First Time Sparkling 'Wine'

[ljc973]

Hello All,

Let me start by saying that this is technically a mead (pyment), but I want it to finish in the style of a sparkling wine. Here is my recipe:

1gal bottled water
1gal white grape juice
2lb wildflower honey
6lb moondrop grapes (crushed)
1tsp lemon juice
Pectinase/SNA as directed
11g Lalvin 71B

OG: 1.118

I would like the residual sugar to be similar to a Brut, around 12g/L (~1.005 FG), and I would like to bottle condition it to around 6vol CO2. I believe the 71B should get me pretty close to a 1.005 FG (alcohol tolerance is ~14%), but it may bring me lower. As of right now, my plan is to let it ferment out, stabilize with potassium sorbate and metabisulfite, back sweeten to 1.005 FG if I need to, then pitch 1g of Lalvin EC1118 with 5.52oz corn sugar (2gal at 68F) at bottling. The problem is, I believe the EC1118 will 'eat' my 1.005FG AND the corn sugar, leaving me with a 'dryer' finished product. Am I wrong to assume that? What is the best way to go about doing this? Thanks in advance!

 

[shanecb]

That plan won't work. You won't be able to restart fermentation after adding the sorbate. Your only way to carbonate after adding sorbate will be force carbonating in a keg.

If you skip the stabilization I'd think that, yeah, the EC-1118 probably would ferment it out a little dryer than it already was.

 

[ljc973]

Hey Shanecb,

It was my understanding that potassium metabisulfite inhibits wild yeast and bacteria via the release of SO2, and that potassium sorbate inhibits yeast via their reproduction cycle. So stabilizing should inhibit the 71B, but not necessarily the EC1118, although the initial pitch won't be able to reproduce (if I de-gas so there is no free SO2). Am I missing something, or is it more complicated than that?

 

[bernardsmith]

I think it is both more complex and less complex than you imagine. K-meta and K-sorbate in the presence of a small colony of yeast (after you have racked a couple of times in the course of aging) will stabilize your mead. Doesn't matter what yeast you pitched. And it doesn't matter what yeast you pitched - if the colony is large and very active these two chemicals used at normal levels will not stabilize your mead.
Degassing is about removing CO2 - the carbon dioxide that the yeast produce, not the SO2 that you add to inhibit oxidation. I "degas" during active fermentation (so I have no concern about oxidation) and I add SO2 (K-meta) after racking and just before bottling so I have no concern about removing SO2 from the mead (although SO2 becomes "bound" with certain chemicals (aldehydes) in the presence of oxygen and can no longer effectively inhibit oxidation. This is why the amount of SO2 you want to add is technically connected to the pH of the wine or mead (A higher pH (less acidic mead) may require MORE SO2 than a lower pH mead -

 

[passedpawn]

That plan won't work. You won't be able to restart fermentation after adding the sorbate. Your only way to carbonate after adding sorbate will be force carbonating in a keg.

That works, but bottling from that keg is quite problematic. I carbonated a sparkling wine to 40psi, but it lost nearly all that pressure transferring with a Blichmann beer gun into cold champagne bottles. I'm not sure why. It carbonated for at least a month in the keg, so I know the gas had saturated the wine.

I sure wished it worked though.

 

[ljc973]

Hey Bernardsmith,

Fair enough; to clarify, I do usually add both to stabilize for my still meads. This is my first time trying to do something like this, so I'm just trying to see if anyone has any idea to go about doing it. Like Shanecb said, I could skip stabilizing, but the EC1118 will most likely bring my final product down to 1.000 or lower in the bottle. Even though that'll give me the carbonation I want, it will be much dryer than I would like to see form this.

 

[ljc973]

That works, but bottling from that keg is quite problematic. I carbonated a sparkling wine to 40psi, but it lost nearly all that pressure transferring with a Blichmann beer gun into cold champagne bottles. I'm not sure why. It carbonated for at least a month in the keg, so I know the gas had saturated the wine.

I sure wished it worked though.

Hey Passedpawn,

Wish I had the ability to force carb this, would save me the headache lol.

 

[shanecb]

Hey Shanecb,

It was my understanding that potassium metabisulfite inhibits wild yeast and bacteria via the release of SO2, and that potassium sorbate inhibits yeast via their reproduction cycle. So stabilizing should inhibit the 71B, but not necessarily the EC1118, although the initial pitch won't be able to reproduce (if I de-gas so there is no free SO2). Am I missing something, or is it more complicated than that?

No, you're not incorrect really. But, if you're adding sorbate in an appropriate way to sterilize the 71b, there's still going to be enough there to sterilize the EC-1118. You could eventually overcome the sorbate I guess, but I imagine it would require a significant amount of yeast cells to either 1) carbonate in the bottle without the need for cell reproduction or 2) use up all of the sorbate in solution, then pitch in yeast that could ferment easier. I don't have a clue what amount of yeast you might need for either of these, since it's not something people really do.

There's no easy way to get a carbonated & backsweetened batch locked in at a specific FG without force carbonation. Hopefully the 71b finishes at 1.004-1.006 or so and you can just roll with it at that.

 

[shanecb]

That works, but bottling from that keg is quite problematic. I carbonated a sparkling wine to 40psi, but it lost nearly all that pressure transferring with a Blichmann beer gun into cold champagne bottles. I'm not sure why. It carbonated for at least a month in the keg, so I know the gas had saturated the wine.

I sure wished it worked though.

Ahh good point. Sort of forgot about the transferring to bottles part. Sparkling wine on draft would be pretty neat though!

 

[ljc973]

No, you're not incorrect really. But, if you're adding sorbate in an appropriate way to sterilize the 71b, there's still going to be enough there to sterilize the EC-1118. You could eventually overcome the sorbate I guess, but I imagine it would require a significant amount of yeast cells to either 1) carbonate in the bottle without the need for cell reproduction or 2) use up all of the sorbate in solution, then pitch in yeast that could ferment easier. I don't have a clue what amount of yeast you might need for either of these, since it's not something people really do.

There no easy way to get a carbonated batch locked in at a specific FG without force carbonation. Hopefully the 71b finishes at 1.004-1.006 or so and you can just roll with it at that.

Hey Shanecb,

I hope that's how it all works out. Also, thanks for the reply!

 

[shanecb]

Hey Shanecb,

I hope that's how it all works out. Also, thanks for the reply!

No problem! Let us know how things turn out with the batch. If it doesn't finish at a gravity you like maybe we can come up with something you could do.

 

[ljc973]

No problem! Let us know how things turn out with the batch. If it doesn't finish at a gravity you like maybe we can come up with something you could do.

For sure!

 

[passedpawn]

Ahh good point. Sort of forgot about the transferring to bottles part. Sparkling wine on draft would be pretty neat though!

Wine from the tap was pretty cool, but I was bottling as gifts. So, it ended up barely sparkling prosecco. It is really tasty though. (I also double filtered through 5 and 0.5 micron filters, so it is extremely clear.

Beer will transfer and maintain it's carbonation just fine (at least at 12psi). No idea why wine is so different.

 

[Maylar]

71B-1122 might well bring your 1.118 must dry. The 14% limit is just an average. You could then add priming sugar and EC-1118 to do the bottle conditioning, but you're right in that it will also likely eat any residual sugar too if there is any. For the level of carbonation you're considering, about 5-6 gravity points will be consumed, so 1.005-ish at bottling (and in champagne bottles) is appropriate.

Bottling sparkling wine from a keg is messy and mega foam, I guess that's why champagne is always dry.

 

[klcramer]

What about fermenting it dry then back sweeting with a non fermentable sugar to get the sweetness you want then add just enough sugar to carbonate?

 

[passedpawn]

71B-1122 might well bring your 1.118 must dry. The 14% limit is just an average. You could then add priming sugar and EC-1118 to do the bottle conditioning, but you're right in that it will also likely eat any residual sugar too if there is any. For the level of carbonation you're considering, about 5-6 gravity points will be consumed, so 1.005-ish at bottling (and in champagne bottles) is appropriate.

Bottling sparkling wine from a keg is messy and mega foam, I guess that's why champagne is always dry.

The traditional way of carbonating champagne is the "champagne method". Read more about riddling/disgorging here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparkling_wine_production. No way I'm doing that. Seems WAY too hard.

My wife and I used to drink a lot of semi-sweet spring wines (e.g., Moscato d'Asti). They aren't dry at all. The carbonation of italian bubblies like these are done through fermentation in a tank (not in bottle), then the yeast is filtered and the carbonated wine transferred to bottles. Charmat method. Filtering carbonated beverages is messy, and bottling is even messier, so I assume all of this is done under pressure, a luxury I don't have.

What about fermenting it dry then back sweeting with a non fermentable sugar to get the sweetness you want then add just enough sugar to carbonate?

I think most people would prefer to use traditional wine ingredients to back-sweeten their wine (i.e., grape juice). But your suggestion would work. It is how we carbonate our bottled homebrew

 

[passedpawn]

Somebody on this forum has one of these. Seems ideal. Hard to swallow the cost unless I was making a lot of this stuff.

WilliamsWarn Counter Pressure Bottle Filler