First Kettle Sour - specific steps Questions

[Ambleside]

Hey all, I've searched many threads to come up with the rough procedure for my first sour. Just a few specifics Id like cleared up if you guys have an opinion! Here's my process, and I'll outline what I'm not clear about, please add your opinion if something looks wrong.

Base beer: Red India Session Ale with Lacto and Brett

1-Mash as normal (have salts and lactic acid 88, etc if needed) any mash profile I should aim for?

2- sparge until I have full pre-boil volume, roughly 6 Gal for a 4.5-5 gal batch.

3- starter of Lacto. Read a starter will greatly decrease kettle souring time. What pitch rate? And I've heard wyeast 5335 is a good strain, and also not sure of whitelabs 672 Lacto brevis vs 677 Lacto bacteria. It's my first sour, so I'm open to the more simple option. Don't really have a taste yet for them. Recommendations?

4-cool to 112F. Pitch a starter Lacto into kettle. Cover with lid. Anything else (Saran wrap)?. I don't have insulated coolers etc. I'm under the impression that O2 is not as dangerous in a kettle sour as a mash sour.

5- kettle has thermometer. I planned to check it every two hours or so and spark up the burner to bring it back up to 112 ish. What range of temp change is acceptable? Maintaining a constant won't be possible I don't believe.

6- aim for 3.4 - 4 pH. I have no tools yet. But will get strips before hand. If that is insufficient, I can buy a ph meter. A few articles say that with a starter and temp maintaining, this could take less than a day.

7- Once between 3.4 - 4ph, bring to boil. (I'm not doing a no-boil, want to keep rest of equipment sterile aswell as add hops) Since souring is done and then killed off before hops, they won't interfere with the Lacto? I only plan to use a 15 min addition and a whirlpool for flavour and aroma, not going for any bittering. Using something like Galaxy.

8- drop to pitching temp. Using The yeast Bay's "Funktown". Blend of brett and vermont Sach.

9- ferment around 67-69. Rack to keg. Age a few months. Hopefully enjoy my first sour!!!

Cheers guys. That's a huge post. Any help on any of my points is greatly appreciated.

Matt

 

[CA_Mouse]

A reptile heating pad set under your kettle could help you maintain the heat during the souring phase.

Aging usually isn't as big of a deal in kettle souring, but since you are using Brett in the main fermentation, you would want the time for the Brett character to develop.

I will be doing this for my next sour, except that I'm not using Brett.

 

[youreanimpulse]

Funktown isn't Brett, it's Sacc Trois + Conan. So don't worry about waiting a bunch of time, package and consume fresh. I would also dry hop with the Galaxy. Good luck!

 

[Ambleside]

Funktown isn't Brett, it's Sacc Trois + Conan. So don't worry about waiting a bunch of time, package and consume fresh. I would also dry hop with the Galaxy. Good luck!

Cheers, was debating a dry hop along with the whirlpool. Will consider it. You sure it's about the Funktown?
I was just going by their site http://www.theyeastbay.com/wild-yeast-and-bacteria-products/funktown-pale-ale


Any other thoughts on the rest of my steps? Thanks thus far!

 

[youreanimpulse]

I got that info from Nick (owner of The Yeast Bay) on the Milk the Funk FB group we are both in. I've been using Funktown mixed with real Brett Drie for a few brews and that's a nice combo. I don't think he's changed the description since the Trois controversy.

 

[youreanimpulse]

I think the rest of your steps are good. If it doesn't attenuate as far as you want you can raise to 72 for a few days at the end. I tend to run it from 65-67 for 3 days then 72 till it's done. Pitch a good sized starter, as the low ph will inhibit yeast somewhat.

 

[SanPancho]

A reptile heating pad set under your kettle could help you maintain the heat during the souring phase.

+1. also a regular old hurt-my-back heating pad is fine too, you want this above 100F at all times, for sanitary reasons as well as speed.

you still need to be careful about oxygen. butyric acid is vomit smell. no bueno. keep 02 out of there. do the saran wrap cover or even better lay a blanket of co2 if you have the equipment/ability. wrap kettle with towels or blankets to retain heat.

if you're ordering from yeast bay then get the lacto brevis. its pretty damn fast. better than lacto d i think, but at some point its all just lactic acid.

which is why im frankly wondering if fast souring is even worth it, when you can just add some lactic acid- it will do the same thing in about 1 minute. unless somebody can point to other byproducts or flavors produced from lactic bacteria i have to wonder if it makes a difference getting your lactic acid from a live culture/vial or a food-grade bottle of acid.

ive yet to read/see/taste/hear of anything else lacto contributes other than just actual lactic acid. and im lazy. hence my suspicion of doing the extra work.

did i mention im lazy?

 

[Ambleside]

I think I'll try to spray some c02 for a blanket, I'm thinking that when I need to fire up the burner, Saran Wrap will just melt.

How fast does a kettle of wort drop anyway? My garage is likely around 85F, so I can't see 6 gallons of wort dropping fast from 112F. Will wrap in blankets though

 

[Ambleside]

Still thinking about this temp maintenance/O2 prevention.

In a warm garage, with the kettle wrapped in towels, would a reptile heating pad be enough to keep the wort at a warm enough temp for the duration of souring? In that case I could use Saran Wrap.

Otherwise I'm not sure how it would work. Feel like I would be turning on the burner, melting Saran Wrap, putting on new stuff, letting O2 in, etc.

Thoughts?
Cheers

 

[SanPancho]

just try it out. fill your kettle, heat to 112 or whatever number you're gonna to pitch at, then wrap it up with towels and the heater pad. the difference in temp control from 100% water to wort is negligible in this case.

i assume the reptile heater pad has hi/med/low switches? if not then get a cheap asss heating pad at drug store. it should definitely have multiple settings. try each setting until you find which one works best for your temps.

 

[CA_Mouse]

i assume the reptile heater pad has hi/med/low switches? if not then get a cheap asss heating pad at drug store. it should definitely have multiple settings. try each setting until you find which one works best for your temps.

Unfortunately, these have timers on them and automatically shut off after 30 minutes (governement regulations for fire and burn hazards), which is why I suggested the reptile heater. These are designed to provide constant heat (I've had reptiles for the better part of the last 25 years) and are the only way that I would try to maintain kettle temperature.

 

[SanPancho]

Unfortunately, these have timers on them and automatically shut off after 30 minutes (governement regulations for fire and burn hazards), which is why I suggested the reptile heater. These are designed to provide constant heat (I've had reptiles for the better part of the last 25 years) and are the only way that I would try to maintain kettle temperature.

not true. i got this heating pad on amazon within the past year. no shutoff. has been in my ferm chamber and under my back. plenty of times for over 30 minutes at a stretch.

in any case, heating pad/reptile pad/seedling mat all function on same principle. the point is that heating pad has temp settings, which is what you need if you want to be able to walk away for more than an hour or two.

i assume you do not have a temp controller ? maybe just invest $35 bucks in an inkbird 308? pretty cheap, controls heat and cold. pre wired. works out of the box. if you dont end up using it often you can always sell it back on craigslist/ebay/hbt. i think they're on amazon by now, can be to you in a few days' time.

 

[emarsh]

I'm also about to do my first sour. The guys at my LHBS had never heard of kettle souring, so I feel a little on my own. I bought WLP672, the lacto brevis, because the internet said it was fast. I do extract brewing, so I bought the Brewer's Best Weizenbier because it had the lowest IBU of all the kits.

I wonder how long I should keep it in the kettle before re-boiling. As stated by OP, perhaps I should measure pH until I get to a desired level (3.4-4, as stated by OP)? The advertised IBU of this beer is 6-10 (1oz of AU Helga hops and .5 German Hallertau).

Any additional tips?

 

[JonesCreek]

which is why im frankly wondering if fast souring is even worth it, when you can just add some lactic acid- it will do the same thing in about 1 minute. unless somebody can point to other byproducts or flavors produced from lactic bacteria i have to wonder if it makes a difference getting your lactic acid from a live culture/vial or a food-grade bottle of acid.

ive yet to read/see/taste/hear of anything else lacto contributes other than just actual lactic acid. and im lazy. hence my suspicion of doing the extra work.

did i mention im lazy?

Jay Goodwin was talking about using just lactic acid for souring and said it leads to a one note character with out much complexity. Yes, it will provide the ph drop and the sourness but will lack the depth of an actual lacto strain produces when used with a base beer.

Emarsh-
Have you brewed this yet?

I am attempting my first kettle souring project tomorrow. I have an electric system so it won't be a problem for me to maintain temp. What I am doing for O2 control is hooking up my O2 diffuser stone to my CO2 tank tank and screwing it in to my drain spout and am going to flush with CO2 at a high pressure for a few minutes with my kettle lid on and then lower the pressure to 1 or 2 psi for the rest of the process. I am also going to do a pre pasteurization by bringing the wort to 180 for 15 minutes and then cool back down to lacto temperature. Also a good rule is to drop the PH down to 4.5 with some sort of acid (lactic, phosphoric, or acidulated malt) prior to pitching the lacto to give it a head start and help prevent the nasties from taking hold. I am going to use a vial of wl677 and some unmilled grain. I will let you know how it turns out in about 3-5 days.

 

[SanPancho]

Jay Goodwin was talking about using just lactic acid for souring and said it leads to a one note character with out much complexity. Yes, it will provide the ph drop and the sourness but will lack the depth of an actual lacto strain produces when used with a base beer.

i dont know why talk of lacto souring always get these sorts of responses and comments. its such a stupid reaction and complaint in my opinion.

berliner wiesse is supposed to be a lacto soured sach strain beer. therefore your sour "note" MUST be one dimensional- lacto is the only souring agent.

you cant expect more than one note without adding another "instrument" like an oak barrel, like pediococcus, brett, etc. so the idea that it should be anything other than "one note" is ridiculous. that's the style.

if you want add another sour note, toss in pedio. if you want more complex flavors, go with brett, and aging, and even a barrel. but that's not a berliner weisse. that's not a fast/mash/kettle sour. that's some other sort of sour. wild, lambic, belgian, saison even. tastes good. even better, most would say. but its not a berliner.

end rant.

 

[SanPancho]

Jay Goodwin was talking about using just lactic acid for souring and said it leads to a one note character with out much complexity. Yes, it will provide the ph drop and the sourness but will lack the depth of an actual lacto strain produces when used with a base beer.

where's the evidence? what does lacto do to a sach yeast that provides some other flavor component? what byproduct does lacto produce that is not in lactic acid?

unless i see some empirical evidence to back the claim, i'm calling this another homebrew myth. do commercial brewers use lactic acid? no. but that's because two bags of sauermaltz is pretty cheap. a 55gal drum of food grade lactic acid? not so much...

 

[Agate]

http://sourbeerblog.com/fast-souring-lactobacillus/

 

[505-Brewer]

i dont know why talk of lacto souring always get these sorts of responses and comments. its such a stupid reaction and complaint in my opinion.



berliner wiesse is supposed to be a lacto soured sach strain beer. therefore your sour "note" MUST be one dimensional- lacto is the only souring agent.



you cant expect more than one note without adding another "instrument" like an oak barrel, like pediococcus, brett, etc. so the idea that it should be anything other than "one note" is ridiculous. that's the style.



if you want add another sour note, toss in pedio. if you want more complex flavors, go with brett, and aging, and even a barrel. but that's not a berliner weisse. that's not a fast/mash/kettle sour. that's some other sort of sour. wild, lambic, belgian, saison even. tastes good. even better, most would say. but its not a berliner.



end rant.

I agree with one (possible) exception. I thought brett character was found in classic historical styles of betlinner weisse albeit mild in character?

 

[505-Brewer]

where's the evidence? what does lacto do to a sach yeast that provides some other flavor component? what byproduct does lacto produce that is not in lactic acid?



unless i see some empirical evidence to back the claim, i'm calling this another homebrew myth. do commercial brewers use lactic acid? no. but that's because two bags of sauermaltz is pretty cheap. a 55gal drum of food grade lactic acid? not so much...

Lacto bugs make way more than just lactic acid - its not a homebrewers myth. If u want to see this info you should go look for it. A variety of aldehydes, esters, alkanes and the like. Its not a question of doing anything to the yeast as the fact that lacto itself has many metabolic pathways. Why would a natural biological species make exactly one product, i.e. Lactic acid. It wouldn't survive very long if it did.

Lactic acid is the same chemical no matter where it comes from. Brewers do use lactic acid and they use sauer malt. Mainly to lower pH. I bet one could lower the pH cheaper using lactic acid from a drum than using acidulated malt.

 

[SanPancho]

Lacto bugs make way more than just lactic acid - its not a homebrewers myth. If u want to see this info you should go look for it.

again- show me the evidence.


as for historical examples likely having some brett in there- i'd totally agree with it being likely, if not probable. these guys were sometimes aged for months, so brett could definitely get in there. but not necessarily on purpose i'd think. and more to the point, in today's versions, a brett inclusion would turn it into more of a wild/lambic than a typical berliner, from everything ive seen and all the examples i've tasted. (although i admit i may not have noticed any brett flavors when i tasted them in berlin- it was always with syrup.)

 

[JonesCreek]

Here is a link that has some great info on it. Scroll down and look at the chart and it will show you that aectic acid, ethyl acetate, lactic acid and diacetyl production rates of straight lactic acid vs different lacto and pedio strains.

http://www.morebeer.com/articles/brewing_with_lactic_acid_bacteria

If you want to hear the reference from Jay you would have to listen to the Sour Hour archive as it came in as a question from a listener. The Rare Barrel makes some amazing sours and I would trust what he has to say on this subject. Brewing Classic Styles compares adding lactic acid to microwaving a steak. Sure it works, but wouldn't you prefer to do it on a grill? I wouldn't waste my time brewing up a batch of wort just to throw a neutral spirit in there and call it beer, you would be losing the nuances that are provided by the yeast.


Now back on topic, I didn't have enough lactic acid to drop my ph down to the acceptable range of 4.9 or less, got it to 5.5 and after 24 hours at 110 it has dropped to 4.7.

I would use the earlier mentioned methods of using a heating blanket, reptile heater, or a fermwrap with a temp control.

 

[505-Brewer]

again- show me the evidence.





as for historical examples likely having some brett in there- i'd totally agree with it being likely, if not probable. these guys were sometimes aged for months, so brett could definitely get in there. but not necessarily on purpose i'd think. and more to the point, in today's versions, a brett inclusion would turn it into more of a wild/lambic than a typical berliner, from everything ive seen and all the examples i've tasted. (although i admit i may not have noticed any brett flavors when i tasted them in berlin- it was always with syrup.)

In addition to the more beer link above check out PhDinbeer website.

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1440309885.830954.jpg

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1440309923.396264.jpg


Your welcome.

 

[SanPancho]

Exactly!! thats what i've been looking for in terms of byproducts. Cant believe it was at a morebeer article page and it didnt come up in search.

so after being able to review here- the biggest take-away is that delbrucki is the culprit for one-note sours. which explains why we got no discernable taste difference between lactic acid vs lacto pitch. it was in fact a delbruccki strain of lacto.(white labs)

now it all makes sense. we've actually used brevis quite a few times, but not for fast sours, and typically only in a mixed fermentation with sach/brett/etc. from looking at the chart, the ppms of the lacto produced products are below the products of brett/sach/pedio (other than lactic) so it wouldn't have been noticeable in those beers on its own. and i dont think we've actually used buchneri either, just the brevis and the delbruicki.

good to know this one is not just a myth, it actually has some real data behind it.

 

[JonesCreek]

I think brett does something to lactic acid as well, if I recall it metabolizes lactic acid in it's fermentation, thus reducing to the overall lactic character.

 

[Agate]

I think brett does something to lactic acid as well, if I recall it metabolizes lactic acid in it's fermentation, thus reducing to the overall lactic character.

I think you're thinking of malic acid - some strains do indeed convert malic acid to lactic acid. Adding blackberries and other fruits high in malic acid to a Brett ferment - great idea!

 

[JonesCreek]

I think you're thinking of malic acid - some strains do indeed convert malic acid to lactic acid. Adding blackberries and other fruits high in malic acid to a Brett ferment - great idea!

That is what I was thinking of. I am going to be throwing in about 3/4 gallon of blackberry juice from berries picked along my property into a blonde ale that is 6 months old that I pitched brett bruxellensis and lacto delbruekii. I did a taste test the other day and it is coming along quite nice, not too sour but should be ready for our oktoberfest party in mid Oct. (I know it's not actually oktoberfest time).

My ph only dropped to 4.2 on the berliner kettle sour which is high for the style, I need to look into getting some acidulated malt for the next batch.

 

[CA_Mouse]

My ph only dropped to 4.2 on the berliner kettle sour which is high for the style, I need to look into getting some acidulated malt for the next batch.

I used Acidulated Malt in my kettle sour and it dropped the pH like a rock in a pond. It stopped at about 3.4pH, so it worked really nicely.

 

[Agate]

OYL-605 lacto is awesome. 24 hours, pH in mid 3's. The Swanson probiotic pills also work great.

 

[JonesCreek]

I used Acidulated Malt in my kettle sour and it dropped the pH like a rock in a pond. It stopped at about 3.4pH, so it worked really nicely.

So did you use acidulated malt for the main source of lacto as well?

I used WLP 677 and about a pound and a half of 2 row for a 1bbl batch.

 

[SanPancho]

OYL-605 lacto is awesome. 24 hours, pH in mid 3's. The Swanson probiotic pills also work great.

do you notice any difference between the probiotic pills and using either acid malt or cultured vial? i initially looked at some of those pills for souring but pretty much all the ones i saw had multiple strains of lacto and other bugs, wasnt sure it was the best idea to go mixing up my bugs. then again, i'd kind of guess that acid malt may have quite a few different bugs on it as well....