First time - Did i mess up?

[Samurai]

Short story; went to japan 2 years ago and tried plum wine and thought it was AMAZING; so when I got back I planted my self a plum tree (thank you California sunshine). Fast forward 2 years an I got my first harvest of about 25lbs of plums and decided to give it a go. I spent countless hours researching wine making and thought I had it all covered.

So start things off I thoroughly washed everything and froze the plums as they ripened; Once I saved up enough, I gave them a quick 30 second blanch in boiling water to knock off and frost and kill any surface germs/bacteria/yeast etc.
so far so good; freezing made destining the plums a piece of cake and the skins came off in one whole piece.

I followed a combo of recipes on the internet for making 5 gal; some had 2lbs of sugar per gal, so had more and in the end settled in the middle; I only had 6lbs of corn sugar so made up the rest with cane, all in all was about 11lbs;

I took a SG reading and it was at about 1.110; which seemed high so I put in another half gal of water to dilute to 1.100; Then I took a acid test and it was super high, about 9.5; I didn't have any acid reducers at the time so I added my 5 Camden tablets and let sit overnight with all the processed plums.

The next morning I took another acid test and it was still 9.5 and the SG ROSE to 1.210! I didn't know if that was normal or not, but I didn't question it;

Went to the store and got some Potassium Carbonate; added it to the must and let sit for 12 hours. The acid level dropped down to 6.5 which I read elsewhere was acceptable and proceeded with fermentation; I also skipped on the acid blend thinking that it was already acidic enough.
The SG at this point also seemed to drop slightly to 1.190;

fermentation started up and had no problems; There was a heavy yeasty smell coming from the must and the fruity smell disappeared.
I stirred the must 2 times a day and figured everything was normal;

about 2 days into fermentation there was a slight smell of sulfur so added some DAP, sulfur smell went away, but the must turned from a really nice burgundy to a brick color, Problem #1. Don't know if that is normal, but seems 'odd'

Now into day 4 and fermentation is winding down; SG is about 1.020 and is still a little fizzy, but not bubbly like before.

I tasted the must and well, it tastes like rocket fuel; based on the SG meter, I am guessing it must be in the 13-14% range at this point. It also tastes fizzy, but I am guessing that is normal; There is a very slight hint of fruit flavor (but nothing like the fruit juice) before you are hit by the alcohol and then fizz; The after taste is dry and slightly yeasty (because its still working).

Also what is odd is it seems all the fruit has been eaten up; Meaning there is nothing at the bottom of this primary, the only the skins which I removed just now;

So at this point I don't know if this is all normal, or if there are some adjustments I should be making before I move to the secondary?

It will defiantly need some back sweetening because right now I don't think I could drink a glass of this stuff as it sits. The goal was to have a nice fruity sweet drink, right now I have a fizzy bucket of rocket fuel;

Thanks for anyone's help on this; I have a bunch of peaches to try to make into wine too, but didn't want to start until I had the plum situation under control.

 

[pumpkinman2012]

Light wines such as plum really get lost at higher ABV levels, a SG of approx. 1.200 is extremely high for that type of wine.
Once the yeast starts consuming the sugar in the fruit and producing alcohol and CO2, you won't taste the sweetness that you tasted in the must, if you want sweet, you will have to wait until it is fermented to dry, around .994-.992, rack off any sediment, stabilize with meta and sorbate and back sweeten, but remember, because of the high alcohol content, this wine will need to age a while, I would think a year before you back sweeten, fine it and bottle. During this time it will be necessary to add meta every few months to keep it from spoiling.
This is a common mistake that a lot of new wine makers make, they usually want to make a strong sweet wine.
With the peach wine, don't add as much sugar, I would add the water and sugar, mix well and take an SG reading, I'd shoot for 1.080 -1.090, around 11% ABV, you'll get a wine that tastes good and although you'll still have to ferment to dry and back sweeten, the time needed to age will be greatly reduced.
Be advised, I've heard that while a peach wine is fermenting, it can be really stinky.
Get yourself Fermaid K instead of DAP, you'll be much happier, and so will your yeast.
The color change might go back to a darker color, but you can also lose color after adding meta.
I've made a few real nice fruit wine and melomels, chalk this batch up to experience, it will be good, it'll just take a bit of time to age due to the high ABV%.

 

[Samurai]

Thanks, I was a bit nervous;
Also I am not sure I am reading my hydrometer correctly; I think its actually 1120;
The Estimated Alcohol reading on it was about 16%; according the chart;
So I don't think its as bad as my original post; though 16 is still high, its not as bad as 30 something.
I was shooting for a dessert wine like a moscato;

So it sounds like its still salvageable.

big relief.

 

[jensmith]

Did you add peptic enzyme?


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[podz]

16 % ABV is very high for any wine. I wouldn't imagine that there will be any fruit flavor left.

 

[Samurai]

yes on the peptic, 2 1/2 tsp for 5 gal; should I add more? im just going off the recipe.
on the flavor.

I just did the morning read, SPG down to 1011, so its getting there. Probably will be ready to transfer by tomorrow morning.
Fizz down slightly, But the yeast party is still happening

There is a interesting phenomenon happening with the alcohol flavor; I tasted just below the foam without stirring this morning and it wasn't bad; I stirred it up and then it tasted strong again. So it would seem that some of the alcohol is settling somewhere and stirring it up redistributes the taste. Either that or there is something in the must that is making the alcohol taste more pronounced.

There is still a fruit flavor there its just less pronounced than I expected. Maybe it will revive after some time and back sweetening.
If not what is the best course of action? wait til back sweetening and just add plum/prune juice?

 

[pumpkinman2012]

Don't rack the wine until it is fermented dry, if you rack at 1.000 like so many do (this isn't a wine kit, you need to let it ferment) you run the risk of a stuck fermentation.
Your best bet after it has fermented to dry is to rack to a new carboy, stabilize with meta and let it age, forget about it for at least 6 months before even trying a taste, my guess is that it'll need a year before you will want to back sweeten and clarify. If large amounts of sediment drop, you can rack every 2-3 months.

 

[Samurai]

So its been about 24 hours and my SG hasn't changed, its at about 1.006 (3 lines above the 1000 mark);
is this to high to rack? There seems to be very little activity happening, there seems to be something still happening as its making a slight soda pop like sound; but no foam at the top;
Has this stalled or is it just taking its time and I should give it a few more days? or is this just done for .

 

[jensmith]

Its normel. All is well! You can rack it now if you want to, or wait another few days.


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[Takuie]

Also, the egg fart smell is normal while in first stage of fermenting. Wine takes a lot longer to ferment and age than beer. Really hot wines, like you have made will age nicely. Around the 10-12 month time (sometimes even as little as 6 months), the rocket fuel taste will drop and the fruits will come forward. At this point you can stabilize (if you haven't done already) and back sweeten. The color change you describe is normal as well. Color should start coming back as it ferments and ages, as well as clarity. NEVER bottle a cloudy wine.

 

[pumpkinman2012]

@Jensmith - I'm curious as to why would you want to rack a wine that hasn't finished fermenting? This will only help to make it a stalled fermentation. Don't rack until you have at least 3 consecutive days that the SG doesn't move.

 

[Samurai]

I think i am just being impatient; it dropped last night to 1004 from 1006 so a 002 improvement.
I was beginning to worry because today is day 7 and every thing i read said that it should take 5-7 days; But in this case its looking to be more like 10-15.

 

[pumpkinman2012]

Patience is the hardest part! Give the wine some time, you will be happy that you did! I usually start to make more beer when I start to get impatient!

 

[podz]

I think i am just being impatient; it dropped last night to 1004 from 1006 so a 002 improvement.
I was beginning to worry because today is day 7 and every thing i read said that it should take 5-7 days; But in this case its looking to be more like 10-15.

The higher the alcohol percentage, the longer it can take to finish fermenting.

I've never had anything finish in 5 days except for beer. 9% Cider takes 7-8 days and 13% wine takes 8-10 days.

But the single biggest thing that will slow fermentation is not having appropriate levels of nutrients.

 

[jensmith]

@Jensmith - I'm curious as to why would you want to rack a wine that hasn't finished fermenting? This will only help to make it a stalled fermentation. Don't rack until you have at least 3 consecutive days that the SG doesn't move.

Reasons for racking at any point after it reaches 1.010.... Time I have avalible for racking is either now or in two weeks.
I really need my fermentor for a new batch of wine!
Heavy fruit fly infestation. Tired of picking fruit flies out of my nose when I uncover it to stirr!
There is still plenty of yeast in suspention for the wine to finish fermenting after racking. No stalled ferment.
The risk of contamination or off flavors from stressed yeast is less if racked around 1.000. Assuming you do not have any to start with. ( I beleive the posters sg was 1.004, close enough for racking)
I often use the sludge to make a seconds wine for top off. The yeast is happier if there is a tiny bit of suger left.
I never take sg readings every day. When it is done fermenting, still and sarting to clear, and the fruit has all sunk, it is time to rack. I take the sg reading for my records, but do not wait for three consecutive days. The sg can still change after those three days, due to very slow fermentaion.
If I really want to be sure fermentaion is all done, I wait untill I get several sg reading over several months time. Not days. Clearly this does not happen with the first rack
Sometimes the wine must is a very slow fermentor. After two weeks in an open bucket it gets racked with the top layer of sludge. It can now take all the time it wants to finish fermenting. (Cranberry wine does this some years)




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[pumpkinman2012]

Jensmith,
I was referencing was the fact that most times when you are making wine and rack before it it well below 1.000 you run the risk of fermentation not completing.
You made a bunch of points justifying racking early that I feel that I must address.

• I've never been so busy that I didn't have 10 mins to rack my wine, nor have I ever had to rack due to needing to use the fermenter, I would highly recommend making more than your "pipeline" can handle, when you start to rush things, that is when errors can and will happen.
• I've been making wine for quite some time, and I've never left a fermenter open just covered with a cloth, if you use the proper size fermenter, you can have a cover on it and still have enough oxygen for the yeast by giving it a daily stir (with fresh grapes this would be taken care of with the punch downs) as far as having too many fruit flies, I hang plenty of fly strips in the winery area that take care of most all of the fruit flies.

The risk of contamination or off flavors from stressed yeast is less if racked around 1.000.

• If you are making your wine properly, making sure you have a nice healthy fermentation by selecting a proper yeast, hydrate it with a hydration nutrient such as Go-Ferm, and use a yeast nutrient such as Fermaid K, there is no risk of stressed yeast? I've never heard of "contamination or off flavors from stressed yeast" with wine.

I often use the sludge to make a seconds wine for top off.

• You are using the (you called it sludge) Lees to make a wine for topping off? I'd no sooner make an extra gallon or two of the wine and ferment or age it in a one gallon bottle then use the lees, this is in essence dead yeast and sediment that has dropped out of suspension, this is when the off flavors and stressed yeast come from.

• I don't take SG reading daily either, but the rule of thumb is three days consecutively that the SG doesn't change and you can consider it finished or stuck. I am well aware that certain fruit wine can take longer to ferment, but when you rack it off the yeast prematurely, you run a high risk of causing a stuck fermentation, this is just a proven fact.

• If you have the fermenter open after 2 weeks, the wine isn't fermenting vigorously enough to produce enough CO2 to protect the wine, it should have been covered and air locked long ago, the whole point of racking your wine is to rack it off the lees, why do you rack the sediment back into the wine? Unless you are racking it too early (before it is fermented dry) and you are hoping to rack what yeast that is still alive back into the wine so it might still ferment, this is a wasted step, if you are fermenting a wine that you know is harder to ferment, use a stronger yeast such as EC-1118, hydrate it with a hydration nutrient such as Go-Ferm, and use a yeast nutrient such as Fermaid K splitting up the additions into 2 or 3 applications to ensure that the yeast is healthy and strong, you wont have to go through unnecessary steps.

I highly recommend that you either order or download the Scott Labs Fermentation handbook, it is a great tool to have and will help you to make the best selections for your wine.

 

[jensmith]

Jensmith,
I was referencing was the fact that most times when you are making wine and rack before it it well below 1.000 you run the risk of fermentation not completing.

Again, there is plenty of yeast still in suspention. No stalled fermemt due to lack of yeast. Lack of nutriants or early adding of campton are more likely to stall the ferment out.

You made a bunch of points justifying racking early that I feel that I must address.

• I've never been so busy that I didn't have 10 mins to rack my wine,
  
  must be nice to have plenty of time! (trips where I am gone for several days or longer, poor planning on starting a wine, life!)
  
  nor have I ever had to rack due to needing to use the fermenter,
  
  Over abundunce of Fruit with no freezer space
  
  I would highly recommend making more than your "pipeline" can handle, when you start to rush things, that is when errors can and will happen.
  
  You must have forgoten the "not' in there somewhere... I don't rush my wines. They are ready when they are ready, but may get drunk early!
  
  
• I've been making wine for quite some time,
  
  ditto
  
  and I've never left a fermenter open just covered with a cloth, if you use the proper size fermenter, you can have a cover on it and still have enough oxygen for the yeast by giving it a daily stir (with fresh grapes this would be taken care of with the punch downs) as far as having too many fruit flies, I hang plenty of fly strips in the winery area that take care of most all of the fruit flies.

I ferment in an open bucket, with a cloth over. Not a snaped down lid under airlock. I only use whole fruit. Never a kit so far. Maybe you are refering to more of a kit type juice only wine. There is a lot of fruit sludge involved with country wines.

• If you are making your wine properly, making sure you have a nice healthy fermentation by selecting a proper yeast, hydrate it with a hydration nutrient such as Go-Ferm, and use a yeast nutrient such as Fermaid K, there is no risk of stressed yeast?
  
  I do. Not an issue with the vast magjority of my wines. That one slow one was a cranberry, remember? They are very slow in a good year.
  
  I've never heard of "contamination or off flavors from stressed yeast" with wine.

Keep reading these wine chats and other publications. You will hear plenty about getting off flavors during wine making. Often from stressed yeast.

• You are using the (you called it sludge) Lees to make a wine for topping off? I'd no sooner make an extra gallon or two of the wine and ferment or age it in a one gallon bottle then use the lees, this is in essence dead yeast and sediment that has dropped out of suspension, this is when the off flavors and stressed yeast come from.

You have never made a secods wine??? You are missing out!! They are as good as the first or sometimes better. Again, this is with whole fruit wines, not just juice. Take blueberries, with a five galleon batch of wine you get over a galleon of wine sludge. I am not gonna just dump that! Yes, there is some dead yeast in there. Some yeast nutriants are made from dead yeast... However those sink to the bottom of the pail. Kinda like glue with an extra galleon or less of water, nutriants and suger, that wine sludge is now 1-2 galeons of lighter wine. Yes, no off flavores due to not racking either.
I never said that the wine should be racked over before compleatly dry. Just that it can be without problems.

• I don't take SG reading daily either, but the rule of thumb is three days consecutively that the SG doesn't change and you can consider it finished or stuck.
  
  Not a rule I live by. I am however aware that most people here live by it. I would rather wait longer then three days before saying it is either done or stuck.
  
  I am well aware that certain fruit wine can take longer to ferment, but when you rack it off the yeast prematurely, you run a high risk of causing a stuck fermentation, this is just a proven fact.

Unless it has cleared fully, not all the yeast will be left behind. Just the dead or worn out yeast. Live yeast will still be in suspention.

• If you have the fermenter open after 2 weeks, the wine isn't fermenting vigorously enough to produce enough CO2 to protect the wine, it should have been covered and air locked long ago, the whole point of racking your wine is to rack it off the lees, why do you rack the sediment back into the wine?
  Unless you are racking it too early (before it is fermented dry) and you are hoping to rack what yeast that is still alive back into the wine so it might still ferment, this is a wasted step, if you are fermenting a wine that you know is harder to ferment, use a stronger yeast such as EC-1118, the hydrate it with a hydration nutrient such as Go-Ferm, and use a yeast nutrient such as Fermaid K splitting up the additions into 2 or 3 applications to ensure that the yeast is healthy and strong, you wont have to go through unnecessary steps.

I don't like the flavor profile of 1116 or 1118. I do use them, but they are not my first choice.

I highly recommend that you either order or download the Scott Labs Fermentation handbook, it is a great tool to have and will help you to make the best selections for your wine.

I feel like I have been beating a dead horse. We both have working wine making habbits. I never told the OP he must rack his wine before it was dry. Just that he could. Sorry if that goes against your habbits. It does work. And yes, usually it is "best" to wait, but not mandatory. There are times it needs to be racked "early". Granted I have only made 25 or so batches a year on avarage, I am sure there are different working rules of thumb I have yet to live by.

Grumbeling a-side, it is nice to see pros amd cons or different working methods printed out.

My only rule of thumb, "there are many ways to do it right. What works for me may not work for you."


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[pumpkinman2012]

Jensmith,
I didn't mean for you to take this personally, I simply want to give the OP the best advice that I can, you seem to be annoyed with my reply so I will keep this short and sweet.
I mean no disrespect to you or your wine making methods, you are correct, we seem to have different ways.

*I don't make kit wines, I've made 3 just to see what it was all about, I won't ever make them again, I make wine from fresh grapes and a juice bucket here and there.

*Off flavors from stressed yeast, absolutely, Again, this is why I suggested using a yeast that can handle what you are making and using the "best practices" when preparing yeast (hydrating with a hydration nutrients and so on).

*I've made plenty of second run wine, usually made from the pressed grapes, I've never heard of using the lees/sediment, what is actually there to bring flavor to the wine, spent yeast and sediment? This sounds a lot like Sur Lie aging, mostly used for white wines. The following was taken from the Morewine website:

If during a white wine fermentation; A) the yeast did not get the proper nutrition it required, B) the wine was not stirred daily to release the volatile sulfur compounds created by the yeast during fermentation, and/or C) the temperature was allowed to run warm (≥70 F) the yeast become stressed and produce H2S as well as other undesirable compounds. If this happens, when the unhappy yeast settle out to form the lees at the end of fermentation, the source of these negative sulfur compounds is localized and concentrated at the bottom of the vessel. The longer the wine stays in contact with these undesirable compounds the more it will incorporate them- to the point of spoiling the wine pretty quickly. Therefore a good safe-guard to avoid creating sulfur problems in our wines is to quickly rack off of the lees as soon as fermentation is over. This is the approach that is recommended in most white winemaking texts.

*To be fair to you, I have been searching the internet for making wine with the sediment, or uses for wine sediment and I cannot find anything related to making wine with it.

Jensmith, with much due respect, I guess that we can agree to disagree and move on.
Thanks for the sharing your knowledge.

 

[jensmith]

I am not anoyed or offeneded by anything you said. Just grumpy at this stupid key pad, fat fingers, and trying to type a long reply in a hurry befor coffe and expected company!! I knew I should have just waited! Explaining a fine difference in a small detail makes me grumpy too. This is why I try to keep my typed messages short
I think better in cold weather. This heat and humidity fried my brains.


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[Samurai]

Patience is not a virtue of mine; i work in IT.

But the good news is that im down to 1000SG; so based on what you have been saying, maybe by Saturday i should be able to transfer over to the primary; It seems to lose about .001 per 24 hours at this point, so that would put it in the .998-.997 range.
Or should i still give it more time? because i have about 40lbs of peaches taking up a ton of room that need to be processed

 

[pumpkinman2012]

I'd wait, if it is still fermenting, why rush it.

 

[jensmith]

Buy a second fermenting bucket!


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[Samurai]

damn logic.
I could, but i think it would be a waste since the 2 fruits ripen at slightly different times. I messed up and didn't know that i was supposed to prune the trees and ended up with 100's of tiny fruit instead of large fruit so harvest came earlier than it should. live an learn...

As a side question; how much do the lees ad to SPG? i noticed that there is a lot of very fine material suspended in the wine, i ask because its been 48 hours at SPG of 1.000 and hasn't changed at all not sure if the suspended material is holding up the hydrometer;
I also notice that 99% of the bubbles have stopped; There are some, but only if i agitate the liquid a little bit; Should i be adding in some yeast energizer, or is it to late in the game for that? Just concerned that its stalled out and will just sit there doing nothing.

 

[pumpkinman2012]

Do not add any yeast at a SG of 1.000, it is a waste. You could mic it up and get the yeast back into suspension, that may kick start it again, even if just enough to ferment just a bit more.

 

[jensmith]

damn logic.
I could, but i think it would be a waste since the 2 fruits ripen at slightly different times. I messed up and didn't know that i was supposed to prune the trees and ended up with 100's of tiny fruit instead of large fruit so harvest came earlier than it should. live an learn...

As a side question; how much do the lees ad to SPG? i noticed that there is a lot of very fine material suspended in the wine, i ask because its been 48 hours at SPG of 1.000 and hasn't changed at all not sure if the suspended material is holding up the hydrometer;
I also notice that 99% of the bubbles have stopped; There are some, but only if i agitate the liquid a little bit; Should i be adding in some yeast energizer, or is it to late in the game for that? Just concerned that its stalled out and will just sit there doing nothing.

The sedament has been there all along, so its not bothering the sg reading. It takes a lot of fruit to mess up your readings. If you want to be sure of a clear reading try straining a sample first. Or better yet, take your sample from the top of the wine before stirring!
As usuall I have conflicting advise if you really want it to ferment dry then yes, you can add some yeast energizer or nutriant. Not a full dose however! Just sprinkle some on top of the must. If it needs it, it will foam up or boil a bit. Very fun to watch with as much stuff as you have still floating around I would feel very safe in adding more nutriant. It is not done fermenting yet. When it is done it will start to clear or settle. I have even added energizer to a slow wine months after it was "done". Fermentaion started back up and finished those last few stubborn points. No bad flavors were ever detected. I have added nutriant or energizer past the halfway done fermenting point many times. No harm was ever done. If the yeast needs more it eats it. If not it settles to the bottom and gets left behind the next racking.

Or you could rack it now. Any furter fermenting can be finished under airlock with all the fruit taken out. You will just have lots of sedament to deal with on your first racking. Not a big deal.



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[fuelish]

Buy a second fermenting bucket!

Indeed....you can never have too many fermentors...nor too many guitars...but my wife begs to differ