First time with liquid yeast, should i use a starter?

[Hophead138]

Whats the purpose of using a starter and can i use it with a "smack pack"? Also what is th epitching rate and how can i figure out my yeast's pitching rate?

 

[BBL_Brewer]

You definitely want to make a starter, and yes you can pitch a smack pack strait into some starter wort. As for pitching rate, use Mr. Malty. It will help you determine your pitching rate and how big of a starter to make. Here's the link.
http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

 

[Golddiggie]

Even Wyeast says to use a starter for any batch with an OG above 1.060. Many of us have lowered the bar on that to pretty much any OG you'll brew. Mr. Malty is a sound guide for how much of a starter you should make. I'm finding that I'm making 2-3L starters for most of my brews, currently. With that, I'm reaping the benefits of shorter lag phase times, and less stressed yeast. Using a stir plate, you can get a starter to completion in under 24 hours. I highly recommend getting/making one if you're going to use starters even occasionally.

Stir plates and starters also really help when the yeast isn't ultra-fresh. I used a smack pack from June on Friday. A ~24 hour starter was all it took (well, plus using pure O2, but that's another thread) to get the lag phase to under 12 hours. Lots of foam coming out of the blow-off bottle, so my yeast was very happy.

 

[Revvy]

The biggest reason I suggest folks make a starter is if you make one you'll have peace of mind. It's especially important if you have questionable situation happenning with your yeast, like not being sure the yeast arrived healthy.

And you won't be starting an "is my yeast dead" thread in a couple of days.

Making a starter first insures that your yeast is still alive and viable before you dump it in your beer. You will be less likely to start one of those "is my yeast dead?" threads that are on here every day.

You will also ensure that you have enough yeast usually the tubes and smack packs are a lot less yeast that you really should use for healthy fermentation.

Making a starter also usually means your beer will take off sooner, because the first thing that the little buggers do in the presence of wort (whether in a flask or in a fermenter) is have an orgy to reproduce enough cells to do the job...So it won't take such a long time in the fermenter since they started doing it in the flask.

Additionally it is better for the yeast to consume and reproduce incrementally rather than just dumping them into the fermenter...The yeast will be less stressed out than if you just dump them in.

Stressed out yeast can lead to a lot of off flavors...maybe even (though rare) the dreaded autolysis....Or the curse of 1.030....getting a stuck fermentation because the yeast have bit the dust.

So making a starter proves your yeast is still healthy, allows you to grow enough yeast to do the job, cuts down on lag time, and ensures that you will not get off flavors or stuck ferementations from stressed out yeast.

Also has to do with the actual pitch rates of the smack packs and tubes, and has to do with the data that Jamil Z has on his mr malty website.

I'll quote some of it, but really you should look at the stuff there;

http://www.mrmalty.com/pitching.php

Ales & Lagers

The general consensus on pitching rates is that you want to pitch around 1 million cells of viable yeast, for every milliliter of wort, for every degree plato. A little less for an ale, a little more for a lager. George Fix states about 1.5 million for a lager and 0.75 million for an ale in his book, An Analysis of Brewing Techniques. Other literature cites a slightly higher amount. I'm going with Fix's numbers and that is what the pitching calculator uses.
The Math

If you're curious, here is the simple math to calculate the number of cells needed. For an ale, you want to pitch around 0.75 million cells of viable yeast (0.75 million for an ale, 1.5 million for a lager), for every milliliter of wort, for every degree plato.

(0.75 million) X (milliliters of wort) X (degrees Plato of the wort)

* There is about 3785 milliliters in a gallon. There are about 20,000 milliliters in 5.25 gallons.

* A degree Plato is about 1.004 of original gravity. Just divide the OG by 4 to get Plato (e.g., 1.048 is 12 degrees Plato).

So, for a 1.048 wort pitching into 5.25 gallons you need about 180 billion cells.

(750,000) X (20,000) X (12) = 180,000,000,000

As an easy to remember rough estimate, you need about 15 billion cells for each degree Plato or about 4 billion cells for each point of OG when pitching into a little over 5 gallons of wort. If you want a quick way of doing a back of the envelope estimate, that is really close to 0.75 billion cells for each point of gravity per gallon of wort. Double that to 1.5 billion for a lager.
Pitching From Tubes, Packs, or Dry Yeast

Both White Labs and Wyeast make fantastic products and you can't go wrong with either one. There are differences between their strains and each brand has pluses and minuses yet neither is better than the other across the board. Use the brand your local homebrew shop carries, if you need a way to decide.

A White Labs tube has between 70 and 120 billion cells of 100% viable yeast, depending on the yeast strain. Some cells are much larger than others and there are more or less per ml based on size. (The information on the White Labs web site stating 30 to 50 billion cells is out of date.) We can just assume there are around 100 billion very healthy yeast. You would need 2 tubes if you were pitching directly into 5.5 gallons of 1.048 wort to get the proper cell counts.

A Wyeast Activator pack (the really big ones) and the pitchable tubes have an average of 100 billion cells of 100% viable yeast. The smaller packs are around 15-18 billion cells. You would need 2 of the large packs if you were pitching directly into 5.5 gallons of 1.048 wort to get the proper cell counts. For the small packs, you'd need eleven of them!

But to make it easier he has a great pitch rate calculator http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

And according to his numbers on his calculator, really any beer above 1.020, you should be making a starter for.

Me personally when I use liquid yeast I just make a starter. I may not be as anal as some brewers and makes sure that I have the exact cellcount for whatever gravity beer I am making, but I do make one for the above reasons I mentioned, namely peace of mid, and a reduction in lag time.

Seriously, that's one way to insure you have clean tasting beer, not to stress out or underpitch your yeast. You may find the "bothering" to make a starter will make even the less than best kit beer come out tasting great.

 

[Hophead138]

excellent advise thanks guys

 

[homebrewedipa]

Wow, I'm pretty surprised these responses. Yeah, sure, starters are great for any situation, and a requirement for high gravity wort (above, say 1.060 or so), but c'mon, for your average 1.050 pale ale or what-have-you, a smack-pack on it's own is perfectly fine, especially for a new or amateur brewer. There's not even concern for peace-of-mind since if a smack-pack swells up it's a pretty good indication your yeast is viable.

Don't get me wrong, if you like spending the time and energy (and money buying a stir-plate, etc) then yeah, by all means, make a starter for every batch you brew (or if you start washing and reusing yeast). But if not, a smack-pack alone will suffice in most situations.

 

[Revvy]

There's not even concern for peace-of-mind since if a smack-pack swells up it's a pretty good indication your yeast is viable.

Don't get me wrong, if you like spending the time and energy (and money buying a stir-plate, etc) then yeah, by all means, make a starter for every batch you brew (or if you start washing and reusing yeast). But if not, a smack-pack alone will suffice in most situations.

So in you're "logic" then if the pac doesn't swell then you should throw the yeast away because OBVIOUSLY it's not working?

*Ahem*

From the horse's mouth.

From the Wyeast FAQ website:

3. Does the package need to be fully swollen before pitching?

No, The package can be pitched before activating, or at anytime during the activation process. The activation process "jump starts" the culture's metabolism, minimizing the lag phase.

Almost daily we get 2-3 new brewers who "panic" because they use your method, and guess what, OFTEN the pac doesn't swell, and the yeast is perfectly viable as proven with a starter. I had one a couple weeks back, but it didn't matter, because I was making a starter.

Also, if you're playing with mr malty, the very first gravity it actually says you need to use more than a single smackpack/vial on is for 1.030, it doesn't show that large of an increase in cellcount but it does show one, that's why I say if your beer is above 1.020 to go ahead an do it.

I wouldn't be surprised by our reaction on here, most of us believe in brewing properly.....

 

[houndsbreath]

I make starters on my larger brews (OG >1060) with good results = awesome attenuation and really clean yeast profiles. BUT I've also had success pitching Smack Packs straight onto the wort, the only difference a noticeabley slower start time.

 

[homebrewedipa]

So in you're "logic" then if the pac doesn't swell then you should throw the yeast away because OBVIOUSLY it's not working?

*Ahem*

....

I wouldn't be surprised by our reaction on here, most of us believe in brewing properly.....

No, my "logic" is that if it DOES swell, the yeast are OBVIOUSLY viable. Yeah, I know every once in a while you may get a pack that doesn't swell, but still has viable yeast; I've NEVER had that happen, but I recognize that it does happen. Look, I'm not going to argue with Revvy, but a blanket response from everyone saying "you must absolutely use a starter every time you brew" is stupid. Most beginner and amateur brewers don't absolutely need a starter to brew "properly". Sure, if you want to be guaranteed your yeast are viable and you're pitching the exact perfect rate, then yeah, by all means, make a starter. But if you've only brewed a couple times or you're still trying to conquer other beginner skills, then **** it, use a smack pack and skip the starter

 

[Revvy]

But if you've only brewed a couple times or you're still trying to conquer other beginner skills, then **** it, use a smack pack and skip the starter

But we don't make it a point around here of giving bad brewing advice....and that is pretty crappy advice, ESPECIALLY to a new brewer.

We've all showed you that according to Jamil, the required amount of yeast in tubes and smackpacks is BELOW the necessary pitch rate for just about every beer unless it's a 1.020 sipper.

So just about every beer made without making a starter results in underpitiching to one degree or another. And we know that underpitching leads to stressed yeast, and stressed yeast leads to off flavors. Or stuck fermentation.

And like we also said, most new brewers are also scared ****less that if they even look at their beer wrong the yeast is going to die, so by making a starter it has proved to them that their yeast is working, and healthy.

So when their pack didn't inflate, (which it doesn't often) or their airlock doesn't bubble (which it also doesn't quite often for folks) we can point to their starter as proof that the yeast was very alive.

So excuse me if we will continue to give GOOD advice, like making blanket pronouncements that it is a good idea to make a starter with any liquid yeast, and call out advice like yours as pretty crappy....

The only reason not to make a starter with liquid yeast is sheer laziness.

 

[Golddiggie]

In my experience, if the smack pack is under a month old, it will swell within a few hours of being smacked (at the right temperature range. If the pack is older, you'll be well served making even a small starter a day or two ahead of time. The majority of my batches have an OG north of 1.060 so I make starters.

As for the lame excuse oc someone only having made a few batches as a reason to not use a starter. It is lame. IMO you'll be well served learning how to make a starter eay on. I did it for my third batch, ever. Since then there have only been a few times I've not made a starter. One of those times I regretted it. Even with washed yeast its a sound idea to make a starter.

I might not make a starter for a brew with an OG under 1.040 when the yeast is under a week old. But since its so freaking easy to make a starter, I probably will.

BTW, having a stir plate makes it SOO much easier to make/use starters. Typically finished within 24 hours that way. :rockin:

 

[Revvy]

As for the lame excuse oc someone only having made a few batches as a reason to not use a starter. It is lame. IMO you'll be well served learning how to make a starter eay on. I did it for my third batch, ever. Since then there have only been a few times I've not made a starter. One of those times I regretted it. Even with washed yeast its a sound idea to make a starter.

+1,000

I think most folks want to make great beer from day one. And if they knew about things like making starters, or using a hydrometer, or proper temp control, they would do it from day one. And many do, they come here first where the most recent info is, and start doing it right with their first batch.

But most folks don't come here until they've tasted their too young, too hot and too underpitched beer and post that their beer tastes like crap, THEN we teach them about all those little things that improve their beer.

And most of them wish they had had that info from the beginning.

I think dissuading a new brewer from doing the small things that make the difference between good and great beer, because he's "too new", is pretty silly.

Yeah sure you can dump your yeast in or throw a bunch of ingredients willy nilly into a fermenter without understanding about what goes into a recipe, or letting your ambient temp creep to the 80's, and your beer may be adequate. But I think most folks, from day one, don't want mediocre.

I think it's awesome that Hophead wants information on making starters, it proves he probably cares about making good beer.

 

[Monstar]

Yeah sure you can dump your yeast in or throw a bunch of ingredients willy nilly into a fermenter without understanding about what goes into a recipe, or letting your ambient temp creep to the 80's, and your beer may be adequate. But I think most folks, from day one, don't want mediocre.

Exactly. Preach it.

 

[Monstar]

And to the OP, if you don't like starters, you can always use dry yeast.

 

[Taypo]

+1,000
I think most folks want to make great beer from day one. And if they knew about things like making starters, or using a hydrometer, or proper temp control, they would do it from day one. And many do, they come here first where the most recent info is, and start doing it right with their first batch.

But most folks don't come here until they've tasted their too young, too hot and too underpitched beer and post that their beer tastes like crap, THEN we teach them about all those little things that improve their beer.

THIS. Very well said

Unfortunately, I came here first and ignored most of what I read. Then came back after an "inadequate" beer to learn how to do it right.

 

[elvestinkle]

My group has been brewing for a year now, and we're only just starting to see the need for a starter. So far the only "stuck" fermentations we've encountered are with the darker beers, and the FG has only been a few points above the expected range (1.020 instead of 1.014). We're going to move to a starter system so we can rule out problems in the mash (we have ridiculously soft water).