First graff questions

[FoxFeud]

I'm going to attempt my first graff this weekend and I'm hoping to clear up a few things before I get started. I don't have a specific recipe pinned down, but I'm thinking I'll split the fermentables evenly by volume between wort (~1.050) and apple juice + a few pounds of pureed apples (~1 lbs/gallon), and ferment with Wyeast Biere de Garde (3725).

Now I've read up a little bit on brewing cider, but I'm curious how the considerations change when half the fermentables come from the wort. In particular:

• Is it necessary to treat the apple juice + pureed apples mixture with potassium sorbate prior to pitching the yeast?
• Am I risking bottle bombs if I bottle with priming sugar without potassium sorbate/pasteurization once the gravity stabilizes?

 

[Zymomancer]

1. I personally wouldn't really bother, but if you want to be safe and make sure any of the yeasts or microbes in the apples have no chance, go ahead! Just remember to wait 12-24 hours (I think?) before pitching.

2. If the gravity stabilizes, and you don't add any extra fermentable sugar beyond the priming sugar, there's no need to stabilize.

I haven't made a graff, but I would figure having the unfermentable sugars in the beer wort means there's no reason to backsweeten, thus no reason to stabilize after fermentation.

 

[bernardsmith]

Hi FoxFeud, I think you may mean potassium meta-bi-sulfate not sorbate. Add sorbate and you will kill the fermentation or at the very least stall it dramatically. IMO, if you add pasteurized apple juice then there are no wild yeasts or bacteria to be concerned about so no need to add the K-meta (pot. bi-sulfate (AKA campden tabs). K-meta is used for its sulfur to kill colonies of wild yeast before they develop into a large active community. K-sorbate is used WITH K-meta after fermentation has been completed - again it is effective really only with a small quantity of active yeast to prevent the yeast present from reproducing. The colony will be small because the wine maker has been aging and racking and re-racking several times, the wine off the yeast over many, many months before any K-sorbate is added.

If you add apples you may want to add k-meta 24 hours before you add them to your must (or wort).
If you add K-sorbate AFTER the fermentation has ended you won't prime the apple ale - you will have prevented any remaining yeast from reproducing and for all intents and purposes all the priming sugar will remain as a sweetener.

 

[Bearsmith]

You could also take a gallon of the apple juice and boil it with the pureed apples for 5-10 minutes to kill off any baddies.

 

[FoxFeud]

Thanks everyone, I think I have a better idea of what's going on now.

I would figure having the unfermentable sugars in the beer wort means there's no reason to backsweeten, thus no reason to stabilize after fermentation.

That was my thinking as well, I think the presence of the unfermentable sugars means I'll end up at a reasonable FG and not have to worry about bombs when bottling.

Add sorbate and you will kill the fermentation or at the very least stall it dramatically. IMO, if you add pasteurized apple juice then there are no wild yeasts or bacteria to be concerned about so no need to add the K-meta (pot. bi-sulfate (AKA campden tabs). K-meta is used for its sulfur to kill colonies of wild yeast before they develop into a large active community. K-sorbate is used WITH K-meta after fermentation has been completed - again it is effective really only with a small quantity of active yeast to prevent the yeast present from reproducing.

That really clears things up for me, thank you. It makes sense that making this primarily with apple juice would preclude needing to work around wild yeast and bacteria.

You could also take a gallon of the apple juice and boil it with the pureed apples for 5-10 minutes to kill off any baddies.

That's not a bad idea since the apples would be the only source of bugs. I'll probably just take my chances, the more I think about the more I doubt the critters from a few pounds of apples can outperform saison yeast.

 

[bernardsmith]

Brewers love heat - wine makers avoid heat like the plague.. Heat is great for making jam from fruit but it destroys any subtle flavors in the fruit. Brewers cannot use K-meta to kill wild yeast and mold (presumably because the heat destroys the effect by evaporating too quickly the sulfur) but wine makers use K-meta religiously...You have to decide whether you are "brewing" graff - or fermenting an apple ale....