First kettle sour attempt, do I need a starter?

[Tidwellc]

Getting geared up to attempt my first sour. A Duchess de Bourgogne clone for my dad who is in love with that beer. I've never done a sour before but I feel pretty confident in the kettle souring process, but there's a few things I'm a little fuzzy on.

I'm definitely using a starter for the yeast, but do I need to do one for the bacteria too? If so, how does that differ from a yeast starter? I'm also going to be doing the kettle sour in a Mash and Boil, so keeping it warm during the process will be easy. However, I don't have a way to keep the starter warm. Is it going to be a big deal if the lacto starter is at room temp?

Pretty excited to try something different. Thanks for the help!

 

[RPh_Guy]

First, a kettle sour will not taste like Duchesse (also one of my favorites).
I enjoy Lacto/kettle sours, but they are far from a nice mixed fermentation sour with Brett.

A Lacto starter is not generally necessary, but may speed up souring.
A Lacto starter needs to be buffered with calcium carbonate (AKA chalk), and may benefit from a portion of simple sugar and yeast nutrient. It should not be aerated on a stir plate, but you may swirl it occasionally.
Decant off of the chalk layer when pitching.

Having a warm Lacto starter definitely helps, depending on the species.
I highly recommend using a culture with L. plantarum, which does not need to be kept warm and is generally the best at souring. It's great between 65-100°F.

Consider adding a bit of cherry flavor, oak, and/or malt vinegar to make your kettle sour taste more like Duchesse.

Cheers

 

[cactusgarrett]

I highly recommend using a culture with L. plantarum, which does not need to be kept warm and is generally the best at souring. It's great between 65-100°F.

This. I've little experience with platnarum vs brevis vs delbrueckii, so i couldn't speak to whether the end product from one tastes different than another, but plantarum is my go-to for this temp reason. Not having to worry about temp is a huge benefit.

Also, if you are interested, you could also do a hybrid "kettle" sour (I use quotes as it's not truly in the kettle). For example:
The past few mixed fermentation batches I've done (including sacc, lacto, pedio, and brett) haven't resulted in the tangy sourness I like from, say, the Duchesse. This especially happens when using the first generation/pitch of a lab mix, like WYeast's Roeselare. So what i have done is actually delay the pitch of the fermentation blend until day 2 or 3, but hit the cooled wort with an appropriate amount of lacto right away. That way I'm ensured to get the tangy lacto characteristics i've been missing, while still getting the complex flavors of a mixed fermentation.

But to answer your original question: if doing a kettle sour or using lacto up front, either do a starter or pitch a large amount - i personally use the swanson plantarum capsules and do 1 cap per gallon of wort. If using a lab mix, starter and buffer with Ca Carbonate as RPh Guy suggested.

If doing a mixed fermentation with no lacto activity up front, just pitch the slurry and wait a long time. No starter needed, as some manufacturers state that doing a starter could throw off the ratio of various microbes in there. The fact you said you're doing a starter for the yeast suggests you're doing an isolated sacc ferment first, then hitting it with a sour mix. So again, there, no starter for the mix.

FYI: for a flanders red, be prepared to wait for 12mo or longer for the flavor profile you're looking for, if trying for something like Duchesse.

 

[Tidwellc]

First, a kettle sour will not taste like Duchesse (also one of my favorites).
I enjoy Lacto/kettle sours, but they are far from a nice mixed fermentation sour with Brett.

A Lacto starter is not generally necessary, but may speed up souring.
A Lacto starter needs to be buffered with calcium carbonate (AKA chalk), and may benefit from a portion of simple sugar and yeast nutrient. It should not be aerated on a stir plate, but you may swirl it occasionally.
Decant off of the chalk layer when pitching.

Having a warm Lacto starter definitely helps, depending on the species.
I highly recommend using a culture with L. plantarum, which does not need to be kept warm and is generally the best at souring. It's great between 65-100°F.

Consider adding a bit of cherry flavor, oak, and/or malt vinegar to make your kettle sour taste more like Duchesse.

Cheers

That answers a ton of questions. I'm starting to think maybe I should lower the bar a bit and start with a gose or something to get used to this whole sour beer thing. It seems like a duchesse is something I'll need to work up to.

 

[Tidwellc]

This. I've little experience with platnarum vs brevis vs delbrueckii, so i couldn't speak to whether the end product from one tastes different than another, but plantarum is my go-to for this temp reason. Not having to worry about temp is a huge benefit.

Also, if you are interested, you could also do a hybrid "kettle" sour (I use quotes as it's not truly in the kettle). For example:
The past few mixed fermentation batches I've done (including sacc, lacto, pedio, and brett) haven't resulted in the tangy sourness I like from, say, the Duchesse. This especially happens when using the first generation/pitch of a lab mix, like WYeast's Roeselare. So what i have done is actually delay the pitch of the fermentation blend until day 2 or 3, but hit the cooled wort with an appropriate amount of lacto right away. That way I'm ensured to get the tangy lacto characteristics i've been missing, while still getting the complex flavors of a mixed fermentation.

But to answer your original question: if doing a kettle sour or using lacto up front, either do a starter or pitch a large amount - i personally use the swanson plantarum capsules and do 1 cap per gallon of wort. If using a lab mix, starter and buffer with Ca Carbonate as RPh Guy suggested.

If doing a mixed fermentation with no lacto activity up front, just pitch the slurry and wait a long time. No starter needed, as some manufacturers state that doing a starter could throw off the ratio of various microbes in there. The fact you said you're doing a starter for the yeast suggests you're doing an isolated sacc ferment first, then hitting it with a sour mix. So again, there, no starter for the mix.

FYI: for a flanders red, be prepared to wait for 12mo or longer for the flavor profile you're looking for, if trying for something like Duchesse.

I've only ever used regular old sacc. It's sounding like producing something on the level of Duchesse is going to require a blend of different organisms and maybe even blending mature and young batches? Not to mention a ton of aging. The recipe I got was basically just kettle souring with lacto and then pitching sacc to finish it. I think I'm gonna start with something a little simpler to get my feet wet and work my way up.

 

[cactusgarrett]

They're relatively easy in their own regards. Kettle souring is easy in that you just sour for a couple days up front, then boil (or not? ) and continue like usual. Mixed fermentation is easy in that you just pitch your bugs and wait. And wait. And wait.

Each has their own specific processes that you add on, but I wouldn't consider them difficult or hard to grasp.

 

[cactusgarrett]

I've only ever used regular old sacc. It's sounding like producing something on the level of Duchesse is going to require a blend of different organisms and maybe even blending mature and young batches? Not to mention a ton of aging. The recipe I got was basically just kettle souring with lacto and then pitching sacc to finish it. I think I'm gonna start with something a little simpler to get my feet wet and work my way up.

Yeah, quality sours almost always rely on blending, so if you're interested in putting out quality sours, be prepared to try your hand at blending. Mixes are easy - you just buy a specific pack from a lab (Wyeast, White Labs, et al.) that has the desired microbes. As you age your sour, you can also dump in dregs of commercial sours you have.

 

[TEWNCfarms]

I've only ever used regular old sacc. It's sounding like producing something on the level of Duchesse is going to require a blend of different organisms and maybe even blending mature and young batches? Not to mention a ton of aging. The recipe I got was basically just kettle souring with lacto and then pitching sacc to finish it. I think I'm gonna start with something a little simpler to get my feet wet and work my way up.

The roselaire Blend has yeast strains in it you don’t need another Sacch yeast. Why don’t you harvest the dregs from like a bottle or two of duchesse and you can do a starter with it (shaken not stirred is my preferred method) and then you can have a really close duchesse clone. Pitch a regular Sacch too. You’ll still have to wait at Least 6 months but probably longer. And then save roselaire for something else.

 

[TEWNCfarms]

Yeah, quality sours almost always rely on blending, so if you're interested in putting out quality sours, be prepared to try your hand at blending. Mixes are easy - you just buy a specific pack from a lab (Wyeast, White Labs, et al.) that has the desired microbes. As you age your sour, you can also dump in dregs of commercial sours you have.

I just read mad Fermentationist’s dregs harvest list, he says it’s filtered so it’s a little difficult to culture, but you can pitch roselaire as your main then add a bottle or two of duchesse just to make sure. Or try a starter with it for a week or more before you pitch to your batch

 

[RPh_Guy]

I wouldn't count on getting any Brett from Duchesse dregs due to the filtering.

 

[cactusgarrett]

Right - the Duchesse isn't a viable option, but you DO have to do some research to determine which sours are. I've found facebook messenger very helpful in this regard - many brewers are very receptive and forthcoming to questions on their beers.

 

[TEWNCfarms]

Right - the Duchesse isn't a viable option, but you DO have to do some research to determine which sours are. I've found facebook messenger very helpful in this regard - many brewers are very receptive and forthcoming to questions on their beers.

I didn’t think about messaging through Facebook, I usually message on IG.

So duchesse doesn’t have any dregs? I think they have some, just not much

 

[RPh_Guy]

Well, see if you can grow anything from it and let us know.

 

[isomerization]

I have never added chalk to my Lacto starters (OYL-605), saving 8 oz mason jars in the fridge for future batches.

I’ve read that the lactic acid produced during growth can inhibit the culture, but I haven’t seen this with my cultures (pic is starter after 48 hr at 80F). Could this be strain dependent or just a precaution?

Edit: now I’m wondering if my yields would be higher with buffering, the resulting kettle soured wort always gets where I want it on time though.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Buffering drastically increases Lacto growth.

There's some disagreement on the amount needed, but all the experts agree it's best.

More info on MTF
http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Lactobacillus

 

[isomerization]

Buffering drastically increases Lacto growth.

There's some disagreement on the amount needed, but all the experts agree it's best.

More info on MTF
http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Lactobacillus

Funny enough, the OYL-605 starter doesn’t say anything about adding a buffering agent. Reading further down, apparently L. planatarum grows well down to pH 3.0, wonder if that’s what I’m seeing?

 

[RPh_Guy]

L. plantarum is definitely an aggressive species.

The unbuffered starter probably isn't doing much and you could get away without it. Lots of people don't make starters. ... But if you do make a starter, you should buffer it if you actually want it to significantly increase cell count.

 

[TEWNCfarms]

I have never added chalk to my Lacto starters (OYL-605), saving 8 oz mason jars in the fridge for future batches.

I’ve read that the lactic acid produced during growth can inhibit the culture, but I haven’t seen this with my cultures (pic is starter after 48 hr at 80F). Could this be strain dependent or just a precaution?

Edit: now I’m wondering if my yields would be higher with buffering, the resulting kettle soured wort always gets where I want it on time though.

How do you make your starters? And you just save a cup from each batch and build it back up? This is what I want to do, but just using goodbelly right now. But would love to have a Lacto starter that has lots of different strains that I constantly keep

 

[isomerization]

How do you make your starters? And you just save a cup from each batch and build it back up? This is what I want to do, but just using goodbelly right now. But would love to have a Lacto starter that has lots of different strains that I constantly keep

Yes, I save a couple mason jars in the fridge (gone up to 6 months so far) and make a new starter when I need it. I give it 48 hours typically. I do 1L/5 gal wort, pitch the whole thing and wait another 48 hr, typically around pH 3.1-3.2 at that point.

L. plantarum is definitely an aggressive species.

The unbuffered starter probably isn't doing much and you could get away without it. Lots of people don't make starters. ... But if you do make a starter, you should buffer it if you actually want it to significantly increase cell count.

I’m not sure I agree (can’t do cell counts though). From my understanding, lactic acid production coincides with an increase in biomass. Therefore, the drop in ph is how I monitor growth. Now, could the growth be higher or at a faster rate, certainly. Might my observations only apply to the Omega blend, could be.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I’m not sure I agree (can’t do cell counts though).

I am providing recommendations based on measured cell growth.
This is not just theoretical. Buffering provides ideal growth and allows 100mL starters to provide more than enough cells to sour 5 gallons quickly.

https://eurekabrewing.wordpress.com/2015/05/18/evaluate-starter-media-to-propagate-lactobacillus-sp/

Various leaders in sour beer microbiology also suggest buffering:
"Jeff Mello from Bootleg Biology, Nick Impellitteri from The Yeast Bay, and Bryan from Sui Generis blog suggest that using the smaller amount of 1.5-2 grams of CaCO3 per liter is preferable" (MTF)

just using goodbelly right now. But would love to have a Lacto starter that has lots of different strains that I constantly keep

That's totally fine if that's what you want, but let me explain why I don't do that...

Cost -- Pure L plantarum is super inexpensive so wrangling my own doesn't provide financial benefit, unlike yeast.

Contamination -- A propagated Lacto starter is bound to get contaminated by yeast at some point (especially Lacto obtained from wild sources). When I add Lacto I want to know I'm just adding Lacto, for example I can bottle Lacto/Sacc sours without worrying about slow super-attenuation from wild yeast. You can't really propagate LAB from sour dregs without plating, otherwise you'll have a whole bunch of Brett in there.

Benefit -- What does using a Lacto blend bring to the table? I don't really have an answer. Some people say wild Lacto produce more interesting results, which makes sense but is unpredictable. Lots of species/strains aren't anywhere near as clean as the commercial cultures we use, and some produce undesirable compounds like acetic acid. The same could be said about wild yeast, so it just depends on your goals.
Over a few cycles, whichever single Lacto species/strain grows best and/or kills the other strains and/or tolerates the lowest pH at your propagation temperature will end up dominating your culture, leaving you with one strain anyway. It'd be a challenge to add new strains without making multiple Lacto starters and then combining them.
The plantarum species we commonly use provides a good level of clean sour quickly at a large range of temperatures. That's hard to match.

Cheers

 

[isomerization]

Sorry should have been more specific, I was referring to your statement regarding (probably) no benefit of an unbuffered starter.

While I have no intention of finding out, I’d guess a direct pitch of the 8 oz mason jar into 5 gal of wort would take a heck of lot longer to sour than the 1 L starter would. Maybe not though, could just be the 96 hr I am already putting in (48 for starter, 48 for wort)?

 

[RPh_Guy]

No harm in just doing what you know works.