First Batch Questions

[mattman91]

I’ve been brewing beer since 2013 and finally decided it is time to make some cider.

I’ll be using 1 gallon of fresh juice from a local orchard, 1.5 gallons of store bought juice, and 1 gallon of bittersweet concentrate. Fermenting with Safcider AC-4.

Questions:

1. I’m going for a dry-semi dry cider. Is back-sweetening necessary, and if so, if I were to add more juice, how much would I need to add?

2. I have Potassium sorbate if I do decide to back-sweeten. Will I need to let it sit a while after adding before adding the extra juice? Do I need to transfer the cider to an additional vessel before this step?

3. I have Camden tablets to kill off the wild yeasts that may be in the unpasteurized fresh juice. Should I just add one since the other juice is pasteurized, or stick with 3.5 to go with the 1 per gallon rule.

4. As previously stated, I’m an experienced beer brewer. One of the things I am very adamant about is low oxygen brewing. I ferment in corny kegs and Anvil King Chub fermenters (basically a clear keg) and always transfer via closed transfer to a purged keg through a purged transfer line. Is oxidation a big issue with cider making? With adding potassium sorbate and additional juice to back sweeten, what steps can I take to mitigate this issue?

5. Fermentation temps. The website for Fermentis gives AC-4 a pretty broad range for temperatures. What would be the best temperature to set my chamber at?

6. When should I add yeast nutrient? I understand that this is important with cider making. When brewing lagers, I’d always add this in the last 15 minutes of the boil. Since I’m not boiling, when does this step occur?

Thanks!

 

[Shotgunwilly]

For what I can answer.

The yeast Nutrient gets added and mixed in before you add the yeast.

I would rack to a new container after fermentation finishes and before adding the potassium sorbate to stop the yeast then its back sweeting to your preferance

 

[Chalkyt]

To answer your questions, If you think through the cider fermentation process it is fairly straightforward... get some juice which normally would have over 100g/L of sugar. Expose the juice to yeast and let them consume some or all of the sugar and in the process convert the sugar into roughly 48% alcohol, 47% CO2 and 5% other new flavour compounds, leaving water and the other original flavour compounds. You can then fiddle with this process by intervening along the way through stopping fermentation, killing unwanted pathogens, adding more sugar, other flavours, etc. This is what you seem to be planning, so to answer your questions...

1. Assuming that you don't want any natural carbonation, you can stop fermentation above SG1.000 (which is mostly all the sugar consumed). How sweet is semi-dry? BJCP says 0.4 - 0.9% (4 -9 g/L) sugar which will be a specific gravity around 1.003 - 1.005. So, you don't need to "backsweeten" by adding juice or sugar if you stop fermentation around here on the way down. Otherwise add juice or sugar if fermentation goes too far, just go by taste.

2. I don't use sorbate so can't give you any advice on this. I stop fermentation by hot waterbath pasteurising. This lets me play with bottling at the right sweetness level then stopping fermentation at the right carbonation level (e.g bottle at 1.010 then pasteurise at 1.005 to end up with 2.5 volumes of carbonation and 10g/L sugar for carbonated medium dry cider).

3. The jury is out on Campden (SO2). Some people don't use it, others do. I use 50ppm at the start and let it sit for 24 hours before adding yeast because I am in a rural environment and press my own juice (i.e. I can't guarantee not to get a bit of bird or kangaroo poo, etc, etc even though the apples are washed before grinding and pressing). The campden kills any (potentially) unwanted natural yeasts and pathogens, but it is a bit like throwing out the baby with the bathwater because the natural yeasts can be beneficial. Ideally the campden dose is related to the pH of the juice, but I just go with 50ppm (a tablet per gallon) and don't have any issues. Mind you, I might not have any issues even if I don't use campden tablets.

4. IME for the initial fermentation O2 isn't, an issue. Others go the great lengths to exclude it. My primary fermentation is in an open container as exposure to O2 is believed to be useful while the yeast population becomes established. Once the initial turbulent foam settles, I rack into a secondary container under airlock with minimum headspace.

5. I ferment around 10C - 15C (my cool-room temperature in Autumn), following the principle of "low (temp) and slow (fermentation) is the way to go" since robust fermentation can "blow-off" some flavour compounds.

6. nutrient is another vexed question. The issue is with YAN (Yeast Assimilable Nitrogen) which is a nutrient needed by the yeast to carry out fermentation. Most apple juice should have enough (more than 50ppm for complete fermentation) , although apples from old, late season, unfertilised trees (my small orchard!) can be low in YAN as can juice that has been kept in storage. Some yeasts (especially ale yeasts like S04) are highly nutrient dependent and in my case can stall somewhere around SG 1.015. I sometimes have to add a small amount of DAP nutrient if this happens. The current thinking is to start fermentation without added nutrient in order for the yeast to use the natural YAN first, then add a small dose (say 50ppm) around SG 1.020 just to ensure complete fermentation. In my case I probably over-cater a bit by adding about 1/8 tsp... but it works for me. I have not used AC4 but have used AS2 and didn't have any nutrient issues.

So again, I have posted a long-winded answer to questions but hope it helps you to think through what you are going to do.

Cheers!

 

[mattman91]

To answer your questions, If you think through the cider fermentation process it is fairly straightforward... get some juice which normally would have over 100g/L of sugar. Expose the juice to yeast and let them consume some or all of the sugar and in the process convert the sugar into roughly 48% alcohol, 47% CO2 and 5% other new flavour compounds, leaving water and the other original flavour compounds. You can then fiddle with this process by intervening along the way through stopping fermentation, killing unwanted pathogens, adding more sugar, other flavours, etc. This is what you seem to be planning, so to answer your questions...

1. Assuming that you don't want any natural carbonation, you can stop fermentation above SG1.000 (which is mostly all the sugar consumed). How sweet is semi-dry? BJCP says 0.4 - 0.9% (4 -9 g/L) sugar which will be a specific gravity around 1.003 - 1.005. So, you don't need to "backsweeten" by adding juice or sugar if you stop fermentation around here on the way down. Otherwise add juice or sugar if fermentation goes too far, just go by taste.

2. I don't use sorbate so can't give you any advice on this. I stop fermentation by hot waterbath pasteurising. This lets me play with bottling at the right sweetness level then stopping fermentation at the right carbonation level (e.g bottle at 1.010 then pasteurise at 1.005 to end up with 2.5 volumes of carbonation and 10g/L sugar for carbonated medium dry cider).

3. The jury is out on Campden (SO2). Some people don't use it, others do. I use 50ppm at the start and let it sit for 24 hours before adding yeast because I am in a rural environment and press my own juice (i.e. I can't guarantee not to get a bit of bird or kangaroo poo, etc, etc even though the apples are washed before grinding and pressing). The campden kills any (potentially) unwanted natural yeasts and pathogens, but it is a bit like throwing out the baby with the bathwater because the natural yeasts can be beneficial. Ideally the campden dose is related to the pH of the juice, but I just go with 50ppm (a tablet per gallon) and don't have any issues. Mind you, I might not have any issues even if I don't use campden tablets.

4. IME for the initial fermentation O2 isn't, an issue. Others go the great lengths to exclude it. My primary fermentation is in an open container as exposure to O2 is believed to be useful while the yeast population becomes established. Once the initial turbulent foam settles, I rack into a secondary container under airlock with minimum headspace.

5. I ferment around 10C - 15C (my cool-room temperature in Autumn), following the principle of "low (temp) and slow (fermentation) is the way to go" since robust fermentation can "blow-off" some flavour compounds.

6. nutrient is another vexed question. The issue is with YAN (Yeast Assimilable Nitrogen) which is a nutrient needed by the yeast to carry out fermentation. Most apple juice should have enough (more than 50ppm for complete fermentation) , although apples from old, late season, unfertilised trees (my small orchard!) can be low in YAN as can juice that has been kept in storage. Some yeasts (especially ale yeasts like S04) are highly nutrient dependent and in my case can stall somewhere around SG 1.015. I sometimes have to add a small amount of DAP nutrient if this happens. The current thinking is to start fermentation without added nutrient in order for the yeast to use the natural YAN first, then add a small dose (say 50ppm) around SG 1.020 just to ensure complete fermentation. In my case I probably over-cater a bit by adding about 1/8 tsp... but it works for me. I have not used AC4 but have used AS2 and didn't have any nutrient issues.

So again, I have posted a long-winded answer to questions but hope it helps you to think through what you are going to do.

Cheers!

Thank you so much! I learned quite a bit from this. Much appreciated.

 

[jnesselrode]

I’ve been brewing beer since 2013 and finally decided it is time to make some cider.

View attachment 858531

I’ll be using 1 gallon of fresh juice from a local orchard, 1.5 gallons of store bought juice, and 1 gallon of bittersweet concentrate. Fermenting with Safcider AC-4.

Questions:

1. I’m going for a dry-semi dry cider. Is back-sweetening necessary, and if so, if I were to add more juice, how much would I need to add?

2. I have Potassium sorbate if I do decide to back-sweeten. Will I need to let it sit a while after adding before adding the extra juice? Do I need to transfer the cider to an additional vessel before this step?

3. I have Camden tablets to kill off the wild yeasts that may be in the unpasteurized fresh juice. Should I just add one since the other juice is pasteurized, or stick with 3.5 to go with the 1 per gallon rule.

4. As previously stated, I’m an experienced beer brewer. One of the things I am very adamant about is low oxygen brewing. I ferment in corny kegs and Anvil King Chub fermenters (basically a clear keg) and always transfer via closed transfer to a purged keg through a purged transfer line. Is oxidation a big issue with cider making? With adding potassium sorbate and additional juice to back sweeten, what steps can I take to mitigate this issue?

5. Fermentation temps. The website for Fermentis gives AC-4 a pretty broad range for temperatures. What would be the best temperature to set my chamber at?

6. When should I add yeast nutrient? I understand that this is important with cider making. When brewing lagers, I’d always add this in the last 15 minutes of the boil. Since I’m not boiling, when does this step occur?

Thanks!

Is the apple juice preservative free? I'm sure you know about all that but thought I'd ask.