'Flash Brewing'? This looks interesting!

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Do you still need to de-chlorinate the water?

From the Cali Mountain kit instructions (PDF):

I don't know if the relevant tannins survive the boil (or the flash dry).

My understanding is that tannins are extracted

... from grain husks​

... when sparging, steeping, or mashing​

... at a high temperature​

... with a high water pH​

.... and/or with high bicarbonates.​

There are no grains (and no grain husks) in these kits.

For other processes that brew with DME / LME and steeping grains, take the time to read chapter 1 of How to Brew, 4e. In the book, Palmer does an excellent job of poka-yoke-ing (error proofing) many common new brewer mistakes.

 

[mashdar]

I should have said "polyphenols" instead of "tannins". The former is more general, and is pretty universally used in homebrewing texts.

I was wondering if the protein breaks and susbequent filtering in the flash-beer DME might make chlorine irrelevant. (Hot break should reduce polyphenol content. I imagine cold break would, too. And likely there's some primo filtering before the sprayer nozzle!)

But if the instructions call for dechlorinated water, the spectre of band-aid beer must live on in flash brewing.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

But if the instructions call for dechlorinated water, the spectre of band-aid beer must live on in flash brewing.

FWIW, all brewing water calls for removing chlorine and chloramine.

I should have said "polyphenols" instead of "tannins".

https://beersmith.com/blog/2012/06/19/phenolics-and-tannins-in-home-brewed-beer/

 

[mashdar]

But if flash brewing let you just open the tap, that'd be a pretty neat feature. I've never waited until after the boil to add water, so it's new territory for me.

Are there other pre-boiled DME? Is that what hopped extract is? (I always figured it had tiny hop particles or something, but I've never seen it in the wild.)

edit: TIL https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/how-to-brew/how-malt-extract-is-made/

So this is unhopped extract processed as if it were hopped. Interesting.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

But if flash brewing let you just open the tap, that'd be a pretty neat feature. I've never waited until after the boil to add water, so it's new territory for me.

Are there other pre-boiled DME? Is that what hopped extract is? (I always figured it had tiny hop particles or something, but I've never seen it in the wild.)

Good questions, but a long way from the primary topic. Consider asking your questions in a fresh topic where they will get better visibility (and maybe more discussion).

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Are there other pre-boiled DME? Is that what hopped extract is? (I always figured it had tiny hop particles or something, but I've never seen it in the wild.)

I could be wrong, but I am not convinced the DME that comes with the Flash Brewing kits is any different than standard DME. The iGulu has a similar "just mix with water" approach. On their site they list the ingredients as "CBW Pale Ale DME, by Briess." In the walkthrough video, the DME looks exactly like a bag of off the shelf Briess DME (even with a LD Carlson logo).

https://igulu.com/blogs/recipes/how...r-the-hoppy-bitter-pale-ale-brew-kit-and-more

 

[madscientist451]

Hmmm....they also say:

Briess CBW® malt extracts get all of their color and flavor from base and specialty malts, never through additional boiling.

It seems odd that MoreBeer could have batches of a custom wort created for each recipe then have it dried and still sell it for a reasonable price. Maybe they plan to do enough volume to make this work though.

I’m skeptical about the notion they are having any thing made just for these kits. However, the flash yeast does look like it is specially packaged for them. They may be using K-97 German ale yeast which is good from 64-78F. I added up the price of DME, cryo hops and a hop shot from More Beer’s price list and the kit price is about the same. A custom made DME would be more expensive. I sometimes brew extract batches in the summer but I have to add a ton of hops to mask the extract flavor I don’t like. I heat the water to just below boiling to sanitize, while making a hop tea in a side pot. If I don’t drink it in 3-4 weeks the hop flavor fades to a point where I notice the extract taste again. So it’s best for me to do 2.5 gallon batches. Perhaps I’ll try their method using cryo hops and the hop shot. But I’m not sure I’m ready to just add cold water to the DME.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

edit: TIL https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/how-to-brew/how-malt-extract-is-made/

So this is unhopped extract processed as if it were hopped. Interesting.

Back in the mid 2010s, Briess had similar diagrams which suggested they use a different process. Unfortunately, much of that information didn't survive a couple of web site refreshes.

eta and FWIW: in other topics here at HomeBrewTalk, those brew with both Briess and Muntons have mentioned minor visual differences in the way that these two brands perform when heating to a boil. In a small number of brew days, I found those visual differences were visible in a brand of LME as well.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I sometimes brew extract batches in the summer but I have to add a ton of hops to mask the extract flavor I don’t like. I heat the water to just below boiling to sanitize, while making a hop tea in a side pot. If I don’t drink it in 3-4 weeks the hop flavor fades to a point where I notice the extract taste again. So it’s best for me to do 2.5 gallon batches. Perhaps I’ll try their method using cryo hops and the hop shot. But I’m not sure I’m ready to just add cold water to the DME.

There are a couple of people in the NEIPA/hazy/IPA topics that are winning competitions with DME based recipes. Consider PM-img them for ideas on how they do what they do.

 

[Kris.J]

From what I gather, these kits are not 'just DME' the way we're used to.

 

[Kris.J]

Do you still need to de-chlorinate the water? I don't know if the relevant tannins survive the boil (or the flash dry).

1st paragraph of the PDF instructions:

 

[Kris.J]

From what I gather, these kits are not 'just DME' the way we're used to.

https://www.morebeer.com/content/flash_brewing_FAQ

How did you eliminate the need to boil? ​

Our Flash Malts undergo boiling and whirlpooling to remove the hot break before being dried. We then use an innovative Hop Bite™ oil, which provides a smooth, clean bitterness without the need to be boiled.

 

[Kris.J]

The Flash Malt product has been processed a step further than regular LME / DME. Same with the hops - the hop bite oil has already been processed a step further, so we don't need to boil to achieve alpha acid isomerization.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

@KrisJ: one way to look for hot break in DME (or LME) is to add the DME (no hops) at around 140F then gently heat it to a boil.

From what I have seen different brands of DME (or LME) will show different amounts (or no) hot break.

Within a brand, the specific styles of DME / LME seem to be consistent in the amount of hot break.

 

[mac_1103]

From what I have seen different brands of DME (or LME) will show different amounts (or no) hot break.

Photographic documentation of this would be awesome, but I understand if you don't have pics.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

From what I have seen different brands of DME (or LME) will show different amounts (or no) hot break.

Photographic documentation of this would be awesome, but I understand if you don't have pics.

I posted pictures here (HomeBrewTalk) a couple of years ago.

 

[mac_1103]

I posted pictures here (HomeBrewTalk) a couple of years ago.

Ooh, a search engine challenge...

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

@mac_1103 : I found a similar photo here at HomeBrewTalk (link) with a site specific "duckduckgo" on images.

• "Foam" (lower left and on top of the wort) seems to be common to all the brands of DME/LME I have used.
• "Aggregates" (upper right and often floating just below the "foam") can be observed (if it occurs) between 150F and 190F.

The amount of "Aggregates" (if any) seemed to vary based on brand (Muntons, Briess, various online stores), rather than type (LME, DME), or style (extra light, amber, ...). Caution: in some cases, my sample size is 1 or 2; but for 'common' brands, I often repeat this 'experiment'.

 

[madscientist451]

The Flash Malt product has been processed a step further than regular LME / DME.

Sorry, without any factual information, the above is just an opinion, which is OK.
The only way to test it would be to buy a kit, divide in half, and make 1/2 with the provided flash malt and the other half with regular DME. I’m kinda bored right now, and might just do it.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

The only way to test ...

Or stop testing.

Buy the kit, enjoy the short brew day, and trust MoreBeer's efforts to enjoy the result.

regular DME

What do you mean by "regular DME"?

IMO "regular DME" is a meaningless phrase. DME (and LME) is brand specific.

 

[madscientist451]

Or stop testing.

Buy the kit, enjoy the short brew day, and trust MoreBeer's efforts to enjoy the result.


What do you mean by "regular DME"?

IMO "regular DME" is a meaningless phrase. DME (and LME) is brand specific.

They sell Briess, so More beer’s regular DME

 

[madscientist451]

Why should I trust anything More beer says? They are intentionally hiding what yeast strain they are selling, and my hypothesis is that flash DME is the same as regular extract, so what is wrong with testing it?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

so what is wrong with testing it?

Nothing wrong with testing it.

But, and IMO, HomeBrewTalk "forum wisdom" hasn't been keeping up with the "scicence" and ingredient changes that are built into these kits.

Why should I trust anything More beer says?

I'll respect that and move along

 

[mac_1103]

my hypothesis is that flash DME is the same as regular extract

They make a fairly specific claim about the flash brewing DME, namely that the hot break has been removed. And they imply that this is an important distinction. I don't believe that Briess makes such a claim.

The yeast thing is a little strange though. "...selected from a two-year yeast trial to find a strain that ferments extremely fast but with a neutral flavor profile..." doesn't really mean much to me. But the Hefe kit uses WB-06, so if it was just one of the 65 other dry yeasts that they already sell, why would they repackage and relabel it?

 

[madscientist451]

They make a fairly specific claim about the flash brewing DME, namely that the hot break has been removed. And they imply that this is an important distinction. I don't believe that Briess makes such a claim.

I hunted through Briess’s website and can’t find any mention of hot break in their DME. If you see that information, please post a link.
Here’s what I did find:
“Milled grains are first mashed and boiled in the brewhouse, then the filtered “wort” moves to the evaporator. About 70% of the brewhouse productions are evaporated into a thick liquid about the consistency of molasses, most of which is used by food manufacturers and some by breweries. Another 30% is evaporated into less dense liquid that heads to the dryer where it is dried into a fine powder. A unique characteristic that makes handling the dried ingredients a challenge is that they are very hygroscopic which means they rapidly absorb moisture from the air. A small pile of dry powder left on a counter will soon turn into a thick gooey blob.”
Source:
https://www.brewingwithbriess.com/blog/inside-the-briess-extract-plant-and-brewhouse/

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Basic Brewing's Hop Sampler with hot break observation

Ingredients

• 1 gal water, 1# DME, hops, yeast.

Process

• heat water to 140F, add DME
• heat slowly (around 2F per minute) up to 200F, watching for hot break
  • see #79 for link to photo with 'foam' and 'hot break'
• bring wort to boil,
• add hops,
• chill
• ..

Spoiler: I do this periodically.

I see hot break with Briess DME/LME. Williams LME (1 sample in early 2023) showed some. I do not see hot break with Muntons DME.

YMMV as products may change over time.

 

[Kris.J]

Sorry, without any factual information, the above is just an opinion, which is OK.

I understand - I'm just trusting what MB is putting out about it.

 

[DevilsCups]

Why should I trust anything More beer says? They are intentionally hiding what yeast strain they are selling, and my hypothesis is that flash DME is the same as regular extract, so what is wrong with testing it?

If I had to make a bet, I'd say the yeast is Lutra and it's being repackaged under agreement with Omega not to disclose it.

 

[mac_1103]

If I had to make a bet, I'd say the yeast is Lutra and it's being repackaged under agreement with Omega not to disclose it.

Seems like a reasonable guess. Not sure why either party would care about disclosure, but what do I know?

 

[DevilsCups]

Seems like a reasonable guess. Not sure why either party would care about disclosure, but what do I know?

For Omega, it protects them if these kits go south (NOT saying they will!) and people blaming their yeast. For MoreBeer it gives them the appearance of a proprietary product that can't be duplicated.