First brew day soon...can someone check my math/methods?

[jm21]

I am attempting my first beer sometime next week (a little delay because I ordered s-04 yeast instead of s-05 by accident...how much difference does that make anyways?). I think I got everything sorted out but figured I'd ask the experts. I'm trying to make a slightly hoppy APA and dry-hop it a few different ways to get a feel for what some different hops taste like and what difference they make. I've got a bunch of 7.5l (a bit under 2 gallon) carboys that I would fill with 6l each.

Some people might remember I posted a bit over a year ago asking for advice on brewing in China but I fizzled out. At a job with lower hours this year and finally getting off my butt and trying it out.

Recipe (I am using grams because the stuff I get comes in grams, but including the US measurement).

Batch volume 24l (6.34 gallons)
6.5kg (14.35 lbs)pale ale 2-row from Australia (not 100% sure on the western name because buying from a Chinese website).
20g (.7oz) Chinook (60 minutes)
20g (.7oz) Cascade (15 minutes)
20g (.7oz) Citra (10 minutes)
Safale s-05 yeast

1 fermenter no dry-hop
1 fermenter 30g (1.1oz) chinoook put in at start of fermentation
1 fermenter 30g cascade put in about 1 week into fermentation
1 fermenter 30g citra put in about 1 week into fermentation
Pitching temp 70f

OG should be around 1.063 final gravity 1.011 IBU 34.78

Should start the boil with around 33L (around 8 gallons)

Question: It seems that modern dry yeasts can be added directly to the wort, is that accurate? Seems to be a lot of stories going around based on older low quality dry yeasts.

Methodology:
So you basically put the grains in the bag, cook it until you hit OG or until the OG isn't changing anymore. Reduce until you get down to the right volume and then add your hops and time it. Then chill it down to pitch temp, add the yeast, then dump into the fermenters. Dry hop as described. Wait about two weeks, check to see for consistent FG and then bottle. Wait another two weeks or so and then presto, beer?

Any comments or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I like really hoppy beers but trying to keep this one down a bit because I have a friend who's the co-owner of a bar here and we were going to see what Chinese customers thought of it if they're any good and Chinese people tend not to like really hoppy beers. Craft brew scene is just emerging here.

 

[btbnl]

Your methodology is a bit wonky. For this recipe you would
- heat 9 gallons of water to 155F
- put the bag in the pot and add the crushed grains, stirring as you go to prevent dough balls
- insulate and leave for an hour (it should be around 150F at this point)
- remove the bag and drain/squeeze as you see fit
- bring to the boil
- add the hops at the prescribed intervals (at the start of the boil, after 45 minutes, and after 50 minutes)
- after 60 minutes boiling, turn the flame out and cool as quickly as possible to below 80F, and eventually to 60-65F
- pitch yeast (good dried yeast should be OK to add directly, but you can also rehydrate)
- maintain fermentation temperature in the low/mid-60s (at least for the initial phase)
- when fermentation is complete, dry hop for up to a week
- if you can, cold crash for a few days
- transfer to a bottling bucket, add priming sugar and bottle

There are debates about the nuances of every one of these steps, but they are the basics.

 

[Kharnynb]

check the brew in a bag stickies as well, deathbrewer did a great tutorial with pictures.

 

[jm21]

OK. I think I was basically on the right track but got a couple things wrong.

So you basically steep the grains in the pot? I had thought the goal was to keep it at a certain temperature (e.g. 150) as long as possible. Obviously with a large batch and proper insulation you wouldn't see much temperature loss but I have a relatively thin pot and figured I would have to add a little bit of heat partway through to keep it at temp.

Also thought you maintained the same temp for when you added the hops. So when adding the hops it should be at a full boil? I was thinking it shouldn't be at a full boil, more like a simmer or a bit below a simmer.

I've been reading a lot on dry-hopping and cold crashing and there seems much debate. Lots of argument about how fermentation affects the hops. Maybe switch either the cascade or citra to be dry-hopped after the fermentation is completely done.

 

[Kharnynb]

during the 60 minutes you add hops, you have to have a good rolling boil.

when dryhopping, it's best to do it only the last few days anywhere from last 3 days or last 6-7 days.

 

[Hydreliox]

Check out my Bonzai Brew Bus post (first 10 threads in the BIAB forum section). I'm in a pretty similar position - but a very helpful RM-MN has give me shed loads of great advice and I am much more confident with that knowledge brew day later this week will go with every success (besides the muppet attempting it).

Biggest thing I didn't know - wait for the foamy stuff to subside before adding any hops in. Chinook can go in whilst bringing to the boil probably - others will correct me if I am wrong.

Wish you the best of luck and hopefully a tasty brew at the end.

Happy brewing!

E2A - My step by step for brew day is in that mentioned thread.

 

[jm21]

I read a couple threads and this article: http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2015/10/softer-juicier-and-uglier-apa.html?m=1

that had me interested in trying out throwing them in at fermentation. Some people seemed to get really good results with doing it that way and as long as I have a couple fermenters to play with....

All the brewing stuff got her today but waiting on the fermenters and the re-ordered yeast. I have a sneaking suspicion the specialty grain I bought is actually the same as the base grain I bought though...sigh...the problems with translations. Fascinating packaging job they did too...

Forgot I had some willamette in the cart and wondering if I should try using those too.

 

[m1k3]

US-05 is a good choice. S-04 would still make beer.

Personally, I'd move the Cascade to 5 min and Citra to 0min (flameout).
(Unless you can chill your wort faster than I think you can, I think you will get a better result.)

Also, I would not pitch at 70F.
The manufacturer says:
ideally 15-22°C (59-71.6°F)

So, if you pitch at 70F it could easily get up to 75F when it gets going.
I prefer pitching as low as possible in the "ideal" range and then control the temp to a maximum "ideal" temp over a couple days.

20g (.7oz) Cascade (15 minutes)
20g (.7oz) Citra (10 minutes)
Safale s-05 yeast

 

[jm21]

Hmmm...so maybe move out the time for the last two additions until near the end and maybe add some more of the chinook to the top to get a little more bittering? Maybe then instead of dry-hopping the chinook use the willamette instead? I'm trying to work with 50g packets and get as little waste and be as sanitized as possible. Don't have a great place to store them right at the moment.

I just realized I read something wrong...thought the citra was low AA for some reason. Maybe read the beta acid instead of AA.

Do they use high AA hops for finishing a beer much? Seemed to not be that way...

Maybe switch out the citra for willamette? That would make it all northwesty hops too...

Will check out the bonzai brew bus thread.

 

[jm21]

After reading part of the Bonzai bus thread adding on an equipment list in case there's any suggestions and for anyone who might stumble upon this thread in the future. I have a pretty powerful propane burner in my kitchen already so don't need a burner. It's maybe an excessive amount of stuff but a lot of things are really cheap here and I figured WTH. Maybe use it some day. Bought way more grain than I needed because it was a pretty good deal and I've got the potential to sell some beer and thus brew more batches.

Should also note I went plastic for fermenters and bottles. I know many frown on plastic but seems to work for some people and it was dirty cheap.

15gal pot
large bag
one larger scale for measuring large items
one small scale for measuring out hops and tiny things
sanitizing tablets
hydrometer
ph reader (probably not useful)
immersion chiller
nice thermometer
grain mill
siphon with filter
9 7.5l plastic bottles for fermenting with temperature strips and airlocks.
45 1.5l plastic bottles for bottling (sturdy with a thick plastic shield over the top to help protect from sunlight i guess)
test tube (probably not necessary)
2l plastic measuring cup

need a funnel and a meter stick but can't really think of much else.

 

[jm21]

OK, reading more, looking at the bits of advice on this thread, and realizing I had willamette hops on hand...how about this for a new recipe? Looking for a APA with a gentle (not so bitter) hoppiness to it and to experiment with things a bit to gain more knowledge about hops. Also getting a bit more regional pride-ish as I spent almost all my life in the PNW before moving to China and I have too much regional pride.

6.5kg (14.35lbs) australian 2 row
20g (.7oz) chinook at 60min
20g cascade at 5min
20g willamette at burnout

have one fermenter with no dry-hopping and the other three with 30g (1.1oz) of each of those hops (one with chinook, one with cascade, one with willamette).

 

[jm21]

First impressions: milling 6.5kg of grain by hand with the cheapest mill you could find (which took some finagling to even put together properly due to poor manufacturing) is a hell of a lot more work and quite messy. Note to self to invest in a better grain mill if I keep at this.

EDIT:
Just added in the grain bag. Had some difficulties stirring (utensil too short) so the temps dropped a little bit more. At about 15 minutes had to turn it on a low flame to bump it up 2 degrees celsius because it dipped below 65 (150f). My pot is big enough and the bag is small enough that I don't think it even goes to the bottom of the pot. no burnt smells or anything. Getting the hops out and sterilizing liquid prepared.

Had to add a little bit of heat again at 35 minutes or so. So I guess about 20 minutes to cool the pot 2 degrees C with the lid on.

the room I'm going to store them in is hovering around 18c (65f) with the door open and the AC on (no AC in the living room or kitchen so we leave the AC in one bedroom on with the door open.

Figured out how to hook up the immersion cooler...thought I was missing some parts at first but seems to have been made to be used in a Chinese bathroom rather than the kitchen. Should work fine though. Just have to haul 6 gallons in a hot pot to the bathroom. fun.

About an hour in and hit 65c for the third time. Tested the gravity and with adjustments it's in the low 40's....should be closer to 60 according to the calculator. I'm sure the hops will add a bit of particulate but seems like it should be a little higher. added a little heat and stirred up the grains and will let them sit another time or two and then call it good unless i keep seeing the gravity increase.

re-positioned the thermometer near the top of pot and getting significantly lower temps...so maybe i didn't have the water hot enough due to misplaced thermometer.

Re-heated the water up to 67 and got a bit of an outmeal sort of smell. Did I just ruin my beer?

 

[McKnuckle]

Re-heated the water up to 67 and got a bit of an outmeal sort of smell. Did I just ruin my beer?

Nah. The mash is just not that sensitive. I'm not a newbie. Last night I brewed my 62nd batch... I had a perfect mash just settling in at 152F on my induction cooktop. I reached over, pressed the button to turn off the heat, and leisurely began weighing out my hops on the other side of the room.

A couple of minutes later I glanced over and oh $h!T!! I had pressed the wrong button - instead of turning the cooktop OFF I had turned the heat UP! My mash wash at around 165F and climbing!

I rushed to the freezer and grabbed a few frozen plastic bottles that I keep around. Tossed them in, dunked and stirred, and within a minute or two I was back down to 152F.

While this was nerve-wracking, I still nailed my predicted efficiency and initial gravity. And fermentation began within 5 or 6 hours! Whew.

While mash temp is important to certain nuances, as long as you have it in the 145-160F range, it will still make beer. Fermentation temps are far more critical to the end product.

 

[jm21]

Was worried that the grain on the bottom had 'cooked' somehow due to the heat. Phew.

So I had brought it up to 67 or so and then let it cool down to 65c (150f) which took about 25 minutes. Up to the high 40's or low 50's now adjusted for temperature. Kind of hard to read the hydrometer for me (horrible eyes) so I'm not expecting to see it perfectly, but definitely a significantly higher gravity than before. Will bring it up a few degrees and let it sit another 25 minutes or so and try again.

Will remember to put the thermometer closer to the top in the future.

 

[jm21]

Alright, so done with the barley. Burned a hole in the bag re-heating but not much seems to have come out into the wort. maybe 1 inch diameter.

gravity is up to the low 50's which I guess is maybe about right? Got my hops in sanitized dishes waiting to be added and just starting the water boiling now.

First time smelling hops and they smell AMAZING! My fiance finds the smell repulsive but it's like crack to me. Chinook seem more like the kind of flavor I like than cascade or willamette now that I smell them, though cascade is pretty close.

EDIT:
Realize suddenly that I will be adding the hops to boiling water so they didn't need sanitized dishes.

Immersion cooler worked really well getting it down to 40c or so. Doesn't seem to work well much past that.

 

[jm21]

OK...so sitting here...10:50pm where I live....have to get up for work at 7am tomorrow...wort has been hovering at 35c for about 30 minutes now...would I be wrong to put a lid on it and deal with it tomorrow?

EDIT:
It's sitting in a room that's about 16c which is about as cold as I can get things. 18c should be OK for pitching the yeast.

 

[McKnuckle]

Your description of things is a bit confusing to me. 18c = 64.4F which is a safe pitching temp for most ale yeast strains.

I hope that you mashed the grains at about 150 F, then boiled for about one hour, during which time you added hops at different intervals.

Then, you cooled the wort. And once the temperature was about 18C, you pitched yeast.

Is this what you did? Hope so.

 

[jm21]

Your description of things is a bit confusing to me. 18c = 64.4F which is a safe pitching temp for most ale yeast strains.

I hope that you mashed the grains at about 150 F, then boiled for about one hour, during which time you added hops at different intervals.

Then, you cooled the wort. And once the temperature was about 18C, you pitched yeast.

Is this what you did? Hope so.

I mashed the grains at around 150 and then boiled it and added the hops. Used an immersion cooler to get the temp down to around 40c or so pretty quickly, but then the temp has been stuck. Even leaving the wort overnight in a relatively cold room it's still sitting at around 25c which is too hot to pitch the yeast. Should be around 18c for safe pitching.

Addition:
Been about 13 hours and finally down to pitching temps (though a little on the high side). Going to give it another hour or two and see if it can get down a little further. Did not realize it would be that hard to cool it off but I guess living in the subtropics has its disadvantages. Our freezer is tiny so ice isn't a great option unfortunately. Will have to think of something.

 

[jm21]

Got it down to 18c, re-sanitized everything, chucked in the dry yeast, and filled up the four bottles I had for fermenting. 7.5l bottles with 6l of liquid in each. Totally forgot wtf I was doing and put the cascade and willamette hops in that I was going to use for dry hopping. Managed to remember what I was doing and will save the chinook hops for later. Total brain fart there. Not much in the way of activity yet. Hopefully did something more productive than create giant bacteria farms.

 

[McKnuckle]

Was there any reason to split up the 24 liters of wort into four separate fermenters? I assume it was all contained in one place while you waited for the temps to come down.

You're basically dry hopping in primary now - not the textbook ideal - but who knows, it might give you something regardless. Some people do that, but usually they wait til fermentation has died down.

The most important thing you can do now is WAIT and do not continually open or touch the wort for any reason. That's how infections happen and things get messed up. Plan in your mind that you won't do a thing for at least 10 days.

 

[FatDragon]

Are you milling with a cheap Chinese corona mill? I love mine - it's a bit shifty but once I got it dialed in it's been totally consistent. Takes a long time because I grind fine, but I get great efficiency.

Your immersion chiller may be like mine: you can hook it up to certain taps as is, but it's best to get a little nozzle adapter you can screw into your kitchen sink. https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z09.2.0.0.zv4ZV5&id=17520515775&_u=pkvecgoba9f You unscrew the original sink nozzle, screw in the adapter, and your chiller is perfectly set up for the sink. Assuming ground water temps around 25C, you'll find it takes just as long to go from 40-30 as it does to go from 100-40, but it can be done. A fish tank pump and a bucket of recirculated ice water (unfortunately ice isn't so easy to buy around China but you should be able to find it if you look or ask the right people) can get you down to pitching temps from there.

You could also research no-chill. I know the basics but not the specifics so I'll leave that to you to research or someone else to explain, but if you keep a room at 18C during the hot months, your batches could probably chill overnight and be ready to pitch by the morning.

 

[jm21]

I chucked the yeast into the pot and then shortly after moved it into four different fermenters. The idea was to test how much influence dry-hopping had and also to use up all my hop packages. So I used 20g chinook at 60min, 20g cascade at 5min, 20g willamette at flame out, then the idea was to add the remainder of the packets (30g of each) to 3 separate fermenters. Then I have one control (no hops) and one of each with 30g of each hop dry-hopping. Figured it would have been a good way to compare the effect dry-hopping different hops had but then I brain-farted.

I have them in a dark room under a desk at about 18c and hoping for the best. The damn fluorescent lighting really does a number on stuff. Totally ruined a very expensive bottle of wine I brought back from the states. EDIT: (lights off in that room except when absolutely necessary).

For the immersion chiller I unscrew the shower head and clamp on the hose from the chiller. The bigger problem was that where the water exited the pipe there was no hose so it's basically spraying into the room and that doesn't really work in my kitchen. Works fine in the bathroom though. Our freezer is tiny and stocked full of stuff so will have to figure something different out about ice.

I am in pure watch mode now. No testing. No fidgeting. Just watching.

 

[jm21]

checking things out a little over 24 hours after pitching the yeast...there is significant activity in each fermenter but noticeably more in the fermenters that I put the hops in. At least 2-3x more activity.

 

[FatDragon]

I still recommend getting your chiller set up for your kitchen. A meter of silicone tubing and a hose clamp (or even a cable tie) will only set you back a few kuai. Heck, if your inflow hose is long enough you could just cut an outflow off of that. You can fill a bucket with the first 20 liters of runoff and have some nice hot water for cleaning your kettle after transferring the wort, then leave the outflow in your kitchen sink for the rest of the chill; it allows you to stir with the chiller (makes a huge difference in chilling efficiency) without making a mess or diluting/contaminating your wort with chiller water; best of all you don't have to tote a big heavy kettle full of boiling hot wort across the house, which is a disaster waiting to happen.

For the light issue, wrap a t-shirt or towel over each fermenter. My only clear fermenter is a standard 5 gallon glass carboy that only gets use for extended secondaries of big beers, but it always has a t-shirt or towel protecting it from the light and there's no cause for concern.

 

[jm21]

Ah, t-shirts around them. Good idea.

Yes, I use a corona mill (had to look up the term). It was all wonky at first and I was kind of surprised at how well I was able to get it to work, but it's a lot of work milling 6.5kgs. Should I be getting a lot of flour-ey sort of fine particles?

Mainly worried I didn't sanitize things well enough at this point. Guess I'll know in about two weeks. Tried to be careful but wasn't sure how long they had to soak in the sanitary fluid. Also had the lid off for a couple hours while the wort was cooling (before I thought to put a lid on it...didn't realize it would take that long to chill).

Using it in the bathroom was really not that bad. My kitchen sink is tiny and my fiance is more than happy to help out. I wouldn't want to lift a huge boiling pot by myself but worked out pretty well doing it with her. She had the idea of moving the chiller around which definitely helped. Just once we got down to 40c or so the temp was barely moving and we were wasting a ton of water.

EDIT:
Hey fatdragon, I just noticed you had a mead going. Have you been able to get a really dry mead? Last time I was home I went to a tasting at a meadery...I think it was in woodinville but can't remember very well. Near Seattle. Had a dry mead that was an absolute revelation but I wouldn't know where to start replicating it.

 

[FatDragon]

Ah, t-shirts around them. Good idea.

Yes, I use a corona mill (had to look up the term). It was all wonky at first and I was kind of surprised at how well I was able to get it to work, but it's a lot of work milling 6.5kgs. Should I be getting a lot of flour-ey sort of fine particles?

Mainly worried I didn't sanitize things well enough at this point. Guess I'll know in about two weeks. Tried to be careful but wasn't sure how long they had to soak in the sanitary fluid. Also had the lid off for a couple hours while the wort was cooling (before I thought to put a lid on it...didn't realize it would take that long to chill).

Using it in the bathroom was really not that bad. My kitchen sink is tiny and my fiance is more than happy to help out. I wouldn't want to lift a huge boiling pot by myself but worked out pretty well doing it with her. She had the idea of moving the chiller around which definitely helped. Just once we got down to 40c or so the temp was barely moving and we were wasting a ton of water.

EDIT:
Hey fatdragon, I just noticed you had a mead going. Have you been able to get a really dry mead? Last time I was home I went to a tasting at a meadery...I think it was in woodinville but can't remember very well. Near Seattle. Had a dry mead that was an absolute revelation but I wouldn't know where to start replicating it.

The typical BIAB grain crush has a lot of fine floury particles. Because we get much better drainage of our grains by way of the greater surface area for draining (as compared to traditional mash tuns that can get clogged pretty easily), most BIAB brewers like to crush fairly fine for quicker and higher conversion rates - i.e. more sugar from the same amount of grain. The typical BIAB Corona mill gap is a "credit card" gap where the grinding plates are about as far apart as a credit card is thick. I think mine's even a bit closer than that. The downside is that I get a lot of particulate matter in my wort because some of those floury particles make it through the mesh of the bag, but I toss everything from my kettle into my fermenter and most of the particulate settles out with the yeast.

Chill however you wish, but recognize that the longer your wort is exposed to outside elements below pasteurization temperatures and before pitching your yeast, the greater your risk of an infected batch.

As for mead, I'm pretty much a know-nothing. I've made some no-fuss sweet JAOM in the past and what you see in my signature is the result of me mostly blindly dabbling with some free honey (and a little bit I bought on a whim), but none of the results seem particularly promising so you'll need to look elsewhere if you want to find a proper mead-maker.

 

[jm21]

So I had the occasional bubble at the airlock after about 2 weeks so decided to keep waiting and just bottled today. 23 days in I think. Was going to bottle a few days ago but my fiance convinced me to go to a market with her and I was so hot by the time I got back I just vegged near the AC.

Very interesting results, quite a bit different from what I expected. There were about 4 liters in each bottle. Boiled 2/3 cup of sugar and ended up with about 170ml of sugar water which I split between the bottles equally.

Bottle 1: control, no dry hopping. Tastes like beer, but very light, almost like a lager. Smelled pretty bad to me but not to my fiance. I thought it was a bad/infected batch when I smelled it but seems fine. Pretty clear.

Bottle 2: Dry hopped with 30g chinook hops, added 8 days in. Very cloudy but smelled like heaven and tasted great. Well, to me. Fiance thought it smelled horrible and spit it out. Very hoppy but not bitter at all which was a little odd. I really like it so far and think it will probably get better.

Bottle 3: dry hopped with 30g cascade hops, added at the start of fermentation. Clear but not much flavor. A little bit more hoppy than bottle 2 but not by much. Very similar color.

Bottle 4: dry hopped with 30g of willamette hops, added at the start of fermentation. Cloudy and more similar in flavor with the chinook one, but not as strong.

All are in bottle under the couch in my spare bedroom and will see how things are like in 2 weeks.

My big question is that from what I read if you put in hops at the start of fermentation you would get a cloudy beer, but that was not the case here. From this tiny experiment it seems like the cloudiness of the beer may be more related to something in the hops, the something I really like. Will have to look into what other differences there are between those hop varieties. Maybe beta acids?

 

[FatDragon]

So I had the occasional bubble at the airlock after about 2 weeks so decided to keep waiting and just bottled today. 23 days in I think. Was going to bottle a few days ago but my fiance convinced me to go to a market with her and I was so hot by the time I got back I just vegged near the AC.

Very interesting results, quite a bit different from what I expected. There were about 4 liters in each bottle. Boiled 2/3 cup of sugar and ended up with about 170ml of sugar water which I split between the bottles equally.

Bottle 1: control, no dry hopping. Tastes like beer, but very light, almost like a lager. Smelled pretty bad to me but not to my fiance. I thought it was a bad/infected batch when I smelled it but seems fine. Pretty clear.

Bottle 2: Dry hopped with 30g chinook hops, added 8 days in. Very cloudy but smelled like heaven and tasted great. Well, to me. Fiance thought it smelled horrible and spit it out. Very hoppy but not bitter at all which was a little odd. I really like it so far and think it will probably get better.

Bottle 3: dry hopped with 30g cascade hops, added at the start of fermentation. Clear but not much flavor. A little bit more hoppy than bottle 2 but not by much. Very similar color.

Bottle 4: dry hopped with 30g of willamette hops, added at the start of fermentation. Cloudy and more similar in flavor with the chinook one, but not as strong.

All are in bottle under the couch in my spare bedroom and will see how things are like in 2 weeks.

My big question is that from what I read if you put in hops at the start of fermentation you would get a cloudy beer, but that was not the case here. From this tiny experiment it seems like the cloudiness of the beer may be more related to something in the hops, the something I really like. Will have to look into what other differences there are between those hop varieties. Maybe beta acids?

I don't recall reading anything about early dry hopping leading to cloudiness. Early dry hopping isn't typically done for two reasons. First, fermentation drives off aromatics that you're trying to get into the beer by dry hopping, so although you will get some other compounds that will stick around, you're losing a lot of the aroma that dry hopping is famous for providing. Second: unless you bag your dry hops and pull them out after several days, dry hopping at the beginning of fermentation means the hops will be in the beer for too long. Anywhere past a week is notorious for causing grassy flavors that most people want to avoid. It's true that hops can lend a haze (and body) to beer, but I don't believe that it makes much of a difference when you add them during dry hopping, and dry hopped beers can still be very clear if you follow the right brewing practices.

In the future, those airlock bubbles after a couple weeks are almost always false signs of fermentation. My first beer finished fermenting after a day and a half - a combination of aggressive English yeast and higher than optimal fermentation temps - but it bubbled anywhere from a few times a minute to once every few minutes for another 2-3 weeks because of air pressure fluctuations and off-gassing of CO2 that had gone into solution during fermentation. Most of the time your airlock will bubble when the brew is fermenting and won't bubble when it's not fermenting, but there are plenty of exceptions to both of those.

 

[jm21]

The following article, as well as several posts here, suggested that adding hops during the early stage of fermentation could create cloudier/murkier but more flavorful beer. But like seemingly everything else relating to beer brewing it seems to be an ongoing argument...

http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2015/10/softer-juicier-and-uglier-apa.html?m=1

I couldn't physically see any of the hops (maybe I just don't know what I'm looking for) and didn't have any grassy flavors. Or flavors that I would identify as grassy at least.

Will do another batch this weekend maybe with some specialty grains, hopefully getting the right translation.

My last post I put the wrong amount of liquid. I started with 6l in each bottle and ended up with about 4.5l of bottle-worthy beer. Tried to siphon the last little bit out of the first container and it just made for a beer that looks like dirt. Is that about normal?

I barely detected any flavor at all from the hops I added at 5 minutes and burnout. On the control that had no dry-hopping it smelled like a swamp and I couldn't taste any more hop flavor than in harbin beer or any other generic lager. Maybe a tiny bit more but not really worth mentioning. I'm wondering whether I should be just using the hops for bitterness and dry hopping, and just not doing anything the last 15 minutes of the boil. I mean, the hops were in the kettle overnight and I still got almost no flavor.

Maybe I'm just so used to drinking very hoppy IPAs that I don't notice the more subtle hop flavors. Will be interesting to see what some friends think once they're carbonated.

What's the best way to tell if the fermentation is totally done? Just notice the massive layer at the bottom of the bottle? or take out a sample and use the hydrometer? I've been paranoid about infecting things so didn't test this batch at all until today.

EDIT:
The two beers without much flavor (no dry hopping and cascade) were immensely clearer than the ones with stronger hoppy flavors (willamette and chinook). Just seems like there must be some sort of relation but maybe just a freak incident.

Guessing if I had a freezer or fridge to chuck them in I could solve some problems...but that means convincing the fiance to dump more money into this project on top of the ~$350 already spent....not sure that will fly...

 

[FatDragon]

Feel free to PM me if you need help translating or finding ingredients. I've been through it all myself.

Hazy beer with early dry hopping could certainly be a thing. Generally dry hops are added either after or during the last few points of primary fermentation, since primary fermentation will drive off a lot of the stuff dry hopping adds.

Feel free to try out beers with nothing but bittering and dry hops - maybe you'll prefer them. Using late hops and dry hops in hoppy beers is a technique that nobody seems to be questioning - those late hops are considered to be very important - but maybe you can get great results by just using a bittering charge and then dry hops, perhaps a dry hop charge before fermentation and another one after the beer is done bubbling. It's an intriguing idea. Either way, back on the haze thing: I don't really know, but personally it's not something I consider important - I've never made a crystal clear beer and it's never been something that's bothered me because if the beer tastes good I'm not so concerned about what it looks like.

Taking a couple hydrometer tests a day or two apart is the best way to check if the beer is finished. I rarely bother anymore, going mostly by time and giving a little heed to airlock activity as well and I haven't had a problem, but when you've only got a few brews under your belt, you're best off taking those readings - following standard techniques, taking notes, and tasting your beer at all different points in its lifespan will all build your experience and develop brewing instincts that you can follow in the future.

Finally, losing volume to trub in the fermenter is inevitable. If you get super-clear wort into your fermenter and pitch a highly-flocculant yeast, you might only lose 5% of your volume to the yeast cake. The more trub that goes into the ferementer - hops from the kettle, cold and hot break proteins, flour that may have gotten though your BIAB bag or grain bed - the more fermenter trub you'll have. Since I dump everything from the kettle into my fermenting bucket, I often start with ~23L and only end up bottling ~18L of beer, which is pretty close to your rate of 6L in and 4.5L out. It's not worth trying to bottle that last half-bottle and getting a bunch of trub in there; if you're hell-bent on drinking it, pour or siphon it into a glass, chill it in the fridge, and call it an uncarbed taste tester. Better yet, if you're saving the yeast cake it's good to have a layer of beer over it, so that leftover beer can go into the jar with the yeast cake as a buffer against infection.

 

[ZmannR2]

As your results show, you aren't supposed to dry hop until fermentation has slowed way down (about a week after pitching the yeast). Otherwise much of the aroma escapes with the co2 being released. So your dry hopped beers don't show much in the was of aroma on ones added at the beginning of fermentation

 

[ZmannR2]

What's the best way to tell if the fermentation is totally done? Just notice the massive layer at the bottom of the bottle? or take out a sample and use the hydrometer? I've been paranoid about infecting things so didn't test this batch at all until today

Take a hydrometer reading and again 2 days after that. When the reading doesn't change, it's done

 

[jm21]

As your results show, you aren't supposed to dry hop until fermentation has slowed way down (about a week after pitching the yeast). Otherwise much of the aroma escapes with the co2 being released. So your dry hopped beers don't show much in the was of aroma on ones added at the beginning of fermentation

The Willamette one was somewhat hoppy. Like a sierra nevada pale ale or something but less bitter and not as full bodied. The cascade one was more like the typical piss beer. No dry-hop at all smelled like crap. I've got another packet each of all the hops so will do another batch with all three dry hopped starting after the one week mark and see how much of a difference it makes. I think I had one more type of hops as well I might use instead of doing a control.

The Chinook one was extremely hoppy, but not bitter at all. Hop aroma and flavor of something like a lagunitas ipa. Very strong hop smell. The amount of flavor imparted to the beer is at least somewhat in line with how they smelled out of the bag. Chinook smelled very strong compared to Cascade. Who knows. Will see what happens next brew.

Would like to try some caramel malts and stuff but WAYYY over-bought on the grains, then what I thought was a specialty grain (due to a different name in Chinese) turned out to be the same stuff...so I've got about 120 pounds of aussie 2-row that needs to be whittled down a bit before the fiance lets me buy more...

 

[NoIguanaForZ]

(a little delay because I ordered s-04 yeast instead of s-05 by accident...how much difference does that make anyways?)

A little late to the party, but...

S-04 is a bit less attenuative (like 75 vs 85 % sugars converted), so you'll get a less dry (Sweeter, in theory, though not necessarily overtly sweet) beer; it has high flocculation, so you might have a clearer beer; it has a lower maximum alcohol tolerance, so you're less likely to be able to push it to a bit over 12% like I have with US-05; and it has a different flavor profile, with more esters (fruity and spicy flavors) and less accentuation of hops.

Also significant: fermenting US-05 "too warm" (IE, above 72-ish ambient) gives you peach/tropical fruit flavors, whereas fermenting S-04 "too warm" gives you burning rubber flavors.

 

[jm21]

Well damn. Checked on the bottles today and I think I'm screwed. My fiance was helping me bottle them and she just didn't have enough strength to get the screw tops all the way on. I didn't check and she didn't think it was a big problem...had them stacked sideways and a lot of beer has leaked out and I doubt more than a few bottles will be carbonated. Poopers. All that work basically down the drain.

Any chance of saving things in this sort of situation? I would think the yeast is pretty much gone at this point and chalking it up as a learning experience.

EDIT:
looked at some other threads and I was probably also carbonating at too low of a temperature (~70 at night and ~65 or lower during the day). Gave the bottles a shake and put them in the kitchen where it's a little warmer and see what happens. A few seem ok. They had some carbonation already when I bottled them...so should at least be drinkable for the most part. Just sucks that one small mistake spilled a decent chunk of our hard-earned beer.

 

[NoIguanaForZ]

Did I miss something? It's generally accepted that screw-top bottles can't be capped by homebrewer-accessible equipment.

Also, you don't want to stack beer sideways; that means more surface area in contact with any oxygen in the dead space, for the same volume of dead space.

 

[jm21]

Did I miss something? It's generally accepted that screw-top bottles can't be capped by homebrewer-accessible equipment.

Also, you don't want to stack beer sideways; that means more surface area in contact with any oxygen in the dead space, for the same volume of dead space.

They sold some bottles at the home brew shop that they swore worked. I seemingly can cap them down enough to work but my fiance can't. How would you test? Put it in a water bath and look for bubbles? put it upside down and see if anything comes out?

We had them sideways so they'd fit in the darkest part of the room...under the futon.

 

[jm21]

So doing some more research and it seems like I inadvertently used something like a partial no-chill method, which explains a lot. Those 5 and 0 minute additions I did would have been more similar to much earlier additions, so their hop flavor and aroma was pretty much lost and the beer was more bitter than it should have been. Apparently that's the biggest problem with the no-chill method and hoppy beers.

So next brew, probably tomorrow, use some bittering hops with no later additions and then dry-hop. I think the no-chill method is the only real method that works for me unless I had a freezer. It's either that or make some small batches that I can chill fast enough, which I might end up doing later, or wait for winter.