First All-Grain - What did I do wrong?

[Tindel]

So I brewed my first all-grain, DIPA - All Cascade, the other day. It was based on this thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/another-dipa-recipie-219202/

This is what was planned:

DIPA
----
Brewer: Tindel
Style: Imperial IPA
Batch: 2.40 gal - All Grain

Characteristics
---------------
Recipe Gravity: 1.080 OG
Recipe Bitterness: 99 IBU
Recipe Color: 11° SRM
Estimated FG: 1.020
Alcohol by Volume: 7.7%
Alcohol by Weight: 6.1%

Ingredients
-----------
Crystal 20L 0.50 lb, Grain, Mashed
CaraMunich (US) 0.50 lb, Grain, Mashed
Two-row (US) 6.00 lb, Grain, Mashed

Cascade 1.00 oz, Pellet, dry hopped
Cascade 1.00 oz, Pellet, 0 minutes
Cascade 1.00 oz, Pellet, 7 minutes
Cascade 2.00 oz, Pellet, 10 minutes
Cascade 2.00 oz, Pellet, 70 minutes

Generic 1.00 unit, Other, US-05, 1/8 cup slurry from previous batch per Mr. Malty

Notes
-----
Recipe Notes:
Mash at 158*F for 1 hour
Strike Water: Tw=(.2/1.14)(158-70)+158=173ºF w/ 8 quarts = 2.0 Gallons
2ºF drop
Sparge Water: Wa= (170-156)(0.2*7.0+8.0)/(185-170)=14*9.4/15=8.7 qt boiling ~= 2.0 gallons

2 Gallon Strike Water
-0.875 Gallon Grain Absorbtion
+2.0 Gallon Sparge water
-0.5 gallon hop absorption
-0.5 gallon evaporation
------------------------------
2.125 gallon total

So, that's not really what happened.
This is what happened:
I hit 163*F after adding my strike water. so I added 1/4 gallon of water at room temp to get 158. Within 30 minutes I was measuring 148 degree mash temp. Way too low... then I added ~.5 gallon of boiling water (200F at 6500 ft) to bring the mash up to 154. Then I sparged with ~2.0 gallons of boiling water to bring the mash up to 170F. total 4.5 gallons

At some point I started lautering (at a quick speed) and the put the liquor back into the tank. I think I did that right before I added sparge water.

The mash also ended up being 1.5 hours because I thought that I wanted to see the iodine test turn dark, not clear... had it backwards, doh! In retrospect, I probably didn't stir my strike water in well enough, I probably would have hit 158*F and done a better job in general if I had stirred a couple more minutes.

I didn't get a lauter speed, but it was very slow. It took maybe 1.5 hours to get 3 gallons of wort. Final runnings were 1.042. Pre-boil was 1.053 ~2.5 gallons

My final product ended up being about 1.064 - 2 gallons, much less than the 1.080 that I had anticipated. And 50% efficiency if I q-brew calculated it correctly

All gravities are corrected for temperature.

So my main question(s)... how can I get about 1.070ish out of my pre-boil in order to get ~1.080 as my final product? What have I done wrong so that my runnings were so low, and my final runnings were so high? Not enough sparge water? It seems that I wasn't very efficient in removing the sugars in the amount of water used.

Secondary questions: What did putting my first lautering back into my mash do? Do you see anything else I may have done wrong?

I have a citra version of this that I'd like to do better the second time around.

 

[thelastdandy]

i never had luck figuring out an exact amount of sparge water. seems to vary too much. i use 1.25 qts of water to every pound of grain, so the strike water seems close. i would just sparge until you hit your desired pre boil volume. 2 gallons seems low. you'll have to play around with your system to see just how much you will lose to evaporation during the boil so you know when to stop sparging. know how much to sparge.

are you talking about vorlaufing when you say you put your lautering back into the mash? if so, you are just clearing the grains out of the wort before you actually collect it to your boil kettle. you don't want to much grain in the boil because of tannins and such.

if you were collecting runnings that slow it could be that you had a jammed up sparge.
as far as efficiency, you'll collect more sugars with more sparge water. also, the crush of your grain could be a big culprit of low efficiency.

as far as mash temps, always preheat your tun. boil some water and throw it in (if you are using a cooler as a tun) for a little to heat it up. dump it out and then add you grain/strike water. i aim a little high on this temp too. you can always stir the mash to lower the temp instead of rushing around trying to heat more strike water.

 

[thelastdandy]

hope all of that rambling i just did helps you out a little bit.

 

[Tindel]

I didn't vorlauf per se, I actually mostly drained my MLT (yes, I'm using a 5 gallon cooler) and then put the liquor back into the MLT. I think this is where my sparge got stuck.

I hadn't thought about needing to warm my MLT... good advise, I think.

 

[optimatored]

So my main question(s)... how can I get about 1.070ish out of my pre-boil in order to get ~1.080 as my final product? What have I done wrong so that my runnings were so low, and my final runnings were so high? Not enough sparge water? It seems that I wasn't very efficient in removing the sugars in the amount of water used.

Secondary questions: What did putting my first lautering back into my mash do? Do you see anything else I may have done wrong?

I have a citra version of this that I'd like to do better the second time around.

I think you did fine. Did you crush the grain (meaning you or LHBS)? That will play a huge role in your efficiency and perhaps the stuck sparge. In order to get 1.070 to 1.080 you would have to boil out (evap) enough water to get the gravity a higher.

So if you started with a 1.070 pre-boil with 2.83 gallons and boiled it down to 2.5 you would be at about 1.080 gravity. (used beer smith) Your mash temps seem fine, be sure to mix everything till your arm starts to hurt (well maybe) and then check the temp again. This way you know its mixed good.

First time blues... i think your brew day went well!!

 

[scrambledegg81]

Wondering, given I only had time to skim your post (class in 15...), what do you use for your HLT/MT? Seems like it's more of an issue with temperature retention than anything recipe-wise, and a high-quality mash tun is probably the best investment you can make going into AG (i.e. I have 2 DIY Rubbermaid coolers with ball-valves...check out the DIY section, I think the how-to post has been stickied).

 

[ThePearsonFam]

So, couple things here...

1st, +1 to Optimatored for telling you to mix like crazy when doughing in. You'll get small pockets of different temeratures and it will drive you to drink trying to hit the correct temperature. My experience has been, mix like crazy, let stand 5 minutes, mix like crazy, then sample the temperature. Your thermometer probably has some latency (unless you use an electronic one), so let it have time to properly register the temperature of the mash.

Although most people don't put the lautered wort back into the mash tun, it shouldn't have seriously impacted the gravity. My guess is that the grain wasn't properly milled like Optima stated.

As for the 50% efficiency calculation, yes, that's correct. The grains you used had ~ 105 total PPG available. Divide your OG by 105 to determine mash efficiency: (use only the '53' portion of the gravity reading 1.053) 53/105 = ~50%

Lastly, the only way you'll get to your desired post-boil OG is to get a better feel for the process and your system. That'll help you determine your mash efficiency. You've just experienced 50%. You'll probably improve with experience. Most people and software assume 70-75% efficiency by default. For you, that would've been the difference between a pre-boil OG of 1053 and 1073. If your system is limiting you to a mash efficiency of 50%, then you'll have to simply adjust your software/recipes for that 50% efficiency. In other words, bump up your grain bill to support a less efficient system.
2nd, be patient on measuring your mash temp, but, when you finally come to the conclusion that a temperature adjustment needs to be made, make it with SMALL additions.

 

[integrator]

I think your MLT needs work. You shouldn't lose heat like that. Or stir better and go from there. Maybe stick two or three thermometers in there and get readings from different areas.

You do need to preheat the MLT. Here's a tip - Take the amount of water calculated for dough-in and heat it to 175-180 and add that water to the cooler. Stir the water until it hits the dough-in temp. Add grains. Stir. This saves you throwing out your preheat water. I think Bobby posted this tip and it works wonderfully.

 

[Tindel]

I'm using a 5 gallon Home Depot water cooler, like many here. with a single 6"ish CPVC line going across the MLT, with slits cut every 1/2"ish with my hack saw. The line is probably 1/2" above the MLT on the spigot side.

I guess the thing to remember here is to:
1. preheat my MLT - I bet this is where I lost a LOT of my heat from... hadn't even thought of that.
2. stir the grains better. I was getting very variable readings when I added 1/4 gallon of room temp water with 163 degree readings.
3. check my grain crush. AHS crushed my grain. I just checked another bag they sent me with the same purchase order. There is some whole barley grains, and a little bit of dust in the bag... Might be worth hitting them with the rolling pin a bit before my next batch. Will this give me a 25% increase in efficiency? I doubt it.

I'm still a bit confused about efficiency... It seems that I did extract the sugars, but my sparging got watered down, hence the high gravity last runnings. I see two efficiencies here 1) sugar extraction efficiency and 2) MLT efficiency. I think I may have done the sugar extraction well, but my MLT failed to rinse the grains efficiently. Or am I still missing something?

Thanks for all of the great help! This forum is very helpful!

 

[integrator]

Start with pre-heating the MLT.
As far as stirring. I dough-in, stir a few times, then break up any dough balls. I'm not in there more than a few minutes and I don't go back and stir again. Don't go stir-crazy. You just risk losing more heat.

I'm going to guess that your crush is OK. AHS does a lot of milling. I'd say leave the grain as-is and do the things above.

 

[Yooper]

I didn't vorlauf per se, I actually mostly drained my MLT (yes, I'm using a 5 gallon cooler) and then put the liquor back into the MLT. I think this is where my sparge got stuck.

I hadn't thought about needing to warm my MLT... good advise, I think.

I don't understand. You drained the MLT and then put the runnings back in the MLT? Instead of a sparge? I'm trying to picture how it went.

Don't mash at 158! Especially for an IPA or DIPA. You want to mash at 150 or so- you were actually closer before you added boiling water to bring up the temp, so that might be very good for your beer.

Next time, use 1.25 quarts of water per pound of grain. Preheat your MLT, stir the mash well. Vorlauf by just recirculating a quart or two, then drain and sparge (if you're batch sparging), or start the sparge after recirculating just a quart or two if you're fly sparging.

 

[Tindel]

I don't understand. You drained the MLT and then put the runnings back in the MLT? Instead of a sparge? I'm trying to picture how it went.

Don't mash at 158! Especially for an IPA or DIPA. You want to mash at 150 or so- you were actually closer before you added boiling water to bring up the temp, so that might be very good for your beer.

Next time, use 1.25 quarts of water per pound of grain. Preheat your MLT, stir the mash well. Vorlauf by just recirculating a quart or two, then drain and sparge (if you're batch sparging), or start the sparge after recirculating just a quart or two if you're fly sparging.

Here's what happened... I *thought* that I hadn't had starch conversion, because my iodine tests continued to run clear (I now know that the iodine test indicates conversion has happened when it IS clear). So I wasn't sure that I was getting a good reading, so I figured I'd vorlauf a quart or two... and take another reading... well next thing I knew, all of my strike water was in the boil pan. But since I didn't think that I had starch conversion I put it back into the MLT. I then realized that I had my iodine test indication backwards, and I added my sparge water before restarting my lautering.

I believe that stuck sparge started either when I finish draining all of my strike water, or when I added my strike water back into the MLT.

I wanted to mash at 158... to have a more malty flavor.

I was using 1.125 quarts/lb.