First time with any water adjustment

[ajdelange]

whats the lowest alkalinity you would go and why.

The lowest I would go is 2.5 ppm as CaCO3. That's kind of a wise-ass answer though because 2.5 is the alkalinity of distilled water. What I mean is that the best alkalinity is no alkalinity. All alkalinity can do is raise mash pH and that's seldom a good thing. I have said many times that of all the rules of thumb in brewing the only one that really seems to stand is "alkalinity - bad". The exception would be where lots of dark and roasted malts are being used and you need to raise pH somewhat but for light beers you usually want negative alkalinity, i.e. acid. I'm not a big stout brewer but I do keep an Irish stout on tap and never add alkalinity to the water when I brew it.

I read that you have a different out look on the Sulfate to Chloride ratio subject. Can you talk about that a bit more? Im curious about this because since i read about how you can get the ****s from having 300ppm sulfate beer water I wanted to make water profile with like 100ppm sulfate and 20ppm chloride.(cuz im afraid if i decide to binge drink i dont want to get sick) Anyways What effects would the low level of chloride have on my beer?

My thinking was set out in some detail in #18 of this thread. In my experience more sulfate has always meant more harshness and I don't like that. Neither, according to the sources I identified in #18, do taste panels even in the U.K. where high sulfate beers are common (or were - I doubt modern Bass Ale is brewed with as much sulfate as it was in the days when it was brewed in Burton. I have gone to considerable trouble and expense to eliminate sulfate from all my brewing liquors and I like the results. But I'm well aware that there may be people who like what sulfate does to beer and I encourage them to be ruled by their palates.

I think SO4 will have the effect you speak of when coupled with magnesium (effectively dissolved epsom salts). I'm not sure it will do that by itself.

 

[winvarin]

Wow. This beer is taking up a lot of my free time and I haven't even put a single piece of grain in the mill. I think I am going with option 2 from your list above. But I have a couple more questions, one a stupid question. The others, hopefully not so much:

1. When you speak of DI or deionized water, is that the same as "distilled"? I hope so, because I have been using the terms interchangeably in my head through our conversation.

2. We're still talking about mash water only here. Just to confirm, right?

3. Why are you suggesting 100% DI water and only a calcium chloride ion addition for my mash in option 1? I get that difference between options 1 and 2. When you go with the DI water dilution and the same amount of CaCl in option 2, you're adding more acidulated malt because the pH of my tap water is higher than that of DI water. It also has the alkalinity issue so I am assuming that the additional acidulated will also help with that.

But won't using all DI water in my mash starve it of some of the beneficial ions that my water does contain? You lose what calcium I already would add from the one part of my tap water that I'd use in a blend. Plus the amounts of sodium, chloride, etc. that are contained in my tap water; even if they are a bit low. Does the alkalinity brought in by my water pose such a problem that an all DI mash water is preferable?

4. As far as percentages of acidulated, I am using rice hulls to aid with sparging due to the large amount of wheat and rye in this grist. Should I calculate the 1# of rice hulls when figuring out how much acidulated to use? Or should I only look at the actual grains (2-row, wheat, rye) when figuring my percentage?

5. Where will you be for my next beer? I feel like much of our discussion has been centered around this beer, it's low hop schedule and light body. I am targeting a deep red IPA, or a stout for my next beer. Are we going to have to have this discussion all over again?

 

[ajdelange]

Wow. This beer is taking up a lot of my free time and I haven't even put a single piece of grain in the mill. I think I am going with option 2 from your list above. But I have a couple more questions, one a stupid question. The others, hopefully not so much:

Whenever someone mentions stupid questions I recall the time the company president came down from Boston for the annual pep talk and asked for questions at the end. After an awkward silence he said people are often afraid to ask questions because they think they are stupid questions. He reached into his suit coat pocket and pulled out a crisp new $100 bill which he held aloft and said he'd give to anyone who asked a stupid question. The Muse kissed me on the spot (she usually waits about half an hour) and I shouted out "Is that real?". His immediate response: "That's a good question!"

1. When you speak of DI or deionized water, is that the same as "distilled"? I hope so, because I have been using the terms interchangeably in my head through our conversation.

Not strictly speaking, but in general RO water is low enough in ions that it can be considered ion free for the purpose of these calculations. My RO unit produces water with TDS of from 3-5 ppm. The water is quite carbonate hard where you live so RO might actually contain quite a bit more but still that shouldn't throw the calculations off much. You won't be measuring out salts with an analytical balance after drying in an oven and cooling in a dessicator nor will you be measuring fluid volumes at precisely 20 °C with Class A glassware so a few percent here and there don't really matter.

2. We're still talking about mash water only here. Just to confirm, right?

In my previous post I was talking about 4.5 gal of water which is, I believe, what you intend to mash with. I always treat the whole volume of water (mash, sparge, makeup....) the same. The mash tun is the most important but using alkaline water in the sparge sucks up acid faster than decarbonated water so that the pH at which tannin extraction starts is reached faster. High alkalinity makeup water absorbs acid in the kettle resulting in higher cast out pH

3. Why are you suggesting 100% DI water and only a calcium chloride ion addition for my mash in option 1? I get that difference between options 1 and 2. When you go with the DI water dilution and the same amount of CaCl in option 2, you're adding more acidulated malt because the pH of my tap water is higher than that of DI water. It also has the alkalinity issue so I am assuming that the additional acidulated will also help with that.

Yes, I think you've got it. Pure DI water = no alkalinity (other than the intrinsic 2.5 ppm as CaCO3 of distilled water) so none of the acid in the Sauermalz is required for combatting water alkalinity and you should be able to get by with less. With the blend you will need some extra sauermalz to combat the appreciable alkalinity remaining in even the diluted water.

But won't using all DI water in my mash starve it of some of the beneficial ions that my water does contain? You lose what calcium I already would add from the one part of my tap water that I'd use in a blend. Plus the amounts of sodium, chloride, etc. that are contained in my tap water; even if they are a bit low. Does the alkalinity brought in by my water pose such a problem that an all DI mash water is preferable?

In a nutshell, yes. To get that under control you'd need so much RO/DI water that you might as well go the whole 9 yards with it. Some, including me, keep 10% or so tap water in the blend for the reasons you have mentioned. But the CaCl2 supplement will supply plenty of calcium and chloride. Malt is quite rich in minerals - rich enough that you don't have to worry about supplementing them if you use even distilled water.

4. As far as percentages of acidulated, I am using rice hulls to aid with sparging due to the large amount of wheat and rye in this grist. Should I calculate the 1# of rice hulls when figuring out how much acidulated to use? Or should I only look at the actual grains (2-row, wheat, rye) when figuring my percentage?

Only the actual grains. The rice hulls are pretty much not there chemically speaking. All they do is take up space and that's what we want them for.

5. Where will you be for my next beer?

Right here, gods willin' and the creek don't rise.

I feel like much of our discussion has been centered around this beer, it's low hop schedule and light body. I am targeting a deep red IPA, or a stout for my next beer. Are we going to have to have this discussion all over again?

The principles are the same but of course there are variations which depend on style. In a IPA you will, for authenticity, probably want sulfate. But you should probably try it without as well. Test panels in the UK apparently give higher scores to, presumably, British beers brewed with lower sulfate. With the stout the roast barley will provide much, if not all, the needed acid so that sauermalz won't be required.

 

[winvarin]

Not strictly speaking, but in general RO water is low enough in ions that it can be considered ion free for the purpose of these calculations.

I am using store bought distilled water for my blend.

In my previous post I was talking about 4.5 gal of water which is, I believe, what you intend to mash with. I always treat the whole volume of water (mash, sparge, makeup....) the same. The mash tun is the most important but using alkaline water in the sparge sucks up acid faster than decarbonated water so that the pH at which tannin extraction starts is reached faster. High alkalinity makeup water absorbs acid in the kettle resulting in higher cast out pH

See above. I have enough distilled on hand to do 2:1 in my mash and 1:1 in my sparge. My plan is to have 6 gallons of sparge water on hand. I picked up the CaCl at lunchtime. Since my ratio would be different on the sparge and the total volume would be higher, how much CaCl would you recommend?

My wild guess would be 2.9 to 3 grams. I got this by taking your original suggestion for 2 grams to 4.5 gallons and adjusting it upwards by 25% (figuring that would give me the same ratio of calcium and chloride at 6 gallons). That gave me 2.5 grams. I then increased that by 16%, the approximate difference between a 1:1 dilution (50%) and a 2:1 (66.6%) dilution. If my math has gone astray, I think it is probably here.

If I am completely off base (or even if I am not) how are you calculating the amount needed?

Worst case, I can always stop by the store and pick up another gallon of distilled water and dilute my sparge water at 2:1 as well. That should make the 2.5 g more accurate (although a bit problematic as my scale only measures in full gram increments)

Yes, I think you've got it. Pure DI water = no alkalinity (other than the intrinsic 2.5 ppm as CaCO3 of distilled water) so none of the acid in the Sauermalz is required for combatting water alkalinity and you should be able to get by with less. With the blend you will need some extra sauermalz to combat the appreciable alkalinity remaining in even the diluted water.

I picked up 5.75 ounces of saurmalz at lunch as well. That's approximately 3% of my grist weight (12.25 lb grains, 1 lb rice hulls. I bought the sauermalz based on 3% of 12.25). I tasted a bit of it. It was a lot more acidic than even I was prepared for. Are you sure 3% is appropriate? I don't want to have that strong a "tang" come through in the beer.

The principles are the same but of course there are variations which depend on style. In a IPA you will, for authenticity, probably want sulfate. But you should probably try it without as well. Test panels in the UK apparently give higher scores to, presumably, British beers brewed with lower sulfate. With the stout the roast barley will provide much, if not all, the needed acid so that sauermalz won't be required.

This is an add on to my question about how you are getting the calculations that you are providing me. Do you have your own spreadsheet that you are working from? I believe you mentioned in an earlier post that you provide instruction to your local club and had prepared some materials for that. Would you be willing to share, and offline of course, help me start learning to use some of the tools you use in order to at least get in the ballpark on my own? It would certainly shorten the thread the next time out.

 

[ajdelange]

With respect to the sparge water: all you are trying to do is remove alkalinity so only the dilution is really needed so I'd vote for getting the extra DI water. As calcium is good for many things you might want to add 2 or 3 grams to the 6 gallons. It really doesn't matter that much which at this point. Remember that calcium is not offsetting alkalinity here. It's just a matter of having some calcium in the kettle for bright runoff, etc.

On the sauermalz: you can overdo it but you shouldn't at 3%. If you are nervous about that start at 2%. It definitely does have a flavor influence on beer but not by increasing sourness unless appreciably more than 3% is used. Instead it adds subtle malt complexity which really improves lagers where it tends to be used most (commercially).

I do have a spreadsheet that I use for all my calculations. I call it the NUBWS - Nearly Universal Brewing Water Spreadsheet because it does a lot of stuff but not everything. It does not calculate an SRM range from RA for example. You can get it at www.wetnewf.org which also has articles on brewing water chemistry, slides from water workshops and the audio from the last one I did.

Brace yourself for a bit of a shock when you see the spreadsheet. The hard part of brewing water chemistry is the acid/base chemistry of the bicarbonate system and most of the complexity of the spreadsheet devolves from that. There is a Users Manual for it which you will really need to get an idea as how to use it. That's at the site too. The current edition of the User's Manual probably doesn't match the current edition of the spreadsheet so if something isn't in exactly the cell the manual says it should be just look at nearby cells and you should find it.

 

[winvarin]

Brew day is here. Did a 2:1 mix in my sparge water. I wound up using 4 oz. of acid malt (about 2.5% mol. And 2 g of CaCl. My pH test strip appears to register darker than what it says is 4.6 and lighter than what it says is 5.0. If they read about 0.3 low like you say. that puts me probably around 5.1 mash pH. So pretty close for what we were estimating.

As a side note, I use infusion mash. I have been having a temp problem and consistently over/undershooting my mash temps. I tried something I saw in the July/Aug BYO and came within .2 F of where I was shooting.

 

[winvarin]

I'll call it a success. Still only hit about 70% efficiency. However, I was batch sparging for the first time and I boiled off a little more water than I expected. I topped up with about 1/2 gallon of distilled after my boil and my OG was right at what I'd anticipated for 70%.

 

[winvarin]

Not that the batch sparge had anything to do with my boil rate.

 

[ajdelange]

Don't forget to update us when it's ready to drink.

 

[winvarin]

Don't forget to update us when it's ready to drink.

Kegged the batch over the weekend. It had not dried as much as I'd hoped after 2 weeks so I topped up with a re-hydrated packet of S-05. By the end of week 3, I was actually a couple of points below where I had anticipated, so I kegged it.

As is my practice, I refrigerate the hydrometer sample for 10 min or so after taking my final gravity reading, then take it out for a taste.

ajdelange, I believe you have hit on my problem. Prior to this batch, I had made all beers (light/dark color; light/heavy body; malty or bitter) with my largely untreated, highly-alkaline tap water. I would toss the occasional teaspoon or 2 of gypsum in a dark or bitter beer because that's what I was supposed to do.

But my water was always undiluted so I am not sure that I was ever getting my alkalinity down to an acceptable level. And I was never putting gypsum in my mash water, so I am not sure if I was even bringing down the RA sufficiently on my dark beers.

This beer, fresh from the fermenter (3 weeks total) tasted superb. The flavors were much more bright. I could pick up layers of citrus from my hops, distinct grainy overtones from the wheat and rye, and could even isolate the lighter "hefe" profile of the WLP320.

Thanks for all your help aj. I look forward to trying my Pliny clone (double IPA and the second beer I've brewed since you and I started talking). It may be a bit higher in sulfates than you would normally recommend. But it got my CA to 68 (sulfate was a little shy of 60) and the RA was at 24. I added a couple of ounces of acidulated malt for good measure.

On brew day my mash strips (no, I've not yet invested in a pH meter) showed me between 4.8 and 5.0 (after adjusting for the fact that as you say, they can read up to .3 low).

I did read in the most recent BYO (Sept 2010), an article from a pro brewer, offering some general rules of thumb on water chemistry. To sum up his advice:
- Get your RA below 50 by any means available, but most often he recommends dilution because of its simplicity.
- Get your calcium near or above 50 by (CaCl additions for malty beers and gypsum additions for bitter beers).

Once you take those 2 basic steps, he suggests making that your "basic" brewing water. From that he then recommends adjusting your other additions either to taste or to style if you're targeting water from a specific region or brewery.

It sounds like a broad simplification of your advice; but based on our discussions, I can't see anything with which I would disagree. I think I am ready to tackle some of the additional reading you recommend.

 

[ajdelange]

.... tasted superb. The flavors were much more bright....

I'm always delighted when theory and practice converge and when someone gets a good result. I really like the "bright flavors" description. I think that's spot on!

 

[winvarin]

I have a follow up question about this beer and whether one of the qualities of it may be due to the water adjustment made. I am noticing a distinct sour "twang" to it. It's not at all unpleasant. But I am curious as to whether one of the pH lowering modifications we made is contributing to this flavor. Here is the basic recipe:

2 row - 4#
pilsner - 1.75#
Rye malt - 3.25#
wheat malt - 3.5#
acidulated malt - 4 ounces

I hopped with a total of 26 IBUs of Amarillo and Simcoe

I used 2:1 dilution of my mash and sparge water. And I used 4 total grams of CaCl (2 in the mash and 2 in the sparge).

Mash pH, adjusted for the possibility that the test strips I use have a possibility of reading up to .3 low, should have been in the 5.0-5.2 range.

I used White Labs WLP320 (American Hefe) for the yeast.

I am trying to determine whether the slight "tanginess" (I hesitate to really call it sour) is to be expected by the use of my base ingredients, or whether I used more acidulated malt than would have been appropriate for my flavor.

I know the hops I used are both known for "citrusy" aromas and flavors.

I've read up on the WLP 320 and I have seen where others indicate picking up various, sometimes strong, citrus flavors, particularly lemon.

The beer finished pretty dry as well, so that should also contribute to the "crisp" perception (OG 1.053; FG 1.009)

AJ. Any thoughts here? Like I said, I am not complaining. It's a tasty beer and my wife has already asked me to work it into the lineup again. I've never brewed anything like this and am just checking to see if the acid malt is contributing to the flavors I am picking up, or if it is just a combination of multiple factors.

 

[ajdelange]

"Wheat tang" is an important part of the flavor profile of wheat beers and I'm guessing that this is where what you are noticing comes from. The sauermalz at the level you used it would not be enough to make much of a flavor contribution. It would, at most, add a subtle complexity (that phrase really describes it well, doesn't it). Rye is pretty tangy too - in fact tangier than wheat and in actuality that's probably where most of it comes from in your beer.

 

[winvarin]

Thanks. That's good to know. It's the first time I've ever brewed with rye. I really enjoy the beer. Thanks for all your help on this one. This is one of the better "light" profiled beers I have made. I still tend to favor darker and/or more bitter beers. But it's nice to know that I now have lighter beers available to me and that my unadjusted water was the main thing holding me back.

And I know exactly what you mean by subtle complexity. I may be waxing philosophic, but I could actually pick out various layers of tang or tartness. I could smell a little bit of citrus (like freshly zested lemon), and I could taste varying degrees of it in the beer, especially on the back of my tongue. Sometimes it would be backed up by just a touch of that characteristic hefeweizen yeast flavor (much subdued in the WLP 320). Sometimes I could pick it up along with the light bitterness of the hops.

Again. I have to hand it to you. Knocking back the alkalinity really allowed many of the different flavors and aromas to shine through.