First Cider/Apfelwien ever

[SouthPhillyBr3w3r]

I usually brew beer, but I wanted to experiment with cider. I'm doing a pretty basic recipe so I dont expect it to be amazing, but here is what I am using:

OG: 1.083
5 gal Motts Apple Juice
3 lb white sugar
1 lb brown sugar
1 lb honey
2.5 tsp DAP/Urea mix
1 packet Fermentis Safcider (I ordered champagne yeast but they sent the wrong thing)

Not a lot of activity after 12 hours, so I am thinking of building a small starter of US-05 and adding it in.

I expect it to be pretty boozy, but if it isn't good I can do other things with it that aren't HBT forum material.

Any thoughts on the recipe?

 

[bernardsmith]

Just my two cents. Cider ain't wine and while wine generally has an ABV of about 12 % cider has an ABV of about 5-6%. The key point is that with any alcohol - beer as well as wines (and ciders) balance is 99.999% of the secret (the other .001 is patience) and when you up the alcohol simply by adding more fermentable sugar - not flavor - then you are likely to make a wine that is out of balance.
That said, I don't know that Mott's cider is balanced for anything other than use as a soft drink. Blends of apples for hard cider usually have more sugar, more acidity, more tannins than those blended for the soft drinks market. But yer pays yer money and yer takes yer chance.
Bottom line: I guess I am asking why add more sugar? Better might be to simply ferment the juice. IF - IF you really want a stronger wine - and you will pay $$ for this you might freeze the Motts and as it thaws collect the first 1/3 runnings. That should up the gravity by about 100% (a potential ABV of about 11 -12%) and will concentrate the flavors. (that point about balance, again) BUT you will need about 3 gallons of the AJ to make 1 gallon of apple wine (what's left is more or less water).

 

[SouthPhillyBr3w3r]

Just my two cents. Cider ain't wine and while wine generally has an ABV of about 12 % cider has an ABV of about 5-6%. The key point is that with any alcohol - beer as well as wines (and ciders) balance is 99.999% of the secret (the other .001 is patience) and when you up the alcohol simply by adding more fermentable sugar - not flavor - then you are likely to make a wine that is out of balance.
That said, I don't know that Mott's cider is balanced for anything other than use as a soft drink. Blends of apples for hard cider usually have more sugar, more acidity, more tannins than those blended for the soft drinks market. But yer pays yer money and yer takes yer chance.
Bottom line: I guess I am asking why add more sugar? Better might be to simply ferment the juice. IF - IF you really want a stronger wine - and you will pay $$ for this you might freeze the Motts and as it thaws collect the first 1/3 runnings. That should up the gravity by about 100% (a potential ABV of about 11 -12%) and will concentrate the flavors. (that point about balance, again) BUT you will need about 3 gallons of the AJ to make 1 gallon of apple wine (what's left is more or less water).

I can't post to hbt why I wanted it so strong but it rhymes with Snapple Randy

 

[bernardsmith]

Sure but my bet is that snapple randy is either crap or else it starts with a nicely balanced wine. If the raw materials are crap then the finished product is not likely to be very different... Silk purses and sow's ears and all that... But hey, if all that is important is the buzz then buzz buzz buzz..

 

[SouthPhillyBr3w3r]

Sure but my bet is that snapple randy is either crap or else it starts with a nicely balanced wine. If the raw materials are crap then the finished product is not likely to be very different... Silk purses and sow's ears and all that... But hey, if all that is important is the buzz then buzz buzz buzz..

I hear ya.
Not really only worried about the buzz. Just want to do a practice run before I spend a bunch of $$ on freshly pressed locally grown apple cider. My HBC does a bulk cider buy from a local farm every fall, so I'll be trying to make the good stuff after the summer. I was hoping to use better ingredients, but didn't feel comfortable buying 5 gallons of pressed cider at $5 per half gallon without ever having made it before. Mostly wanted to see how the yeast strain I have does in apple juice, how much nutrient, etc before I make some pricey liquid gold. I'll likely be doing 10 gallons from our bulk cider buy and I really don't wanna screw that up. With this batch, I will probably age it on oak and then make a half gallon of high quality cider to blend in and balance it.

All this being said, I understand the old mantra of "garbage in, garbage out."

 

[bernardsmith]

Not everyone on this forum agrees but my preference for cider is 71B yeast and after that D47. 71B has an affinity for malic acid - the main acid in apples and my guess is that a sweet Motts probably looks for more malic than a drier cider wants..

 

[TGFV]

With ciders you can always add tannins to help balance cheaper juice. And as for ABV there are plenty of apfelweins, apple wines and other cider recipoes that go that high or higher.

Has it started to kick off yet (either krauzen or soft bubbles)?

 

[SouthPhillyBr3w3r]

Oh yeah. It's dropped from 1.083 to 1.028 in 6 days. I've been periodically degassing it with a vigorous stir for a minute to help avoid yeast stress. It had slowed down around 1.033 so I added a little more DAP/Urea solution and it picked right back up. I imagine it will take around 8-10 days total to hit terminal gravity and another week or so to clear a little. I'll probably pull it off the yeast cake after 14-21 days total ferm time and let it clear for another week or two. It tastes very much like yeast/apples/alcohol right now. Supposedly, the yeast I used has an 11% alcohol tolerance, so I am hoping I won't have to add fresh yeast to help it hit its FG.

I am building an O2 wand/regulator setup for the disposable oxygen bottles, but didn't have the ability to use pure oxygen on this batch. I poured the juice into the fermenter in a slow, steady stream from 5' up, then continued to aerate it with a whisk before pitching. I used a rehydrated pack of Safcider dry yeast, but didn't have the chance to build a starter, so I would have preferred to give it some O2, since it is so big.

 

[TGFV]

Expect to be aging this for awhile.

My basic cider (without sugar added) hits 8% and is hot and dry for a good 6months and improves from there, as most ciders do (6-12months being what's good for most ciders), but that is with unfermentables sugar added as well as racking on to cubed apples to help it regain flavour for it's ABV.

I haven't used that brand of yeast before, but I know Nottingham can get to 11/12 though it will take awhile to carbonate (has taken me 4 months to hit proper carbonation before), and while champagne yeasts are great don't forget that they also strip tons of flavour out in favour of a neutral wine profile. Have you considered mead or high ABV cider yeast?

 

[SouthPhillyBr3w3r]

Expect to be aging this for awhile.

My basic cider (without sugar added) hits 8% and is hot and dry for a good 6months and improves from there, as most ciders do (6-12months being what's good for most ciders), but that is with unfermentables sugar added as well as racking on to cubed apples to help it regain flavour for it's ABV.

I haven't used that brand of yeast before, but I know Nottingham can get to 11/12 though it will take awhile to carbonate (has taken me 4 months to hit proper carbonation before), and while champagne yeasts are great don't forget that they also strip tons of flavour out in favour of a neutral wine profile. Have you considered mead or high ABV cider yeast?

This is mostly an experiment to see how the fermentation goes, compared to beer, and familiarize myself with how the flavor changes with time. My local HBC does a bulk cider buy from local farms in the fall. I plan on working the kinks out and doing research until then. Then I plan on fermenting a sweet cider and a dry Cidre Normandie

 

[CKuhns]

Good cider from apple juice is certainly possible.

Consider the following:
For a practice run. Start with the Motts apple juice, yeast started a day ahead of pitch and a tsp of nutrients. Shake the dickens out of it to aerate. Let it go until gravity is near 1.000. This gives you a good idea of how the juice will ferment with the yeast chosen and environment you keep it in. Taste once complete and keep some around for a bit. It will change with age.

Read the cider for beginners sticky at the top of the forum.

Then experiment with Tannen in primary or secondary, additional fermentables like FAJC or more sugars, spices or fruits etc.

Most of what you learn will apply to fresh pressed cider and like beer will take a little practice, patience and expertise to perfect.

Note - be cautious about how much you aerate after 1/3 sugar break. Oxidation can be a big problem for ciders.

 

[SouthPhillyBr3w3r]

Good cider from apple juice is certainly possible.

Consider the following:
For a practice run. Start with the Motts apple juice, yeast started a day ahead of pitch and a tsp of nutrients. Shake the dickens out of it to aerate. Let it go until gravity is near 1.000. This gives you a good idea of how the juice will ferment with the yeast chosen and environment you keep it in. Taste once complete and keep some around for a bit. It will change with age.

Read the cider for beginners sticky at the top of the forum.

Then experiment with Tannen in primary or secondary, additional fermentables like FAJC or more sugars, spices or fruits etc.

Most of what you learn will apply to fresh pressed cider and like beer will take a little practice, patience and expertise to perfect.

Note - be cautious about how much you aerate after 1/3 sugar break. Oxidation can be a big problem for ciders.

Since the cider I have fermenting would be 11.03% ABV if it gets down to FG: 1.000, I assume it will be pretty hot. You are saying wine tannin and age should help? I was going to "Jack" it if it is too hot, then oak age and blend it with sweet hard cider. If I understand you correctly, you are saying to give it a few weeks in primary and then age in carboy? The 6-12 month aging should be in a carboy or bottles?

 

[TGFV]

I do carboys for bulk aging if I have them available.

As for "hot" aging definitely helps with it, tannins helps balance the juice flavour that lacks the complexity of varied apples pressed from an orchard, acid blends can be useful here too.

If you jack it, just remember all flavours in it are intensified, though an apple port is surely possible doing this.