible to push out only half of the liquid. The other ingredients are pretty easy to "divide by 2".

 

[mac_1103]

Flash Bell's 2 Hearted costs $55, plus cheapest flat-rate shipping is another $10...

Or buy a $4 item to get free shipping.

My (minor) concern about splitting is the "hot shot" syringe.

From the pics, it looks like the 60 IBU shot in the IPA kit might actually be two 30 IBU syringes.

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

Weird that MoreBeer says those hopbite shots need to be added to boiling water, yet their flash brewing makes no such claim. If I was a betting man, I'd wager that their "flash malt" is just repackaged Briess dme, with custom-blended amounts of Pilsner/Golden Light/Pale Ale/Bavarian Wheat/Sparkling Amber dme that get fairly close. Also would explain why the recipes are all pretty light in color.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

From the pics, it looks like the 60 IBU shot in the IPA kit might actually be two 30 IBU syringes.

Thanks! I watched the video which left me with the impression there was just one syringe.

 

[BrewZer]

so curiosity got the better of me and I ordered the Citra Session Pale Ale kit.

Me, too, so I ordered the Hefeweizen. We can compare notes after they're done and bottled/kegged.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Weird that MoreBeer says those hopbite shots need to be added to boiling water, yet their flash brewing makes no such claim.

Might be different products.

If I was a betting man, I'd wager that their "flash malt" is just repackaged Briess dme, with custom-blended amounts of Pilsner/Golden Light/Pale Ale/Bavarian Wheat/Sparkling Amber dme that get fairly close. [...]

It's possible.

But the idea of being able to brew a custom wort and dry it is much more interesting.

Williams has a line of style specific LMEs. MoreBeer's has an UltraLight LME product where they were able to customize the brewing process to make a unique product. Williams also has a newish DME product line (currently two products) that is made in France. IIRC there was a topic that speculated on where Williams was getting their LME - there apparently are a number of lower volume (vs Briess) malt making plants in the USA. Did one of those plants add the ability to dry the wort (as a comparative advantage over their competitors)?

The Flash Brewing Kit FAQ says they removed the hot break. Back in #86, I mentioned that I see "hot break" with Briess DME.

If I work backwards starting with a 7# bag of a custom wort made with DME, is it more economical, at scale, to blend existing DME products or to spray dry a custom wort? I know nothing about the packaging industry. The idea of being able to brew a custom wort and spray dry it seems (to me) to be more interesting.

 

[BrewZer]

My kit is out for delivery.
I had a thought this morning, how am I going to get an OG reading?
The instructions state 2 gallons water in a sanitized fermenter, dump everything in, top up with 3 gallons water, seal it up. No need to even stir.
I'm gonna sanitize my big stainless boil spoon and stir anyway.

I'm want to run this kit as vanilla as possible, as MoreBeer intended - the only things I'll do differently:
1. Stir it up and get an OG that looks sensible.
2. Drop in & calibrate a Tilt floating hydrometer.
3. Add a few drops of FermCap S - I use Catalyst conical fermenters, with this I don't need a blow off tube.

I'm gonna use a refractometer and mix everything EXCEPT the hops & yeast, add them after I measure OG, and shake the heck out of the fermenter to blend.

But do we really even need an OG reading? If we follow the recipe, we should duplicate MoreBeer's results, right?

 

[mac_1103]

I watched the video which left me with the impression there was just one syringe.

Different kit?