First timer questions and anxieties

[Nick Z]

I'll give that another try.

Update on the ciders:

Primary fermentation seems to be done or close to done on both of the jugs of apple juice. I am still getting occasional bubbles through the airlock on the one with SafCider. The one with the champagne yeast was still bubbling through the blow off tube but not much. So I put on a (sanitized) airlock. So far no bubbles. I hope I didn't murder the yeast or contaminate it.

Both jugs are starting to clear up. I may rack them to clean jugs in a few days. I am, however, a little reluctant to do this because it seems like primary fermentation finishing in less than a week is too fast. Perhaps the temperature was too high or I used too much yeast or something. I was under the impression that primary fermentation would take weeks.

Even if primary fermentation is done I am going to give them some time for the yeast and crud to fall to the bottom.

I also started a half gallon of pear juice. What little yield I got out of the bartlett pears went in there. Hit with a campden tablet, then pectinase, and then put in the yeast yesterday and put on an airlock. I didn't shake the jug, which I should have. The yeast didn't look like they were doing much on the surface. I used the SafCider yeast.

I forgot to add yeast nutrient and so I just put some in, shook the jug, and put the airlock back on. I used isopropyl alcohol to wipe down the parts that would be exposed to the air. Hopefully I see some yeast activity in a few days.

 

[Nick Z]

Quick update:

The half gallon of pear juice is (slowly) fermenting. I think perhaps I filtered it too well and took out too many solids. I have a three piece airlock and it appears to be bubbling.

The juice I squeezed from cider apples appears to have stopped fermenting. At least I'm not seeing any bubbles through the airlock. I am going to rack it into a new jug). My concern is that there will be more airspace in the new jug since I will be leaving the lees and stuff behind from the primary jug. Do I need to top it off with apple juice or just leave the airspace there and slap on a fresh airlock?

The orchard juice got racked into a secondary jug and is sitting there doing.... nothing. I don't know if that's good or bad. I did top that off with pasteurized apple juice (Trader Joe's honeycrisp to be precise).

I bought a gallon of Whole Food's 365 apple juice. Pitched some yeast (and nutrient) in there and put on a blow off tube. I am already seeing small bubbles in the jar of sanitizer the tube is in. I used Mangrove Jack's M02 cider yeast.

I am also trying to get as much quince juice out of my quince as I can. So far the yield has been terrible. If I get a quart of juice out of several pounds of quince I will be surprised.

 

[RPh_Guy]

You need to minimize oxygen exposure to the cider.

IF you rack, you should make sure the vessel is full, or you can purge it with CO2. Yes, you should add more cider or something like glass marbles to take up space.
Furthermore, it's best to rack with only a few gravity points left so that yeast are still active enough to consume the oxygen. Don't rack too early otherwise it may stall.

However ...
If you leave the fermenter sealed under airlock, the headspace stays filled with natural CO2. Therefore you don't need to rack it. This eliminates the need to worry about monitoring gravity points or managing the headspace.

That's the method I prefer. Leave it alone in primary and bottle in 2-6 months. Simple and effective.

 

[Nick Z]

I just racked the cider to a secondary jug.

As per your advice I topped it off with pasteurized apple juice. Used almost a quart. I hated to dilute the cider apples with regular apple juice but it was better than too much oxidation or infection.

As far as gravity goes.... I have no idea what the gravity is now or was at the start. I don't have a hydrometer. But I just ordered one.

I think you may be on to something about stalling because the first cider that was racked has done exactly nothing so far. No bubbles that I can see in the airlock. I figured almost all of the sugar were used up. But if I don't see activity in the second one I'm going to get worried. Because a quart of fresh juice ought to have enough sugar to give the yeast something to chew on.

Would it be beneficial to toss a little more yeast or yeast nutrient in?

The cider I just racked had that rotten egg smell I have read about. When I started that one I didn't have any yeast nutrient but I think I added some later when it came in the mail.

The first one didn't have such a strong odor. It did get yeast nutrient at the same time the yeast was pitched.

The third batch, started just a couple of days ago, got nutrient at the time the yeast was pitched. I am seeing some activity in it now.

I am also moving two of the batches to a colder location. Partly out of necessity and partly because I have heard that a slow fermentation is "better" than a fast one.

Now I just need to get some more juice and start a fourth batch. I think I may try the EC-118 yeast since I haven't used that yet. I am also considering putting some sugar in it to see if I can push up the alcohol level.

This brewing stuff is addictive.

 

[z-bob]

This brewing stuff is addictive.

Yes it is. You can learn a lot from fermenting cheap pasteurized apple juice to get your process down for the expensive and/or hard to get cider apples, and figure out which couple of yeast varieties you like best. Apply that knowledge to the cider apples, pears, etc, and learn a whole new set of skills (problems to overcome) dealing with them. You kind of jumped right into the deep end of the pool

I've done the EC-1118 and extra sugar thing, and I didn't much care for it. There wasn't any "apple" left in the final product. I will try 1118 again someday, but with little-or-no sugar and no yeast nutrient to see how it does with just apple.

 

[Nick Z]

I actually bought some Granny Smith apples today for juicing. They were at the second hand produce store and the apples are perfectly fine. They had a bunch of red delicious as well but I never much cared for those apples.

I plan to juice the grannies and freeze the juice. I already got a gallon of pear juice and froze it. And I am close to a quart of quince juice which will also be frozen. I figure I can yank these things out of the freezer on a whim and go to town.

I've heard the Knudsen stuff isn't too bad and while it isn't cheap it doesn't cost as much as orchard cider. I'm thinking of picking some of that up. I should probably wait for my hydrometer first.

Is there a reason not to use yeast nutrient?

And what the hell is "yeast energizer"? Yeast nutrient I get. But "yeast energizer" sounds like a marketing ploy along with stuff like "Ferm go".

 

[z-bob]

Is there a reason not to use yeast nutrient?

And what the hell is "yeast energizer"? Yeast nutrient I get. But "yeast energizer" sounds like a marketing ploy along with stuff like "Ferm go".

Usually you need yeast nutrient. I want to try EC-1118 without it just to slow it down a little; when I tried it before with nutrient and some sugar it fermented so vigorously and so completely there was nothing left of the apple. Without any nutrients it might run out of steam while there's still some taste left. Or not scrub all the volatiles out and send the up the air lock.

Yeast energizer is (I think) yeast nutrient plus some vitamins and yeast hulls (dead yeast).

 

[RPh_Guy]

Would it be beneficial to toss a little more yeast or yeast nutrient in?

Properly rehydrated yeast may be a good idea, not nutrient.

The cider I just racked had that rotten egg smell I have read about. When I started that one I didn't have any yeast nutrient but I think I added some later when it came in the mail

The odor is hydrogen sulfide. The yeast produce it when there is inadequate nitrogen and/or other stressful conditions.

I am also moving two of the batches to a colder location. Partly out of necessity and partly because I have heard that a slow fermentation is "better" than a fast one.

The rate of volitization of aromatic compounds increases with temperature. Therefore colder fermentation will retain more apple flavor. It's not dependent on "speed".

Now I just need to get some more juice and start a fourth batch. I think I may try the EC-118 yeast since I haven't used that yet. I am also considering putting some sugar in it to see if I can push up the alcohol level.

The Red Star yeast you used was Premier Cuvee, right? That's likely the same strain as EC-1118.
It's currently my favorite strain. It's neutral, well-behaved, and handles cold temperature very well.

Added sugar...
Cider naturally falls in the range of 6-7% ABV. That's not enough?
I recommend against adding sugar. Sugar reduces the apple flavor and increases dryness, gross.
If you want something sweet and appley that will knock you on your ass, I recommend making ice cider or sweetened applejack. My faux ice cider is 13.5% ABV and delicious.

Is there a reason not to use yeast nutrient?

If you don't have proper temperature control, yeast nutrient will cause an aggressive fermentation, which will increase the temperature and cause loss of apple flavor.
If you do control the temperature then there's no downside to nutrient.

"Energizer" is just a marketing term. Yeast need nitrogen and trace minerals.

Go-Ferm is a rehydration nutrient that also provides zinc, a necessary trace mineral. I highly recommend it, along with Fermaid O.

 

[Nick Z]

Thank you for your reply. Yes, the Red Star Yeast is Premier Cuvee. I just took a second look at the packet today.

I was kind of hoping to push a small batch into apple wine territory. Just to try it out. I'm curious to try different things and see how they taste and turn out.

I know what applejack is but the winters around here don't get cold enough for that. And I don't have any finished cider to use freeze distillation/concentration on.

I'm not familiar with ice cider? Could you please elaborate?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Traditionally ice cider is made by pressing frozen apples, which concentrates the sugars, acid, tannins, and aromatics.

However you certainly can produce ice cider by freeze concentrating the juice after pressing (which actually gives better flavor than pressing frozen apples), or you may use frozen apple juice concentrate (FAJC).

I use FAJC for my faux ice cider. I dilute with RO water to OG 1.140 and use properly Go-Ferm rehydrated R-HST yeast at 2g/gal and ferment around 50-60°F. It'll finish around 1.060 crystal clear and dessert sweet, but balanced by acidity and alcohol so as not to be overly cloying like unfermented juice.
The cheapo Great Value FAJC is surprisingly good, but unfortunately the apple flavor and gravity varies between different lots. The Polish juice had a really nice spicy flavor.

 

[Nick Z]

RO water?

Can anyone recommend a frozen apple juice concentrate that has good flavor? All I can find is Old Orchard and Tree Top.

I will probably need to use some of this at some point. I couldn't find frozen pear juice concentrate so I'll have to top off the pear with store bought pear juice.

 

[RPh_Guy]

RO = reverse osmosis purified, which removes all the minerals.

I think Great Value is rebranded Old Orchard, so that's what I would suggest, although I'm sure Tree Top is probably also fine since a number of recipes here use it.

 

[Nick Z]

Update on the ciders in progress:

Two batches are in secondary. I think there is still some fermentation going on, even though the airlocks aren't bubbling. I'm going to take hydrometer readings today.

One batch (Whole Foods apple juice) is still in primary but I think is winding down. I will probably rack it to secondary in a week or so.

The half gallon bartlett pear is.... weird. There is an enormous amount of lees. 1/3 to ½ of the jug is lees. The perry itself is clearing up very nicely. It's much clearer than any of the others. I think there is still some fermentation going on. I don't know whether there is just a lot of lees or if the lees aren't compacted. I'm unsure whether I should leave it alone for a while or cold crash it (it would be my first time cold crashing).

The cyser is bubbling away. As per the recipe instructions I fed it yeast nutrient and energizer twice. I'm not sure if I should feed it a third time.

A gallon of Oregon grape/huckleberry/blackberry wine finally started fermenting.

And I picked up a bunch of Newtown Pippin apples at a place called Morrow Brothers (aka Everyday Deals) near me. I have been juicing them but their juice yield has been pretty bad. Not nearly as bad as pears but still not great. The granny smith apples gave an excellent yield.

So this leads me to a question... does pectic enzyme / pectinase work at refrigerator temperatures?

I took the squeezed pulp and mixed in some pectic enzyme and let it sit at room temperature overnight. And it worked. I saw a lot more juice become free. Unfortunately it started to wild ferment and I had to dump it. The reason I left it at room temp was that I read that the optimum temperature for pectinase was fairly warm. And that it takes several hours to break down the pectin and release the juice.

So I'm between a rock and a hard place. The fridge will slow down wild fermentation long enough for me to get some juice. But if the pectinase won't work at fridge temperatures there won't be any juice to get.

I also froze and and now unthawing some squeezed pulp to see if that will release more juice.

I wouldn't bother juicing by hand like this except I read that Newtown Pippin is good for cider and the apples were only thirty nine cents a pound. That's the closest I'm going to get to cheap cider apples anytime soon.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Unfortunately it started to wild ferment and I had to dump it.

1. There's no reason to fear wild microbes! They make some really delicious wine!!
You do NOT need to to overboard with sanitation, worrying about pasteurizing your additives or soaking in vodka, etc.

2. If you want to use commercial yeast and inhibit the wild microbes, standard procedure works perfectly fine:
Add sulfite.
Wait 12 hours.
Add pectinase.
Wait 12 hours.
Aerate and pitch.

 

[Nick Z]

The issue was that it wasn't juice doing wild ferment. In that case I might have bottled it and put on an airlock and seen what happened. This was a bunch of pulp that was expanding and rising like bread dough. I considered squeezing it and hitting it with sulfites but if the fermentation had already started the results would be... unpredictable.

When using non pasteurized juice I do use the schedule you laid out.

But this was several pounds of partially juiced pulp. I don't know if I even can whack it with campden tablets or how much to use. With juice I have the guideline of one campden tablet per gallon, stick a coffee filter on the jug and wait for the sulfur to dissipate out of the juice in a day or so. With a huge batch of goopy pulp... I don't know what to do. Especially considering it took a day to amass that much pulp.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Remember wine has been made for thousands of years and there's no need to reinvent the wheel.

One technique coming used (especially for red wine) is to ferment the crushed fruit, and THEN press it to maximize juice extraction.
For example:


If you're going the route of pressing before fermentation, the pulp is useless for the rest of the winemaking process. You need to work on your extraction technique if you feel that there is too much juice left with the solids. As I mentioned, pureeing will decrease your ability to extract the juice.

This was a bunch of pulp that was expanding and rising like bread dough. I considered squeezing it and hitting it with sulfites but if the fermentation had already started the results would be... unpredictable.

When fermentation is in progress I agree it's not good to add sulfite, but why dump it??
You could let it wild ferment or just add whatever yeast you want at that point. Commercial wine yeast will dominate the wild microbes, especially if you properly rehydrate it.

Since you didn't protect the pulp from oxygen, the wild microbes were helping by consuming the oxygen.

 

[Nick Z]

I didn't know you could ferment apple pulp. I was under the impression that fermentation was only done after the juice was extracted?

In retrospect I kind of wish I had done juice extraction and dumped the juice into something to wild ferment and see what happens. But I thought wild ferments were something for advanced cider makers. Not total newbies like myself.

I did read something about how fermentation with wine grapes is started with the whole (crushed) fruit. But I've never even seen a wine grape before. I hope to next year.

 

[z-bob]

What yeast are you using? You might consider K1V-1116 where you are fermenting crushed fruit; it will kill all the wild yeasts. (there are other wine yeasts that will do that too, K1V is just one that I know about, and its esters should go good with pears or apples)

 

[RPh_Guy]

I didn't know you could ferment apple pulp.

Sounds like you already observed that happening.
Allowing cider to ferment on the pomace (apple pulp) without any pressing isn't practical most of the time because apples are not as juicy, but there's nothing wrong with the concept. I have heard of home cider makers adding some of the pressed pomace to the cider for a couple days of fermentation, but that's not necessary or common.

Maceration -- leaving the crushed apples to rest for at least a few hours before pressing -- is considered a good practice for making cider, however. That has more to do with oxygen and natural pectinase activity.

I thought wild ferments were something for advanced cider makers.

The main concern with wild fermentation is that you need to protect the the cider from oxygen once fermentation completes. Otherwise it's very newbie friendly.

 

[Nick Z]

At this point I wasn't using any yeast. I was letting the pulp hang out at room temperature while pectinase released the juice. And it worked too. There was substantially more juice after sitting with pectinase for a bit. But by the time that had happened the pulp had started to ferment. And was rising, like bread dough, out of the pot it was in and spilling all over the floor. At that point I decided to feed it to the compost heap.

I haven't tried the 1116 yet. I may use that next.

I also froze some of the apple pieces and then just took them out of the freezer. I've heard this can help with getting more juice out of the apples.