First use of starters - shorter ferment time?

[iXanadu]

After my nightmare with a heavy coffee stout, and much reading on this board I'm using starters now. I have two primaries going, with different results so far.

1) Belgiun wit: This was re harvested trub off of previous brew, about a week old, stored in the fridge. Previous brew was same recipe so pitched entire 900 ml starter. The starter took off right away and was 18 hours old and fully active when I pitched it. OG was 1.062 @ 71 degrees. 3 Hours later I have airlock activity and 4 days later am bubbling about every 55 secs.

2) Mocha porter: Used WL yeast to make starter. The starter took a while to take off so we couldn't brew the day we wanted. Ended up brewing the next day with a 48 hour old starter that had completely finished with a trub. The OG of this beer was 1.042 @ 70 degrees. 10 hours later (next morning) no airlock activity. When I got home from work, almost 20 hours after pitching there is airlock activity and plenty of it. Its two days later and I still have plenty of airlock activity, about 13 sec apart.

Questions:

1) Any ideas why the first starter was so much faster than the second, is it because I was reusing trub?

2) Why such a long lag for the second brew? This is what I've been experiencing with I just pitched the WL vial directly. I'm wondering if I blew some the starter some how?

3) For both of these brews: Does using a starter like this give me a shorter ferment time, or just a healthier one? When should I start checking the gravity, I generally don't even peek for 7 days.

Bob

 

[Pelikan]

Did you have good results reusing trub? The next two brews I do will both be using the same yeast (White Labs Burton Ale), and I was hoping to make a starter from some of the liquid/trub that remains after racking the first, which would then be pitched into the fresh wort the following day.

How did you go about transferring the trub/yeast?

 

[carnevoodoo]

You used two different types of yeast. They're always pretty unpredictable, so I wouldn't say one was worse than the other. And just because there was no initial airlock activity doesn't mean nothing was happening.

I'd say that yes, you'll typically get a shorter ferment time with a starter. The yeast has to reproduce first in an environment without a starter. That time is shortened by a larger population.

 

[Gordie]

Quick answers...

1. Yes. Generally, the best source of healthy, viable yeast we all have access to is the creamy stuff in the bottom of a primary fermenter.

2. The lag could be a lot of things including the ambient temperature of your wort and the possibility your yeast went back to sleep after being in the starter for that long. In general, you should have a better quality fermentation than just pitching the vial, though. You pitched a more appropriate cell count and the yeast should have a better time of it (ie. more predictable flavor contribution) than just pitching a single vial directly.

3. Generally you'll get a healthier fermentation which may or may not be shorter. It depends on the constitution of your wort, ambient temperatures and how your yeast are feeling that day. As a rule, fermentations with starters take less time since you're giving your yeast a head start.

Gordie

 

[iXanadu]

carn & Gordie: Thanks for the comments. Some things about this hobby makes sense and some seems to defy it.

Did you have good results reusing trub? The next two brews I do will both be using the same yeast (White Labs Burton Ale), and I was hoping to make a starter from some of the liquid/trub that remains after racking the first, which would then be pitched into the fresh wort the following day.

How did you go about transferring the trub/yeast?

Re-using the trub in this instance was great. I used 4 sterilized WL vials and a sterilized turkey baster. I didn't have quart jars to wash the yeast, so harvested the trub directly without washing. I filled each of the vials and put them in the fridge. I plan to pitch them in same recipe batches since they are un-washed.

I used one vial this weekend in a starter. Starter took of right away (1-2 hr) and was in full activity in 18hr with a nice head of krausen. I pitched entire starter in to a same-recipe brew - had airlock activity in 3 hours. Was strong for 3 more days and is now bubbling about every 55 secs.

There are lots of tips here and on Google about harvesting yeast. Not as scary as I initially thought. I do want to wash though - I just haven't picked up the quart jars.

Good Luck.

 

[Bob]

1) Any ideas why the first starter was so much faster than the second, is it because I was reusing trub?

2) Why such a long lag for the second brew? This is what I've been experiencing with I just pitched the WL vial directly. I'm wondering if I blew some the starter some how?

3) For both of these brews: Does using a starter like this give me a shorter ferment time, or just a healthier one? When should I start checking the gravity, I generally don't even peek for 7 days.

Let's take these in order.

1. There are many variables, though you're not wrong. The best source of healthy, viable yeast is from the sediment of a properly-conducted ferment. One of the worst sources of healthy, viable yeast is a vial or slant. You had exponentially more healthy cells in the slurry starter vs. the slant starter; the slant starter had to go through a hell of a lot more cell division.

2. See above. You can - and should - pitch slurry directly. There is no reason to put it into a starter. Simply store the sample cold under beer. It'll keep for 7 - 14 days. Those little vials need all the help they can get. There are two things you can do with starters: pitch it while it's active and foamy, and let the starter ferment die down, decant the "beer" and pitch the slurry from the starter flask.

3. Shorter? Maybe, maybe not. Healthier? Probably. The trick is to pitch the correct amount of yeast, not just more. See this post for more information.

4. (Just because you snuck it in on Question 3 doesn't mean it's not Question 4, Sneaky-pants! ) Leave it alone for at least seven days. You ferment may finish in 48 hours, but the extra time is useful for things like diacetyl reduction and settling. The more time you give the spent yeast and proteins to flocculate, the more sediment stays in the primary. Take a gravity reading on day 8, then every other day until you collect three like readings. Get three in a row, and you're good to move the beer, whether it's to a bright tank or package.

Cheers,

Bob

 

[Bob]

Did you have good results reusing trub? The next two brews I do will both be using the same yeast (White Labs Burton Ale), and I was hoping to make a starter from some of the liquid/trub that remains after racking the first, which would then be pitched into the fresh wort the following day.

How did you go about transferring the trub/yeast?

Don't make a starter! Just store the slurry cold under beer and pitch that!

There are all manner of storage bins in your house waiting for service in the brewery. Best is a wide-mouth Mason Jar or glass jam jar. Plastic, like Tupperware, works, but you must be extra careful about sanitization; glass is far better.

Using a clean, sanitized spoon, carefully skim the cake until fresh yeast is seen. You're looking for tan or cream colored slime that smells like fresh yeast. When you find it, just skim that stuff into your sanitized glass jar. Collect more of it than you've calculated you need - see this post - just in case. There's probably some beer left in the fermenter from which you're harvesting; if you tilted the tank, there's bound to be some left in the corner. Use a sanitized turkey baster to get a few ml of that beer into the jar, on top of your yeast. Don't worry if it gets a little mixed up; the yeast will settle. Do not seal the jar. It may build pressure and go bang. I just cover mine with sanitized cling film and a rubber band.

You can also use glass juice bottles. You'll need a funnel - and a fairly runny strain of yeast - to get the yeast in there, but you can seal them with a stopper and airlock.

When it's time to pitch, I just swirl the jar to combine everything into a slurry of even consistency, then pitch by weight. I don't bother to wash or store for any length of time. Do a search for "yeast washing" - you'll find very helpful threads like this.

Regards,

Bob

 

[iXanadu]

Bob,

Thank you for taking time to provide a detailed answer to my questions. I'm finding this new hobby like Texas Holdem. You can learn to play the game in a couple of sessions, but it may take a very long time to master the nuances of the game. It doesn't help that you get so many different opinions from reasonably competent home-brewers. The newbie is left to figure out the science in the midst of the art, (assuming that the sciences even matters that much.

2. See above. You can - and should - pitch slurry directly. There is no reason to put it into a starter. Simply store the sample cold under beer. It'll keep for 7 - 14 days. Those little vials need all the help they can get. There are two things you can do with starters: pitch it while it's active and foamy, and let the starter ferment die down, decant the "beer" and pitch the slurry from the starter flask.

I may have invalid expectations here. My first harvest was 4 WL vials of trub (unwashed) from a Belgium Wit. I was hoping they would last in the vegetable crisper in the fridge for up to 4 months. This week-end will be 14 days. Are you saying that they may not be viable past that. Seems this might be where a starter could come in handy, I could -test- the viability of the yeast and pitch the starter (or throw it away) depending on if it took off or not.

4. (Just because you snuck it in on Question 3 doesn't mean it's not Question 4, Sneaky-pants! ) Leave it alone for at least seven days. You ferment may finish in 48 hours, but the extra time is useful for things like diacetyl reduction and settling. The more time you give the spent yeast and proteins to flocculate, the more sediment stays in the primary. Take a gravity reading on day 8, then every other day until you collect three like readings. Get three in a row, and you're good to move the beer, whether it's to a bright tank or package.

This is actually a subject I'm researching a lot right how. How to know when to move to a secondary? I have three pails for primary and three carboys. I'm reading the debate on whether to secondary or not but for me, it boils down to availability of equipment. I'll do a secondary to free up the primary. (There are three us brewing here, and a single batch doesn't go as far as it would for a single brewer - plus we like to show off - uh share). My current practice is to measure on day 7 regardless of airlock activity. This is mostly because I want to see where I am in regards to expected gravity and because so many seemingly reputable home brewers here say that airlock activity isn't much of an indication of anything. Where my lack of experience is getting me is when the gravity seems like it has hit the mark. For instance last night I was on day 10 with a Hefeweizen. OG was 1.046 software predicted a FG of 1.010. Day 7 had the gravity at 1.016. Day 10 I'm at 1.010 but a full head of krauzen. I carried the pail downstairs to rack to the secondary and the krauzen fell. I didn't allow enough time to settle so much of the yeast stayed suspended in the beer. I brewed a second Hefie and pitched on top of the trub (very little there, but still maybe too much). Today after work I have a ton of activity on the new Hefie primary, but to my surprise the secondary has developed a head, and is perking every 5-6 minutes. I guess its possible for it to go down to 1.08 but I really didn't expect that much activity. I'll leave it in the secondary for at least a week (its a Hefie) maybe two.

For the move to secondary here are the rules I think I'm forming in my mind.

1) Check at day 7.
2) Depending on how close check 1-several days later.
3) When it hits where the SW calculate the final gravity move to the secondary.

I think the only shortcut I'm taking is not doing three successive tests to make sure the fermentation is finished before going to the secondary. Since I'm not bottling I don't think thats a problem. Your thoughts?

 

[Bob]

Thank you for taking time to provide a detailed answer to my questions. I'm finding this new hobby like Texas Holdem. You can learn to play the game in a couple of sessions, but it may take a very long time to master the nuances of the game. It doesn't help that you get so many different opinions from reasonably competent home-brewers. The newbie is left to figure out the science in the midst of the art, assuming that the sciences even matters that much.

It can be frustrating. There is a lot of information out there, and a lot of opinion. Ask four brewers about something, and you're likely to get seven opinions.

I always contend that the science matters to the brewer who really cares about the quality of his beer. It's possible to make good beer without science, but even drinkable beer is by no means assured. Add the science, and you have a much greater chance of success.

I may have invalid expectations here. My first harvest was 4 WL vials of trub (unwashed) from a Belgium Wit. I was hoping they would last in the vegetable crisper in the fridge for up to 4 months. This week-end will be 14 days. Are you saying that they may not be viable past that. Seems this might be where a starter could come in handy, I could -test- the viability of the yeast and pitch the starter (or throw it away) depending on if it took off or not.

One of the hundreds of Rules of Thumb is that you lose 25% viability for every week in storage. Yeast will live quite a long time, though, as others on this board have pointed out. If you want to store it for longer than a couple of weeks, you really need to wash it. Search for "yeast washing"; there's lots of good info here on HBT.

I do recommend making a starter if you don't have the recommended amount of slurry to pitch, or if your slurry's viability has suffered.

This is actually a subject I'm researching a lot right how. How to know when to move to a secondary?

Oh, boy. You were talking about opinion?

My current practice is to measure on day 7 regardless of airlock activity. This is mostly because I want to see where I am in regards to expected gravity and because so many seemingly reputable home brewers here say that airlock activity isn't much of an indication of anything.

There's nothing wrong with your practice, and I agree with those brewers. The only reliable indicator of fermentation progress is gravity - the suspension of sugars in solution. As the ferment progresses, the yeast metabolize sugars, replacing them in solution with ethanol and devolving carbon dioxide gas. Yes, the presence of devolving carbon dioxide gas is an indicator of fermentation. However, as we'll get to in a moment, gas can devolve at other times, times when the ferment is complete. But a hydrometer reading is a hydrometer reading. It doesn't go back up for some reason - in other words, it cannot give you bad information (unless you don't know how to properly read it).

Where my lack of experience is getting me is when the gravity seems like it has hit the mark. For instance last night I was on day 10 with a Hefeweizen. OG was 1.046 software predicted a FG of 1.010. Day 7 had the gravity at 1.016. Day 10 I'm at 1.010 but a full head of krauzen. I carried the pail downstairs to rack to the secondary and the krauzen fell.

You've learned a valuable lesson - patience. Days mean nothing. Different yeasts work at difference paces. The same yeast may work at different paces depending on the environment in which they're working.

I didn't allow enough time to settle so much of the yeast stayed suspended in the beer.

At the risk of pointing out the obvious, it's a Hefeweizen - the yeast is supposed to stay in suspension. If it doesn't, you no longer have Hefeweizen!

I brewed a second Hefie and pitched on top of the trub (very little there, but still maybe too much). Today after work I have a ton of activity on the new Hefie primary, but to my surprise the secondary has developed a head, and is perking every 5-6 minutes. I guess its possible for it to go down to 1.08 but I really didn't expect that much activity. I'll leave it in the secondary for at least a week (its a Hefie) maybe two.

I don't think you've got much fermentation activity in the secondary. You've roused the yeast from racking, which can encourage further activity, but I think the primary thing that's happened is that carbon dioxide gas is devolving from the beer. Check the gravity in a couple of days, and watch the krausen.

For the move to secondary here are the rules I think I'm forming in my mind.

1) Check at day 7.
2) Depending on how close check 1-several days later.
3) When it hits where the SW calculate the final gravity move to the secondary.

I think the only shortcut I'm taking is not doing three successive tests to make sure the fermentation is finished before going to the secondary. Since I'm not bottling I don't think thats a problem. Your thoughts?

I think you're right about that. You don't really need to have flat-lined beer to rack safely, though you must have flat-lined beer before bottling.

It is, however, good practice to ensure the ferment is complete before racking. If it isn't, you may stall it by taking it off the yeast cake. And it's a good idea to allow the beer to remain on the yeast cake for 24-36 hours after the ferment is finished. On the one hand, you permit the yeast to clean up certain volatile fermentation esters like diacetyl. On the other, it gives some time for yeast to do dormant and fall out of suspension.

Also, keep in mind that what your software tells you isn't necessarily what's going to happen. ProMash may say I'll go from 1.044 to 1.010 - the software is using a median of the attenuation range (if known) like "70-74%", it'll use 72%. For a variety of reasons, you may not experience that number; you may see 69% attenuation, you may see 78% attenuation. You won't know until your hydrometer tells you!

Cheers,

Bob

 

[TexLaw]

Also, keep in mind that what your software tells you isn't necessarily what's going to happen. ProMash may say I'll go from 1.044 to 1.010 - the software is using a median of the attenuation range (if known) like "70-74%", it'll use 72%. For a variety of reasons, you may not experience that number; you may see 69% attenuation, you may see 78% attenuation. You won't know until your hydrometer tells you!

ProMash and other brewing software products commonly used by homebrewers also do not account for fermentability of the wort. They do not account for crystal malt or maltodextrine additions, for example, much less mashing techniques that can vary the fermentability of your wort. You have to consider those factors on your own, rather than (gasp) rely on the almighty computer.


TL