First Long Term Sour

[shaynsawchuk]

Laying down my first long term sour sometime over the next week or so. I was hoping to make something along the lines of a sour Belgian Golden. Mashing around 156F. Plan to diversify bugs with a couple good commercial sours (good excuse to consume some of the Liefmans Goudenband and La Trou du Diable Bar Volo 25th Anniversary I have). Going to keep it all on the primary yeast trub for a year, adding the oak after the initial fermentation ceases. Might dry hop a little bit if it seems appropriate. Re-yeasting with champagne yeast at bottling time.

3.5G Batch
75% Eff

OG: 1.083
FG: 1.008? (calculated with 90% AA)
IBU: 15
SRM: 6
ABV: 10%

76% Bohemian Pilsner (8lbs)
9% CaraBelge (1lb)
9%Flaked Wheat (1lb)
4% CaraFoam (.5lb)

15 IBU of Perle @ 90 Minute FWH

1 Pkg Wyeast 3787 Trappist High Gravity decanted from 1L starter
1 Pkg Wyeast 3763 Roeselare Blend co-pitched in primary

.5 oz American Light Toast Oak Beans

Thoughts? Suggestions? Words of wisdom?

 

[cluckk]

Not sure I would leave the oak in for a whole year. Though I usually no longer do secondaries for most beers, I would consider transferring into secondary to get it off of the oak after a couple months--I do this when adding oak cubes or beans. Of course, others may have done this too and say otherwise.

What you might consider is pulling a sample after 6 weeks and see where the oak is.

 

[aryoung1980]

I like what you have planned.
I had a Flanders red which I fermented with Roeselare. I kept it in primary for a year. I added my oak chips to the primary after fermentation slowed and let it sit for 50 weeks. I know first hand you can leave a beer on the yeast cake and wood chips for a full year with good results.


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[dcHokie]

Plan to diversify bugs with a couple good commercial sours (good excuse to consume some of the Liefmans Goudenband and La Trou du Diable Bar Volo 25th Anniversary I have).

I believe that Goudenband is pasteurized.

 

[Calder]

Just pitch the Roeselare, and save the Trappist yeast. Do not make a starter either. Roeselare is packaged with only a small amount of sacc yeast, to slow down the onset of fermentation. This allows a little time for the rest of it to increase their populations before the sacc starts producing alcohol. Pitching another yeast along with it will only slow the souring process.

Yes, if you don't see any fermentation in 4 days, then you should pitch additional sacc yeast.

1.083 is pretty high. Lacto and Pedio are inhibited by high alcohol. I think Wild Brews lists 8% abv as the limit. It is very much strain dependent, but the higher the OG the more risk you take of it not souring fully.

Unless you really feel you need 15 IBUs, I'd take that down below 10. I know Flanders are supposed to be 20 to 30 IBUs, but most sours have next to none as the Lacto doesn't do well with high IBUs.

You can do what you are planning, but since this is your first, you might want to stay within the generally accepted guidelines that make successful sours.

 

[shaynsawchuk]

Thanks for the great responses!

I'll be sure to keep an eye on the oak level as the beer goes along. I chose the light toast and a small dose in hopes that things wouldn't get out of hand after a year.

It's a shame the Goudenband is pasteurized. Ontario, Canada, doesn't see a whole lot of sour beer, but the LCBO (our provincial liquor distributor) announced that the spring beer release was to feature 'sours and hoppy beers' so hopefully I can pick up a few bottles worth adding in.

I'd rather toss the Trappist yeast in as a safety net in the beginning rather than risk fermentation starting slowly; supposing it won't do any harm. I've already mentally prepared myself not to touch this thing for a year, so timeliness isn't really a concern. As far as ABV goes, is it sensible to bring it down to 6.5%-7% by dropping out some of the Pilsner Malt and leaving the other ingredients as is to leave a bit more complex sugars? I'll scale back the IBU's as well.

Anyone have anything to contribute as far as dry hopping goes? Orval shows us that spicy Old World hops play nice with funk, but I've heard of people using fruity American hops as well.

 

[ahpsp]

Funk and sour are two different things, but dry hops can go well in a sour beer.

The issue with pitching a whole pack of Sacc at the start is that you will likely get less souring this way. Calder's suggestion is that you wait in order to see if it is needed, and to give the bacteria more of a chance to get established. You may want a less sour beer, but it his point is that the time will not matter if the Sacc does all the work immediately.

 

[40watt]

I think I too would primary with only the Roselare.
Instead of Champagne yeast at bottling, that is when I would use the 3787.

 

[40watt]

Also it is possible to produce a Golden strong with bacteria. If you are truly prepared to wait, you can keep the high abv.

If you were to dry hop with anything American, I would test it in a small portion of the beer to make sure you like it.

 

[40watt]

Just don't pitch the 3787 in the beginning if you want it to sour.

 

[shaynsawchuk]

I'll skip the 3787 in primary. Why bottle with that over Champagne yeast? I was looking forward to a 'free' pitch. Nice avatar by the way, a great tribute for a great artist.

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[40watt]

I only say that because I have learned that whatever yeast you use for bottling will impart some flavor.
Maybe you won't mind the character of the champagne yeast.
It takes such a small amount of yeast to bottle, you could just pull a little from a starter destined for another beer. Unless you have multiple jars of 3787 sitting in your fridge like I do. I would never be without that strain.
I'm considering putting it on my cereal in the mornings.

 

[ICWiener]

I just bottled a sour that was pitched with 3787 and Roselare. Both smack packs pitched in primary. I transferred to secondary after 3-4 weeks, put it on 1 oz of port soaked oak cubes and left it for 19 months. My IBUs and O.G. were a little lower than yours, but it is still bracingly sour. Bottled with 2 grams of champagne yeast.

Just wanted to let you know that, based on my experience, your original plan would probably turn out just fine.

 

[40watt]

I agree his original plan would work. Especially since he is willing to be patient.

My advice is purely my preference. The way I would do it.
There are surely a great many ways to skin a cat.

 

[ICWiener]

There are surely a great many ways to skin a cat.

True that's the great thing about making sours, you can try it 100 ways and see what works best. You never truly know what's going to happen.

 

[40watt]

I love the ever evolving nature of sours. Pushing things in the direction you want. Always getting slightly different results. Seeing what the micro flora want to give you. Making that into something that pleases you. Really appeals to my artistic side.

 

[dcHokie]

Instead of Champagne yeast at bottling, that is when I would use the 3787.

I only say that because I have learned that whatever yeast you use for bottling will impart some flavor.
Maybe you won't mind the character of the champagne yeast.
It takes such a small amount of yeast to bottle, you could just pull a little from a starter destined for another beer.

Respectfully, I have to disagree on this point about bottling yeast in regards to sours.

After 12+ months all the original sacch is dead, the bugs/yeast have consumed nearly all sugar, you have a low pH, and in the OP's beer, high alcohol. At bottling you are just looking for something to eat the few ounces of priming sugar for CO2 production, so wine and champagne yeasts work well as they are better suited than sacch to high alcohol/low pH environments. That and its dirt cheap at $1.

 

[40watt]

Respectfully, I have to disagree on this point about bottling yeast in regards to sours.

After 12+ months all the original sacch is dead, the bugs/yeast have consumed nearly all sugar, you have a low pH, and in the OP's beer, high alcohol. At bottling you are just looking for something to eat the few ounces of priming sugar for CO2 production, so wine and champagne yeasts work well as they are better suited than sacch to high alcohol/low pH environments. That and its dirt cheap at $1.

Whatever you like. That's what you should do.

I will say that 3787 can withstand the alchohol, and it will eat your priming sugar. I also personally feel it leaves a nicer character in it's wake.
This is just my opinion, so you can't really disprove it.

 

[40watt]

Oh yes. I almost overlooked an important point. I haven't measured my ph, but my 3787 survived the low ph environment.
I'll admit that mine was a couple generations past the smack pack and likely more hardy.

 

[shaynsawchuk]

Brewed today. Dropped Pilsner Malt to 5 lbs, adjusted IBU's down to 10. Target OG 1.059, hit 1.054 due to a heavy handed top up. Pitched Roeselare only with no starter at 67F. Fermenting at an ambient 70F. Looking forward to tossing in some bottle dregs this evening. Thanks for the advice folks!

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