First partial mash mayhem

[Jayslay]

Hello,

I've been brewing kits for over ten years now but have just recently got into steeping grains and now finally partial mash. Last night was my first attemp at it, trying to brew a hefeweizen. I posted in recipes section for some tips but I guess I didn't interest anyone enough to respond. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/strawberry-hefeweizen-pm-1st-pm-418348/

Anyways, I think my recipe was a little bit more complex than i needed and I got in a little over my head by trying to do a decoction with multiple rests.
I logged my temperatures over time and found that I was all over the place... How much does each rest change the end wort product in a partial mash?

I guess I should have brushed up on that chapter in How to Brew..

Mashed in @ 116F for 18 min (too warm....)
Infused with boiled water to get to 124F for 15 min
After that Im sort of got lost trying to stabilize the temps..

heated to 144F for about 10 min
heated to 154 for 20 minutes (removed a half gallon decoction, boil 20 min)
Added decoct. back in to acheive 160F for 5-10 minutes
Ramped it up to 168F for several minutes and then flameout.

Im all over the map, probably missed the optimal enzyme temps and hold times. Will my beer hefe turn out alright? Do people actually read these long posts?

 

[Mozart]

I'm planning my first partial mash myself, so I am far from the expert on this.

That said, I wouldn't think the results of your process, no matter how all over the map it was, will change the outcome terribly. I bet you still got conversion, and will wind up with a really nice hefe when it's all said and done.

Cheers!

 

[unionrdr]

I haven't done a decoction mash yet,but shouldn't you get to mash temp,then do decoctions? Those beginning mash temps seem a little low. But I could be wrong. You have to do it right to keep enough ezymes for conversion though.

 

[Jayslay]

From what my rushed research has yielded, the starch to sugar conversion does occur at the higher temperatures. What the multi-step rests is supposed to do is give the various other enzymes their "optimal" temps for doing work. The starch conversion I beleive is only the beta and alpha amylase enzyme.

There is a protease as well as a beta-glucanase (sp?) enzyme which do their own seperate jobs at lower temperatures.. Im just starting to learn about the functions of these enzymes. Basically the rest keeps the enzymes from being denatured by the higher heat, to give them a bit of time to start eating. Once you reach mash temp of 150F or whatever, the lower temp enzymes will be denatured/dead.

This whole multi-rest decoction was way over what I should have attempted, but I heard it helps for German beers to have a rich malt profile. Next beer will be a partial mash with just the one mash temp... that should make life simpler. I'm glad that I did try the hard way first, its all downhill now.

Anyone else have any pro-brewer tips for decoctions and rests?

 

[unionrdr]

Lower temp enzymes?! Now I know I have to study decoction mashing further. Being German myself,i wanna learn this...

 

[gr8shandini]

The lower temperature mashes are only required if you're using raw grains. I'm a little hazy on the chemistry, but the idea is that you're breaking down the proteins and gelatinizing the starches in order to make them available for the enzymes from the malt to do their conversion. If you're using malted and / or flaked wheat, that isn't necessary as those processes already liberate the starches.

I would have gone for a single infusion at around 150 - 152 F for 45 minutes, then started a decoction calculated to bring the grain to "mash out" temps (about 168). I use a similar profile (with a slightly higher mash temp) with good success in my Oktoberfest/Marzen. I did find, however, you need to keep the decoction on the boil for a good 10 minutes or so to let those Maillard reactions going. The first time I just brought it to a boil and dumped it in. Came out fine, but didn't have the flavor profile to make it worth the trouble.

So, back to your brew, did you hit your OG and did you do an iodine test for conversion? If both of those worked out, I wouldn't worry. You've still probably got some good beer going.

 

[Jayslay]

Thanks for the reply!

In terms of OG, I would say that yes, I hit it exactly. I even formulated this recipe without software, without previous AG experience. I just sort of guessed at what might make a good combination... very happy that once diluted to 23L my OG was 1.050, which is basically what I wanted this hefe to start at. Im just counting my lucky stars for that, Im hoping that the beer will turn out alright. I hope the sugars in the wort weren't all from the extracts... I guess I just don't know what t expect. I didn't take a gravity reading sample before I added the extract so I don't really know how to figure out my efficiency.

All I know is post boil, but pre-diluted I had 12.5 L of wort which I topped up. In hindsight I could have fit more water in my pot but again I was uncertain and didnt want a boil over.

I havn't got the iodine testing set up yet, but I was looking into it as a good test for conversion.

 

[gr8shandini]

If you hit your desired OG, the contribution from the mini mash must have been pretty close to what you planned. You could probably back out the efficiency if you wanted by subtracting 36 points per pound per gallon for the extract (sorry, don't know the metric numbers off the top of my head) and the remaining sugars must have come from the mash. But, again, since you hit your OG, it's safe to assume that you got whatever efficiency you calculated the recipe for.

And if you're still worried about conversion, you could do the iodine test next time you pull a sample. If there was starch in the wort, it'll still be starch. If the iodine doesn't turn purple/black, you're in the clear.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

Anyone else have any pro-brewer tips for decoctions and rests?

I have never done a true decot, so I'll leave that up to someone who knows more. As for what else it seems like you were trying to achieve, you were doing a beta-glucan rest when you doughed in. Though that is best between 98-112º F. This is a cereal mash, and only needs to be done when using a large portion of unmalted grain. The second step, in the low 120ºs F is a protein rest, and is generally only needed when using malts that aren't highly modified. Most malts nowadays are highly modified, though depending on your grist a protein rest is probably a good thing for a hef. The other two "sacch" rests are beta and alpha rests, they convert starch to sugar. The beta amalayse will attack the starches (long chain sugars) at the ends and create a very fermentable wort by leaving a lot of simple sugars. The alpha amalayze will attack the starches in the middle, leaving some long chains and some simple, creating more unfermentables and a fuller bodied beer.

Kudos to you for taking on such a mash profile your first time out. That's alotta work, even for a very experienced brewer to take on. Pretty impressive for a first try at mashing!! As for the necessity, I think for a hef, using modern ingredients, you can get away with a single infusion, though a two step mash would be even better. A Beta amalayze rest in the low 140ºs followed by an alpha in the mid 150ºs would work fine. Decocting to heat from beta to alpha will produce a great beer, add complexity to the malt and make for a very fun brew day. Though you can easily get away with just infusing (adding hot water) to reach the alpha temps.

Either way, the temps of all of these rests are pretty broad and therefore forgiving if you're not spot on. I'd say it sounds like you created the wort you set out to make and your beer will be good. I do recommend that you get some brewing software as you move into mashing more, especially if you're going to be doing more complex mashes in the future. It will take a lot of the guesswork out of it and give you some guidance on how and when to do what.

 

[Jayslay]

Gr8shandini and Nordeastbrewer, Thank you very much!
It makes me happy to hear from more experienced brewers. I have no friends or family that brew beer so the only advice I can get is through you all. So happy I have this resource..

Its funny how you both have mentioned me planning this out, like I had any clue the amounts. It was all about looking at 10 hefe recipes and then making one that seemed like it COULD work Im just happy that everything has so far worked out. Fermentation was rapid yesterday, still going pretty good today as well. We just got a bit of a heat wave so my basement ferment area is now about 66F instead of 64 like it was last week. That means my wort is sitting around 73-75, confirmed by the temp strip. Man, just cant seem to catch a break.. was shooting for a wort temp of 68F max... I just have such little space.

Anyways, thank you for the kind words and the extremely informative replies!

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

Nice thing about a hef, the yeast works great at the temps you're at now. I like to ramp mine up to the low 70ºs after fermentation starts in the mid 60ºs. The warmer temps are what gets the yeast kicking that nice banana ester that is key in a good hef, IMO.

 

[gr8shandini]

Gr8shandini and Nordeastbrewer, Thank you very much!
It makes me happy to hear from more experienced brewers. I have no friends or family that brew beer so the only advice I can get is through you all. So happy I have this resource..

No problem at all. I'd hazard a guess that most of us are pretty much self taught. I'd say that 75% of what I've learned has come from HBT, so I feel the need to give some back from time to time. Hopefully, you'll feel confident enough to do the same in a year or two.

And I agree with Nordeast. If you're going to let a brew get a little warm, it should be a Hefe or Saison. You don't have anything to worry about.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

No problem at all. I'd hazard a guess that most of us are pretty much self taught. I'd say that 75% of what I've learned has come from HBT, so I feel the need to give some back from time to time. Hopefully, you'll feel confident enough to do the same in a year or two.

Yep, pretty much how I see it.

 

[Jayslay]

Hello guys,

Well I did a sample test and taste of my Hefe two days ago. I was shocked. Before I even brough it to my face a wonderfull banana and spice smell wafted up from the graduated cylinder. It was delicious and the taste matched its smell. Im so happy this turned out good! I sunk the 5lb brick of frozen strawberries into it, and they have started fermenting nicely. Im think of only letting them sit for about a week or ten days. They were on sale at Costco and because the Hefe was nice on its own, I din't think I need to struggle to get every last drop of flavor out.

I know alot of people would now consider this a fruit wheat beer instead of a Hefe...

 

[Jayslay]

double post - sorry!

 

[unionrdr]

Oh,I dunno...a strawberry banana spice wheat sounds like it'd go good with bananas Foster or the like?...

 

[Jayslay]

Update,

I tested the Hefe again, this time after its had almost a week on the Strawberries. I really enjoyed the smell and taste, and decided I would scoop the berries off with a santized seive. They were all bleached out and pinkish white. They smelled great still, but I worry about "winey or cidery" flavors from them fermenting too long.

I took a gravity reading which was identical to the reading that I had before I added Strawberries. I think I will bottle this up tonight in all my saved 500mL bottles (My Erdinger, Shoffenhoffer, Bio-Weiss and other hefe-bottles) that I santizied last night.

I debated rushing it out or letting it sit a bit longer. I decided for an early finish as I've meet my requirements of great smell and taste, and also reached a stable gravity again. I know hefe and wheat in general should be dranken fairly young, and so thats what Im going to do. My fiance has a B-day on the 21st so I think that I will make that date, giving this 2 weeks to bottle condition. Will do a final taste update when I have popped my tester bottle in a week or so.

 

[unionrdr]

I would've waited to sanitize the bottles right before filling. doing it the night before won't cut it usually.

 

[Jayslay]

Usually I agree, but this time I cleaned them and put a new garbage bag over all the bottle tops. I don't really enjoy the half hour spent cleaning the bottles before actually bottling, so I like to split it up sometimes.

I will report back in a couple weeks with a report on whether they are delicious, average or spoiled.

 

[IslandLizard]

I would've waited to sanitize the bottles right before filling. doing it the night before won't cut it usually.

+1

If I can't bottle right away, I leave the bottles in Starsan or leave them standing upside down in a puddle of Starsan.

 

[IslandLizard]

When your beer sample smells and tastes good, you're 90% there. Congrats!

The higher target mash temperatures will leave some more unfermentable dextrines which adds points to your final gravity and overall mouth feel.
If you mash (too) low, you may end up with unconverted starches or at best a very fermentable wort, that may result in a beer that tastes a little thin when done. Nothing major to worry about. Your next batch will be even better.

I always do partial mashes in a large pot that fits in my (pre-heated) oven. Easy to do step mashes that way, just heat it up on your stove while stirring, and return to oven.

I haven't figured out a simple, or better said, a more elegant way to do step mashes in my cooler yet, except to add boiling water while stirring like crazy. An extra set of hands helps to accomplish this task somewhat easier.

 

[Jayslay]

Well I sampled this Hefe early last night. It turned out exactly how I envisioned it A nice moderate strawberry smell, a golden peach color to the beer, and a nice medium body. It taste great like a Hefe should, and has a nice little bit of Strawberry in there. It finished with a nice bit of wheat flavor and a slight crispness. I enjoyed it on the patio in the sun and was just giddy it turned out as it did!