First Competition Results: Discouraged

[xiang]

Competitions can give you great feedback to help improve your recipes or brewing techniques. For the most part, i have learned a lot from the unbiased feedback from comps. I like to experiment with the suggestions I have received and try to improve on my recipes or brewing process based on the unbiased suggestions received. But then again, you may get a few bad scores from a judge or judges who don't like a style they have been assigned and your score will reflect that.

I recently got scores back for my Nemesis IIPA from the Big Beers Comp and they went as follows, 39, 40, 41 and 34. I got great feedback from 3 of the judges, one of which is a pro brewer who scored it a 41. The judge that scored a 34 really struck a nerve. Not because he scored my beer a 34, but merely because his hand writing was so illegible that his comments can't be read due to his sloppy cursive hand writing. It makes his score sheet of no use to me whatsoever. I guess that is just the nature of some comps.

I knew going in what the faults of this particular batch were. I figured it to be 37 to 39 at best and stated so in hbt chat to saq, who placed 2nd with an overall score of 40 (congrats again Saq). It was nice to see that 3 of the judges hit on the same fault that I had perceived, which was a lack of a more aggressive bitterness. But the samples sent to the comp were noted as being within style by 3 of the judges. I brew what I like, which isn't always to BJCP style. And neither was this IIPA as far as bitterness, IMHO. It was close to one of my regional favorites "Hopslam", but without the spicey character and more of a citrus forward flavor. But the bitterness is dead on.

Competitions are great for getting constructive feedback on your brews. Just be prepared for a heavy dose of humble pie if you choose to put your brews out there.

 

[Bernie Brewer]

I couldn't disagree more with this.

If you want honest feedback, join a club and share your beer at the meetings. BJCP certified means they know how to pass a test; not actually taste beer. Some of my most hilarious score sheet comments came from BJCP certified judges last year:

"No color" (on a raspberry cider)
"Wrong hops for style" (on a 100% Saaz pils)
"Too much pepper!" (on a Delirium Tremens clone)
"Not enough spice" (on same Delirium clone)
"Would have scored better as a Tripel" (again on DT clone)

I know the judges are doing their best but it's an impossible task when you think about it logically from your own tasting experience. All it takes is one off-style beer at the start of the tasting flight to blow the judges' palates. Hell, even what they had for dinner the night before or the toothpaste they used that morning can dramatically alter their impression of a beer or the ability to detect flaws.

Competitions can be fun, but don't put too much faith in the scores, and unless a comment is consistent across score sheets, don't put much faith in those either. Think of it more as a lottery.

I'm not convinced that a local club can help, either. I was interested in a local club (which will remain nameless). I sat through a meeting and quickly realized that they really didn't know much about brewing, but rather they were more about fundraising events. When I mentioned things like decoction mashes, making your own candi sugar, washing your own yeast, and so on, the club PRESIDENT just looked at me with a blank stare as if I was speaking Klingon or something. They didn't have a clue. And when they passed around their beer for tasting, they all raved about it, but I wasn't impressed. So I didn't join.

 

[user 22118]

I also think that people look for flaws. I served someone a beer of mine and he said he could taste the water softening salts. That is complete and utter BS on so many levels. Yet he couldn't taste the diacetyl in his own beer.

I got two scores on a Belgian, one from a BJCP for 37 and the other from a local brewer for 30. That is vastly different, so meh.

 

[jkarp]

I'm not convinced that a local club can help, either. I was interested in a local club (which will remain nameless). I sat through a meeting and quickly realized that they really didn't know much about brewing, but rather they were more about fundraising events. When I mentioned things like decoction mashes, making your own candi sugar, washing your own yeast, and so on, the club PRESIDENT just looked at me with a blank stare as if I was speaking Klingon or something. They didn't have a clue. And when they passed around their beer for tasting, they all raved about it, but I wasn't impressed. So I didn't join.

Ouch. The clubs here in CO tend to be large and have some heavy-hitters in competitions.

 

[carnevoodoo]

I wouldn't discount the judges who are not recognized by the BJCP. Sure, the more practice you get at judging, the more likely you are to understand complexities in a specific style. However, I have to say from a personal standpoint that I have a better palate than a good deal of the judges I've met. I just signed up to judge for the first time ever, and when it comes down to it, I don't feel like my contributions will be any less valid than the next judge, even if he/she are experienced.

Sure, you think you deserve better scores. I might consider your beer to be something I'd rather dump. It is about perception and I think everyone tries their hardest on both ends. Do people make inaccurate statements, oh yes. Does their rank in the BJCP really matter that much? I don't think so.

I would really consider taking both beers to someone you know will be honest with you, and really picking them apart. Most of your friends won't do that. They'll just BS their way through it and try to stroke your ego. But that's why they're your friends.

So don't get discouraged, but also consider your flaws and faults and see where you can make improvements. You got honest feedback no matter if you disagree. Accept it even if it is with a grain of salt, and work harder to make better beer.

 

[FlyGuy]

The judge that scored a 34 really struck a nerve. Not because he scored my beer a 34, but merely because his hand writing was so illegible that his comments can't be read due to his sloppy cursive hand writing. It makes his score sheet of no use to me whatsoever. I guess that is just the nature of some comps.

No, that is unacceptable. I suggest that you do yourself a favour and send a polite message to that judge by emailing him/her (they should have put their email on the scoresheet) to translate their writing for you. Attach a scan so that they can read what they wrote. They will probably feel bad enough that they will do the translation and write better on the next set of scoresheets.

If the judge didn't put their email on their scoresheet, contact the competition organizer for it, which sends a subtle message to him/her as well. They may be unaware that a judge has a hand-writing problem, particularly if it is a large competition where you don't have the luxury of inspecting every scoresheet before they go out.

 

[mkling]

All of this seems to be about the different sources of bias that go into all judgments, including taste perception.

There are multiple sources of bias, and even though every judge in all these situations has biases, entering a competition has fewer sources of bias than almost any other source judging of taste (self-tasting, friend tasting, beer club tasting). At least when you send it off to a competition it is judged blind without the judges knowing whose beer they are drinking. We've all had someone else's homebrew or cooking and been polite about it, even when they ask for our "honest" opinion. You can't escape that social pressure. Our own tastes also can't help but deceive us. I can't help but like beers I or a friend made simple because I or a friend made it, and this knowledge changes the way my brain actually experiences the beer. At least when you send beer off to a competition, you're removing all those biases -- the judges don't know you.

The biases that occur within the judge, though, are still there. They each still have their own biases & preferences about what they like in each style of beer, but this is true for everyone, competition judges & friends. Hopefully, the extra knowledge & experience that comes from being a BJCP judge decreases these biases, but it can't eliminate them.

Overall, competitions are going to give you more accurate feedback than most other sources of information about your beer. They are still biased, but less so than other sources of information about the quality of your beer.

 

[Hermit]

I have to say from a personal standpoint that I have a better palate than a good deal of the judges I've met.

This goes back to what I said earlier in the thread. Many people simply don't recognize their own limitations. In college I learned that when viewing Rorschach tests (aka 'ink blot') technical people like myself tend to see lots of different 'things' in the blot while artistic people tend to see one thing, like a bird, flower, etc.. because they see the object as a whole instead of dissecting it like the technical folks do.

Strangely enough, when it comes to the palate, I cannot pick out all of the different things people report tasting in a brew. In tasting, I just get the 'overall' impressions. Maybe two different things at most. Like starts out citrus and ends up bitter.... So, no way I would ever consider even becoming a judge. My palate isn't qualified and I know it.

 

[Hermit]

No, that is unacceptable. I suggest that you do yourself a favour and send a polite message to that judge by emailing him/her (they should have put their email on the scoresheet) to translate their writing for you. Attach a scan so that they can read what they wrote. They will probably feel bad enough that they will do the translation and write better on the next set of scoresheets.

If the judge didn't put their email on their scoresheet, contact the competition organizer for it, which sends a subtle message to him/her as well. They may be unaware that a judge has a hand-writing problem, particularly if it is a large competition where you don't have the luxury of inspecting every scoresheet before they go out.

In high school they made me take typing because even I couldn't read what I wrote. I was going through some old notebooks trying to declutter my life and looked at some of the stuff. No clue... Really... I guess another reason I should never judge.

 

[Bernie Brewer]

No, that is unacceptable. I suggest that you do yourself a favour and send a polite message to that judge by emailing him/her (they should have put their email on the scoresheet) to translate their writing for you. Attach a scan so that they can read what they wrote. They will probably feel bad enough that they will do the translation and write better on the next set of scoresheets.

If the judge didn't put their email on their scoresheet, contact the competition organizer for it, which sends a subtle message to him/her as well. They may be unaware that a judge has a hand-writing problem, particularly if it is a large competition where you don't have the luxury of inspecting every scoresheet before they go out.

Methinks that the email address on the sheet is most likely illegible, too..............

 

[mychalg9]

Dont forget that the judges are basing your beer on how true to style it is, not necessarily on how tasty it is in general.

 

[Synovia]

I also think that people look for flaws. I served someone a beer of mine and he said he could taste the water softening salts. That is complete and utter BS on so many levels. Yet he couldn't taste the diacetyl in his own beer.

The thing is, people can taste different things. Its very possible that he can't taste diacetyl AT ALL, and you can't taste something hes picking up in your beer.

 

[carnevoodoo]

The thing is, people can taste different things. Its very possible that he can't taste diacetyl AT ALL, and you can't taste something hes picking up in your beer.

Truth. A guy that sat next to me in Siebel really had a hard time with diacetyl, and a few others could not pick up acetaldehyde. Not everyone can detect everything.

 

[BierMuncher]

My first competition I was dusting off my mantle to make room for all the trophies I was going to win.

Best score I got was a 29...out of 9 entries.

Just about made me give up homebrewing. Instead, I took the judges scoresheets and did a tasting of my entries I had stashed. Turns out...they were right.

Instead of trying to figure out why the judges are wrong about your beer...assume for a moment they are right and go back to work to improve your product.

My next competition a few months later I entered four beers (four of the same styles I'd bombed out in earlier.) I took a 1st and two 2nds.

Don't despair. It is inevitable what happens to a first time competitor.

 

[carnevoodoo]

Good graph. The five beers I'm dropping off for comp today are really just things I had laying around and I don't have high expectations for. I'm guessing 33-35s for most of them, maybe a bit higher on the barleywine. That said, if they all come back as lower, I won't care. I know my stuff well enough to know what's a great beer and what's a good beer.

That said, after tasting a bunch of homebrewed beer at a popularity contest type event, I havve no problems thinking I make pretty damn good beer. But it has taken a lot of patience and practice to get to that point.

 

[Lodovico]

My first competition I was dusting off my mantle to make room for all the trophies I was going to win.

Best score I got was a 29...out of 9 entries.

Just about made me give up homebrewing. Instead, I took the judges scoresheets and did a tasting of my entries I had stashed. Turns out...they were right.

Instead of trying to figure out why the judges are wrong about your beer...assume for a moment they are right and go back to work to improve your product.

My next competition a few months later I entered four beers (four of the same styles I'd bombed out in earlier.) I took a 1st and two 2nds.

Don't despair. It is inevitable what happens to a first time competitor.

I didn't really say the judges were wrong about my beer. And I certainly didn't think I would score in the 40's!! I was just surprised that a Sweet Stout with 1.25 pounds of Lactose in it, had a comment that I should try using lactose in it next time. I think I have a decent palate and it's pretty hard to miss the lactose in this beer.

I wasn't expecting medals and if you read all of my posts in this thread, I'm more disappointed about the credentials (or lack of) than I am the feedback.

To me, it just makes the feedback less valuable. If it were from BJCP judges, I would take more stock in what was being said. Now I have this feedback and I'm not sure if I should try to change some things based on it or not.

 

[david_42]

Heart of the Valley runs one of the oldest (maybe the oldest) homebrew competition in the USA. We strive to have one BJCP judge on each flight. Not easy when you're looking at 300+ beers. Everyone who judges is required to completely fill out each form and stick to the style guide.

As far as your beers, with 80% of homebrewers being hopheads, an English IPA is risky. Too many people expect the enamel-removing properties and grapefruit juice aroma of a Left-coast IPA. If they had been following the guide, I think you would have done better. Sweetness is very subjective, the ability to taste lactose varies by a factor of ten from one person to another. Yooper has commented on how she finds it nasty sweet, I can barely taste it.

BK makes a good point, if the scores are all over the place, the judges probably didn't discuss their impressions. My first judging, I scored a beer very highly. When we went over the guide, I knocked 20 points off. Great Mild, but not a Bitter.

 

[Wayne1]

All of you bring up excellent points. Everyone tastes a little differently. That is why there are at least three judges for each category. Most times five, if the organizer can get the judges.

As far as rank of judges, remember these are all volunteers. Some have to travel pretty far to participate in judging. They are there to give back to you. Take their feedback in the spirit in which it was intended. to help you, to the best of their knowledge, to become a better brewer.

If you want more experienced judges to give you feedback, try entering a regional or national competition in a larger city. Chances are there will be a greater pool of judges to be drawn upon.

Judges do need to be within 6 points in their spread. If there is a great difference in points, the beer is discussed and points changed. It is in this regard that the lead judge is a great help in assisting the other judges. I have also had my mind changed by another judge pointing out a flaw that my palette was not as sensitive to.

Judging beer is hard work. You have to put aside the enjoyment you get from consuming your favorite beverage to picking everything about it apart. After a weekend of judging, I just want to sit down and ENJOY without worrying about if the hop chosen is appropriate to style or if the phenolic taste is from iodophor or chlorophenol.

 

[carnevoodoo]

To me, it just makes the feedback less valuable. If it were from BJCP judges, I would take more stock in what was being said. Now I have this feedback and I'm not sure if I should try to change some things based on it or not.

I think you're making a mistake here. Sure, not all feedback is perfect, but just because someone has passed a test doesn't mean they're better tasters. You seem to be pointing out an issue that you can use as justification for your scores not being as high as you hoped. It is an ego check for sure, but don't dismiss it entirely.

 

[NYCHomebrewer]

First of all, not being BJCP certified/recognized etc. doesn't mean that your comments are invalid. Nor does having a certification make you infallible

I've stewarded at competitions before and have entered my beers to be judged. My experience followed almost exactly the graphs above. I started out thinking my beers were the best, was devastated by the judge's scores, and got really down on the hobby. But I read the scores, I looked at what they said and what the score sheets actually said. I didn't agree with everything, but I took it and worked with it and concentrated on making changes to my process to make better beers.

Since first competition my average beer score has gone up in every competition thanks to the constructive criticism of BJCP judges and layperson judges alike.

Also, after my first crushing defeat, my SWMBO pointed out that, according to the sheet a 24-26 score is actually pretty good. Scores in the 40-50 range verge on perfection and flawlessness. Do you really think that you brew flawless perfection? That your beers are the next best thing to ambrosia or the elixir of the gods? I don't think mine are that good. If they were I might as well hang up my hydrometer because there would be no room for improvement.

I've also sat there and listened to the judges discuss beers. I know how much thought and effort goes into each beer. They don't just sip the beers and arrange them from best tasting to worst. They dissect each beer for even miniscule off flavors and look for tiny flaws and variations from the style. The results can be very different from simply which beer tastes the best. As one judge put it, you can enter the worlds best pilsner in the stout competition and still lose to the world's worst stout. Because they are judging to style.

And pointing out your beer's flaws is the only way that you are going to make your beer better. At a recent competition, the Best In Show received about 40/50 points and the judges still tried to point out some areas of the beer that the brewer could work on to make it even better. 24-25 points suddenly doesn't sound that bad does it?

If you want to win medals and awards, you should concentrate on brewing beers that not many other people brew. Brew sour beers, or spiced beers, or smoked beers. If you brew an average sour beer, in a category with only three entrants, you are probably going to place. In a category like IPA or Stout or Porter, where a competition could get as many as 40-50 entrants... well, with competition that fierce the judges have to be particularly aggressive in their judging and your beer has to truly be as close to flawless as it can be to win.

Just my opinion though.

 

[remilard]

I think the best advice you've gotten is to enter larger competitions. Harder to win, but better judging in general.

The best judging (in terms of nearly everyone being a BJCP member) will be at AHA club only competitions, 2nd Round NHC and MCAB. You generally have to earn your way into these, but the quality of judging is consistently high.

I can't recommend a particular competition in the NE but the competitions that qualify for MCAB are all excellent, so that would be a good place to start.

And I guess you have to learn how to parse the judges comments. If they say your sweet stout has no process flaws but just isn't sweet enough, maybe you really like the level of sweetness yours has and so you can consider that positive feedback and choose not to go sweeter. On the other hand, if you want to brew to compete and you get similar feedback on that same stout in other competitions, you know exactly what to do.

ETA: I just got sheets back from the Upper Mississippi Mashout, which is a very big and very good comp. 14 score sheets, 3 are BJCP Grand Master or higher. Almost all of the flights had a National or higher judge on them. All of the score sheets, even the non-BJCP judge score sheets, were good or very good (in terms of helpful feedback and descriptions) which likely reflects the value of pairing the less experienced judges with more experienced judges.

And I got some celeia hops as a prize which is weird because I had never heard of them until yesterday when I had a beer at Free State Brewery made with them.

 

[Lodovico]

I think you're making a mistake here. Sure, not all feedback is perfect, but just because someone has passed a test doesn't mean they're better tasters. You seem to be pointing out an issue that you can use as justification for your scores not being as high as you hoped. It is an ego check for sure, but don't dismiss it entirely.

I'm sorry, but no I think you are missing my point. I'm not using the lack of BJCP judges to justify my scores. I just said a couple of posts ago that had they been BJCP judges, maybe I would have scored even LOWER.

My point is that I don't know how much stock to put into the suggestions and feedback on these beers because I don't know how qualified these judges were.

Does that make sense? I realize that there are judges that are not BJCP certified that can contribute valuable feedback but that doesn't help me if I don't know if these were quality judges.

I know others here are differing on this but I still feel that if they were BJCP certified, I would at least feel like it is solid, quality feedback versus knowing absolutely nothing about the level of experience of the judge.

So honestly, it's not an ego check thing. It's not like these came back rated Problematic or Fair, they scored Good.

I have already learned one lesson that was consistent among folks. Hop aroma needs to be jacked up for competitions.

 

[carnevoodoo]

Well, I still think that rank means very little, and you're putting a lot of emphasis on a system that comes down to a set of judgement calls. I really don't think they're just pulling people off the street to judge beer. These will all be people that are really interested in beer, so you'll have a lot of people who know what they're doing. Taking a test doesn't make someone better.

 

[Synovia]

Well, I still think that rank means very little, and you're putting a lot of emphasis on a system that comes down to a set of judgement calls. I really don't think they're just pulling people off the street to judge beer. These will all be people that are really interested in beer, so you'll have a lot of people who know what they're doing. Taking a test doesn't make someone better.

I think thats the problem though, atleast with a BJCP judge, you know that they're aware that they're supposed to be judging to style, etc. Some random Competition may just be pulling guys from the local home brew club to judge, and they may not know exactly what they're trying to do, or what they're looking for.

 

[Yooper]

Also, after my first crushing defeat, my SWMBO pointed out that, according to the sheet a 24-26 score is actually pretty good. Scores in the 40-50 range verge on perfection and flawlessness.

That was going to be my point. When I judged a county fair BJCP comp last summer, the highest score I gave was a 41, and most scores were in the mid 20's- low 30s. That is actually a good score. A 27 score is considered a "very good" beer. There were more than a few beers that got under 19 due to major flaws, but I'm sure the brewer didn't like those scores.

I've received only a couple of 40-45 scores, and those were for my absolute best beers. I've received far more 30-39 scores. One of my favorite beers got a 27! (And I still love that beer, but really it's out of style).

I've had comments like "would be a world-class beer if it was dryhopped" on a beer that had three ounces of dryhopping. Well, I guess they wanted more of a hops nose than they got. Maybe the hops faded some, or maybe I was last in the flight and their palates were tired. Either way, I took the comments and decided that I liked the beer even with a "meh" score.

As David_42 pointed out, some of us are able to taste things that others can't. I can taste lactose a mile away, and I can taste diacetyl in a very small amount. Some people can't taste diacetyl at all, or only if it's a butterscotch bomb. If the scores are close, that means the judges did come to an agreement on the score. The comment "needs lactose" might just mean that the sweet stout wasn't as sweet as expected. That could be related to the recipe, or the attenuation level of that beer.

 

[NYCHomebrewer]

It is worth it to point out that there really aren't that many BJCP certified or even recognized judges out there. I think you can consider yourself lucky if your beer is judged by at least two judges, and one of them is recognized or certified.

I think where that certification is important and really shines is in being able to recognize and differentiate the various faults. Before my first competition I had read lots of different terms like diacetyl, ester, acetaldehyde, DMS, phenols etc. I even thought I knew what they meant. It wasn't until I sat down and tasted a beer with someone who had real experience that I learned how to differentiate a phenol from an ester etc. Even so, with my experience I will probably miss some of those in a complex beer.

At my most recent competition, the system was set up as much to give the new judges and stewards experience as it was to give feedback to the entrants. The two or more judges would sit down and taste the beer individually, write down their thoughts and comments and scores, and then discuss and reconcile their scores. If one person thought the beer was way better or worse than the other, they needed to sort of walk the other judge through their reasoning. The end result wasn't just an average of the two initial scores but, rather, a sort of arrived at score. Sometimes it resulted in the less experienced judge raising or lowering their scores a little or the more experienced judge discovering something new on his or her palate that the less experienced judge had caught and adjusting their score accordingly.

At the local level then, I would expect a lot of inexperienced judges. But I think even with their inexperience, they tend to arrive at the right conclusions and give good feedback. And, after all, no one is born a judge. We need inexperienced judges judging beer so they can become experienced judges. As you get to more exclusive contests, say contests where all the entrants are already winners of regional contests, you are going to find almost all the judges are experienced and BJCP certified.

What I would take from a judge telling me that I should use lactose (when I had already used lactose) would be that, at least to that judge, my beer seemed a little out of style for lack of milky sweetness. If I know how much lactose went in, I might consider other ways I could accentuate the sweetness. Maybe mashing a little higher to give the beer more mouthfeel, or using a slightly maltier base malt to back up and support that lactose a little. Maybe a lower carbonation level would lead to a creamier "sweeter" beer.

Carbonation is one thing that a lot of home brewers seem to forget or think they can't address, yet it can have a huge and often detrimental affect on the final product. Too often I think we just toss in our 4-5 oz of dextrose given to us by the LHBS and leave it at that. But some styles should have half that and others almost twice (and thats not even taking into account volume of wort differences and the change of sugar contribution necessary to account for those).

 

[Lodovico]

Lots of good points and information here. I'm feeling a little better about this. I guess for a first competition, it's decent. I definitely got crushed on Aroma scoring which should be an easier thing to improve on.

Thanks for all the good advice.

 

[carnevoodoo]

Yeah. Don't get down. Use this as fuel to make the best beer you can. That's all what we really want to do!

 

[Lodovico]

Ok, I've already learned something big from this first competition.

* Don't ever go on a homebrew forum and be pissed and questioning feedback and judge credentials until you go home and try the beer that you entered again.

Even from the non-BJCP judges, I feel like the feedback is pretty accurate. When I read the comments as I drink the beer, I can appreciate many of the critiques they are giving.

It's time to tighten things up in the old brew house and examine all aspects of my process. Cheers.

 

[hook_dupin]

I've just sent my brew off to my first competition. I'm glad to see that there's decent feedback. Without a local homebrew club, my feedback so far has been "Dude...this is good shiz!" from my bros.