First cider brew - i need help!

[Uncomfortabrew]

Hi, i had 25kg of apples from my apple tree this year and thought i might aswell start my brewing career here.
I pressed my apples after letting it sit with pectine enzyme and got around 16 liters of apples juice with gravity reading of 1042 - then added honey and got a reading of 1056.
I placed 8 liters in to diffrent 14 liters carboys because i wanted to try two diffrent yeasts - i tried the white labs english cider and the white labs funky cider. (i know i probably got to much headspace in these carboys but that is too late now and i will have to try)
I added sodium to stop natural yeast in a hope for the best chances of it being a succesful first brew.
When i got back 36 hours later some activity had already started even though i had not put in any yeast - the two had about 4 milimeters of white foam and some brownish goo on the side of the carboy (added pictures of that which is still left after adding my own yeast)
So my first thought was to get my yeast started fast with a starter and adding som yeast nutrition to that. Added the diffrent starters to the to carboys.
The foam dissapeared and the yeast started to activate, with around 5 seconds between each blop in the yeast-lock and a lot carbonation going on in the carboy but no foam anymore.
Now, 5 days later the activity have dropped to around 30-40 seconds between the blops and i was wondering if maybe i should get the liquid in a new carboy or should i wait till the carbonation/fermentation stops? I am mainly worried about the brown goo might contaminate the carboy.
The pictures added are taking today

Thank you for your time

 

[bracconiere]

I added sodium

sodium reacts explosively with water? generates Hydrogen gas and lye, with enough heat to detonate the gas....

but seriously, sodium what? i'm curious...

I've never used fresh pressed juice, but i would probably just heat it to 165f for 15-20 mins to pasteurize it...

and fermenter looks like mine, should be fine....

 

[Uncomfortabrew]

https://www.maltbazaren.dk/shop/kaliumsulfit-campden-3856p.html
Haha campden is what i used, sorry not sodium - i have no idea where that sodium idea came from.
But the the recipe i used said campden to stop the natural yeast, so thats what i tried. Been told the pasteurization changes the flavor so went for campden.
When do i know it is time to switch it to a new carboy?
Thanks for the reply

 

[bucketnative]

Don't heat pasteurize, unless you like the taste of cooked apples. The better orchards cold pasteurize with UV to avoid this.

Sodium metabisulfite, added at a rate of 1 tablet per gallon (3.8 L) for 24 hours, is recommended to kill/inhibit wild bacteria and yeast. Then your pitched yeast can take over fermenting.

I think you are fine. I would not worry about the brown goo, it is typical from fresh pressed juice. It's just left over particulate from the apples. I will either stay on top of the must/cider or eventually settle out. If some remains on the surface, just rack from under it.

I typically wait a week or two after fermentation stops to transfer the cider to a secondary vessel (with almost no headspace) for further clarification (settling out of yeast and other detritus) and aging. I know people will say you don't need to age/wait months... but I follow my own practice and let it sit in the secondary vessel for at least a month before bottle conditioning (for at least another month) before drinking. You should follow your own desired path.

 

[Blacksmith1]

I like to let mine bulk age for 4 months then bottle.
Just seems smoother to me. Might be my imagination tho'.

 

[Uncomfortabrew]

Thanks a lot!!
The whole cider thing is pretty hard to figure out because it seems like everybody has their own religion.
But great thank you, i will probably have to go out and buy some smaller carboys then?
Heard the more the cider sit, slower the fermentation equals better flavor profile so thats what i am aiming for.
My plan is to bottle it at final gravity reading around 1020 and if what i have been told is right i should ferment about 1% (equal to 7-8 on the hydrometer) alcohol in the bottle before stopping so the final product in the bottle will have a reading around 1012 - 1013 on hydrometer
Is this correct or might i end out with a lot of bottle bombs from this approach?
Heard some different approaches as to let i ferment all dry and then sweeten it to get to carbonation going in the bottle

 

[bracconiere]

Don't heat pasteurize, unless you like the taste of cooked apples. The better orchards cold pasteurize with UV to avoid this.

thanks! i'll keep that in mind...lol, but i do love apple pie

edit: but this came from some .edu site? (i was looking into apple juice pasteurizing)

 

[bracconiere]

attachment pdf?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Sodium metabisulfite is the ingredient in some Campden tablets. Some are potassium metabisulfite. The metal in the salt is irrelevant, but potassium is preferred because it's flavor neutral, unlike sodium.
The product you linked is potassium metabisulfite.

The metabisulfite dissociates into sulfite ions. Some of the sulfite forms molecular SO2, which is responsible for the anti-microbial activity. The pH of the juice determines the amount of molecular SO2 formed, so it's a good idea to base the amount of sulfite on the pH if possible.

Is using sulfite pre-fermentation necessary? No, but it does increase the predictability of the resulting cider when using unpasteurized juice.
However, I've had excellent results from the wild yeast alone.

Temperature control is one of the most important factors to reducing the production of off-flavors, especially with wild microbes present. You generally want to let it ferment under 60°F (15°C). This should also be comfortable for any wine yeast you pitch.

The lower temperature slows down the fermentation, reduces development of off-flavors, and also reduces the amount of apple aroma/flavor that is lost to volatilization.
That's why people commonly say "slower is better".
If you let it ferment too warm in the beginning, you can't get back the esters (aromatic flavor compounds) that were already lost.

Transferring to secondary vessel is not necessary. The only time I personally recommend transferring is if the yeast produce hydrogen sulfide (smells like rotten eggs or farts). In this case, you want to transfer off of the yeast sediment as soon as fermentation completes.

It's important to protect the cider from oxygen once the yeast is pitched. Otherwise it will oxidize and/or microbes will produce acetic acid (vinegar). Adding sulfite after fermentation completes is a good idea if you plan to bulk age because it prevents both oxidation and unwanted microbial activity.

For bottling you have lots of options. Here are a few of the more commonly used methods:

1. Allow it to ferment to completion and bottle still.
2. Allow it to ferment to completion and prime for carbonation.
3. Allow it to ferment to completion, stabilize with sorbate + sulfite, sweeten with juice, and bottle still.
4. Allow it to ferment to completion, add excess juice, monitor carbonation; heat pasteurize when it reaches the desired amount of carbonation.
5. Bottle while it's still fermenting; monitor carbonation; heat pasteurize when it reaches the desired amount of carbonation.
6. Ferment dry and prime. Use a non-fermentable sweetener like xylitol or sucralose to add sweetness.

There are also other options like simply putting it in the refrigerator when it hits your desired sweetness (perhaps using plastic bottles).

There's a lot to learn about cider and wine making. Reading some books would be a good start. Cheers!

 

[bracconiere]

 

[Uncomfortabrew]

Thanks a lot for that thorough explanation, really appreciated!
I do though have a lot of headspace on the carboys i am using at the moment? Would i be better too leave it in these ones and the let them ferment until bottling or buy smaller some smaller carboys and pitch them over here when fermentation is stopping for, a minimum of headspace?

 

[bucketnative]

Thanks a lot!!
The whole cider thing is pretty hard to figure out because it seems like everybody has their own religion.

One of the things that's nice about cider making is that, to me anyway, it is easy to experiment to find your own "religion." As you have discovered, it is pretty easy to ferment small batches, and try new things. To me, it's much easier than beer.

 

[Uncomfortabrew]

And isnt there a significant change in flavor if i choose to heat pasteurize after the desired carbonation is reached?

 

[RPh_Guy]

I do though have a lot of headspace on the carboys i am using at the moment? Would i be better too leave it in these ones and the let them ferment until bottling or buy smaller some smaller carboys and pitch them over here when fermentation is stopping for, a minimum of headspace?

That depends.
Are you planning to bulk age?
Will you be opening the fermenter for any reason (e.g. to taste or take gravity readings)?
If the answer to either of these questions is no, then no secondary vessel is needed.

On the other hand, if you open the fermenter, it's important to reduce the amount of headspace in order to limit oxygen exposure.
If you leave it closed, then the headspace is filled with pure CO2 from fermentation and the amount of headspace doesn't matter.
If you bottle it soon, a couple days of oxygen exposure probably won't be overly harmful (especially if it's kept cool), but still should be avoided if possible.

I can't comment on flavor change from Pasteurization since I don't do that. I don't like sweet cider or the risk of explosion.

 

[Chalkyt]

My usual response to these situations is...Spend 30 bucks or so and buy Claude Jolicoeur's book "The new cider makers handbook". Together with advice from this forum you will find it an invaluable reference and guide.

 

[Uncomfortabrew]

Okay, i should probably have aimed for adding the carbonation sugar after the fermentation stops, because if i do that now i will end out with a alchohol percentage around 8.5% which seems kinda high when i compare it to other ciders out there.
So i guess if i want a carbonated cider my best try is to pitch the cider to smaller carboys inbetween when fermentation slows down and before fermentation stops in the original carboys and try my luck getting them bottled around 1010 on the hydrometer and getting a dry cider with carbonation.
Or the other solution would be bottling around 1015-1020 on the hydrometer and try my luck with the french method dégorgement, if the fermentation dont stop and carbonation get too high, its the method where you make to yeast settle at the top of the bottle by storing the bottles, which you have put a bottle cap on, upside down and then freeze only the top, open it at the pressure will make all the frozen liquid including the yeast pressed out of the bottle and then you give it a cork.
Or there is always the heat pasteurization, but this one i dont really like the idea of.
Have any of you had experience with dégorgement? Can see that a lot of the high end ciders use this method to clear the cider and stop fermentation.
And thanks for the tip with book, been looking for something like that.

 

[Uncomfortabrew]

One of the things that's nice about cider making is that, to me anyway, it is easy to experiment to find your own "religion." As you have discovered, it is pretty easy to ferment small batches, and try new things. To me, it's much easier than beer.

Haha, i see your point - but when you are a perfectionist this really makes it hard but also really healthy! But in the end i am just happy if i get something drinkable in the end - worst case scenario i still got a apple tree next year.

By the way i am really grateful for all the replies i am getting! You guys have been extremely helpful! Much appreciated!

 

[RPh_Guy]

If you bottle at 1.010 and don't pasteurize, your bottles will gush or explode.

Ferment dry and prime appropriately.
Or
Pasteurize after appropriate carbonation if you want it sweet.

More advanced methods are not for beginners. Something will go wrong and you may severely injure yourself or have a huge mess to clean.

Hope this is clear

 

[Uncomfortabrew]

Hereby noted.
Why do you pitch to new carboys while fermenting? Is it only to clear the liquid - is to remove nutrient from the yeast to make ferment slower and thereby creating better cider? Or is it the opposite, to kick start the fermentation back in to life again?

 

[Maylar]

Racking off the lees reduces yeast biomass and slows the ferment down. It also gives you much less lees after the cider clears. I usually rack to secondary at about 1.010.