Firestone Walker Wookey Jack Clone Attempt

[jason91notch]

Are you sure it is ABV and not ABW?

Positive.
Heres a recipe for Wookey Jack on Brewers friend that is nearly identical to the first one posted, only it is for a 10 gal batch. Has it at 7.4% abv. It looks like it even mentions this thread in the notes.

http://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/33362/clone-firestone-wookey-jack-black-rye-ipa

 

[ipsiad]

Im not doubting you, I just wish I knew how to adjust for that discrepancy. Especially when trying to design my own recipes.
If recipe builders such as Brewers Friend are putting that recipe at 7.4%abv with 65% attenuation, but in reality its finishing around 8.5%, how in the heck does one make a reliable recipe and know how its going to end up?

To fix it in Brewers Friend you just have to set the attenuation to 80% with the custom attenuation option. I don't think it has the ability to predict FG based on changes in mash schedule (not sure if any software out there does).

As for writing reliable recipes, it's difficult to predict precisely how a beer will ferment by recipe alone, because there are so many factors that go into it (some of which are unknown). I wouldn't have predicted, for example, that WLP002 would ferment this recipe down so low, but it does. Formulas used by brewing software will give you a ballpark figure, but they won't always hit the exact numbers. Experience and empirical data (either your own or from others) will get you the rest of the way.

 

[skeezerpleezer]

Positive.
Heres a recipe for Wookey Jack on Brewers friend that is nearly identical to the first one posted, only it is for a 10 gal batch. Has it at 7.4% abv. It looks like it even mentions this thread in the notes.

http://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/33362/clone-firestone-wookey-jack-black-rye-ipa

It also says it has a FG of 1.029, not 1.015.

 

[jason91notch]

It also says it has a FG of 1.029, not 1.015.

Thats exactly my point. It says that because its assuming a 66.5% attenuation, which is middle of the road for what WLP002 is advertised as attenuating to.

 

[jason91notch]

To fix it in Brewers Friend you just have to set the attenuation to 80% with the custom attenuation option. I don't think it has the ability to predict FG based on changes in mash schedule (not sure if any software out there does).

As for writing reliable recipes, it's difficult to predict precisely how a beer will ferment by recipe alone, because there are so many factors that go into it (some of which are unknown). I wouldn't have predicted, for example, that WLP002 would ferment this recipe down so low, but it does. Formulas used by brewing software will give you a ballpark figure, but they won't always hit the exact numbers. Experience and empirical data (either your own or from others) will get you the rest of the way.

Yeah, setting the attenuation to 80% is how I fixed it in my personal recipe, and I agree that there are so many factors throughout the brewing process to nail down an exact outcome every time. That being said, if scores of people are attenuating WLP002 to 80%, then maybe White Labs should update their rating for that yeast. Getting 15% more attenuation out of a yeast than advertised can, as we have discovered here, lead to a completely different beer than you were shooting for.

 

[TorribleBrew]

So I had this beer for the first time tonight, and wow. friggin delicious. My question about the clone is, they all come up short, (according to my calculator anyway) on abv and IBU's. For example, the original recipe on page 1 of this thread comes up as having a abv of 7.4%, and 59 IBU's, well short of the 8.3%, 80IBU real Wookey Jack. What gives?

Hey Jason,

I don't think anyone has addressed your question about IBUs. Matt at Firestone is getting a large portion of his IBUs from the whirlpool addition. In this addition you are still getting isomerizaiton of the alpha acids albeit at a lesser rate. With a large whirlpool addition you are getting massive aroma with significant bittering if you use enough hops. However, most homebrew software do not account for the actual bittering that is going on, especially in a long 30 minute whirlpool. In response to my email to Matt at Firestone (reference page 24 of this thread), he said you should probably decrease the middle bittering addition from the recipe on page 1 and focus on a larger whirlpool addition.

He also said their original gravity is approximately 1.072 and not 1.080 with a FG of around 1.012, significantly drier than 1.016. Firestone and homebrewers trying to mimic Firestone's beers are able to get this kind of attenuation by having a very fermentable wort. This is achieved with a lower mash temp (145) for 60 min and then increasing it to 155 for 15min. Also, the fermentation regimen is very important to see that type of attenuation. You would want to start the fermentation at 62F allowing it to rise to 67 after 24hrs and then finishing it off in the low 70s. This type of temperature regimen allows the yeast to stay very active throughout the entire fermentation with out throwing off a lot of esters in the beginning and then finishing off with a nice diacetyl rest.

I hope this helps!

 

[jason91notch]

Hey Jason,

I dont think anyone has addressed your question about IBU's. Matt at Firestone is getting a large portion of his IBUs from the whirlpool addition. In this addition you are still getting isomerizaiton of the alpha acids albeit at a lesser rate. With a large whirlpool addition you are getting massive aroma with significant bittering if you use enough hops. However, most homebrew software do not account for the actual bittering that is going on, especially in a long 30 minute whirlpool. In response to my email to Matt at Firestone (reference page 24 of this thread), he said you should probably decrease the middle bittering addition from the recipe on page 1 and focus on a larger whirlpool addition.

He also said their original gravity is approximately 1.072 and not 1.080 with a FG of around 1.012, significantly drier than 1.016. Firestone and homebrewers trying to mimic Firestone's' beers are able to get this kind of attenuation by having a very fermentable wort. This is achieved with a lower mash temp (145) for 60 min and then increasing it to 155 for 15min. Also, the fermentation regimen is very important to see that type of attenuation. You would want to start the fermentation at 62F allowing it to rise to 67 after 24hrs and then finishing it off in the low 70s. This type of temperature regimen always the yeast to stay very active throughout the entire fermentation with out throwing off a lot of esters in the beginning and then finishing off with a nice diacetyl rest.

I hope this helps!

Wow, thanks for all the info! I hadn't ever considered whirlpooling as a way to get more bitterness, but it makes sense. Also, I find it interesting that they finish around 1.012. That beer didn't taste that dry to me. Back to the drawing board for my 3 gal BIAB recipe...
Thanks again for the info!

 

[samandbekah]

Wow, thanks for all the info! I hadn't ever considered whirlpooling as a way to get more bitterness, but it makes sense. Also, I find it interesting that they finish around 1.012. That beer didn't taste that dry to me. Back to the drawing board for my 3 gal BIAB recipe...
Thanks again for the info!

Yeah those numbers make sense... I've brewed this clone twice now with great success. My OG was at 1.072 and I finished at around 1.016 - so didn't get exactly there but close enough. It tastes delicious and I am quite happy with it.

IMO - this clone/beer is so good that even if you miss your numbers slightly, you're still going to end up with an incredible homebrew.

I'm brewing batch 3 this weekend, can't wait

 

[MeanDeuce]

Tried my extract version I brewed back in January last night. All the dry hop and bitterness was gone. It was like a dark lite ale. gotta drink this guy early.

 

[guillermo81]

if i am using the bruns water spreadsheet, what water profile do you consider to fit this beer? can i use the pale ale profile to enhance the hops? or the black hoppy profile?

i have tasted this beer for a while and i think it is very balanced, but i dont know if the black balanced profile could fit this beer on the spreasheet. Whats your opinion?

And just to be sure, the recipe calls for carafa III malt, it that the one with husk?

Thanks!

 

[Beezer94]

And just to be sure, the recipe calls for carafa III malt, it that the one with husk?
Thanks!

The description before the recipe says "de-bittered" so that would be the carafa special, the huskless.

 

[drawdy10]

Wookey Jack wins GABF Gold for American Black Ale

 

[KCS_brewing]

So my LHBS only carries Wyeast and I don't really want to order WLP002 and wait a few days for it to come in as I was hoping to try out this recipe this weekend.... Anyone have an idea of the real attenuation of WY1968? I've always heard the two are the same since they come from Fullers but does anyone have any real experience swapping them out?

 

[skeezerpleezer]

Should be very close. Make sure you pitch a lot of yeast, give it plenty of oxygen, and mash at the right temps

 

[jstro]

I am planning on brewing the above Wookey Jack recipe this weekend. Mostly b/c it saves me an additional trip to the brew shop, I will likely get two tubes of yeast and bypass the starter (or do a small one the day before). After reading the above posts on yeast for this, I'm tempted to pitch one tube of 002 and one of 007...thoughts?

 

[sethlovex]

Firestones yeast is detailed earlier in this thread; that said, I have brewed this twice using different yeast strains and both batches have been excellent although not quite wookie jack. One of my friends said I was an alchemist after tasting it. Definetly a great beer and a great recipe. I say go for it

 

[TheHairyHop]

I refuse to believe that this doesn't have summit in it. I get onion flavors from the real deal

 

[samandbekah]

I am planning on brewing the above Wookey Jack recipe this weekend. Mostly b/c it saves me an additional trip to the brew shop, I will likely get two tubes of yeast and bypass the starter (or do a small one the day before). After reading the above posts on yeast for this, I'm tempted to pitch one tube of 002 and one of 007...thoughts?

I say go for it man... just post your results!!! This will be my next brew, definitely my favorite clone/homebrew at the moment...

I'd definitely go with a starter... especially if you intend on hitting the temps the recipe calls for. You're going to end up with lots of fermentable wort if so, hate to see that go to waste!

 

[guillermo81]

If my LHBS dont have carafa 3 special, can i sustitute that malt with blackprinz? or can i use plain cafara 3?

thanks!

 

[Beezer94]

If my LHBS dont have carafa 3 special, can i sustitute that malt with blackprinz? or can i use plain cafara 3?

thanks!

Blackprinz would be better as it's Briess' version of carafa special.

 

[guillermo81]

thank you!!!

FYI... asking Matt Brynildson on twitter about water profile, here is what he said me:

"Wookey Jack brewing salts - we use RO treated water with a 2/3 Gypsum 1/3 CaCl- addition to get the total Ca addition up to 100ppm. Kettle 2"

My only doubt is what does Matt means about kettle 2????? same amount of salts on the kettle?? what do you think?

 

[mtnagel]

Not sure what that means, but when I enter that into Brun Water I get 1.16 g/gal gypsum and 0.39 g/gal CaCl, which gets 99 ppm Ca, 171 ppm sulfate and 49.2 ppm chloride.

Does that sound right?

 

[Francis]

Finally gonna brew this mofo tomorrow. Went to dry dock (brew hut) after work today and they had everything except the cararye. I bumped the rye by .25lbs and added .25lbs crystal 60. Hopefully that's okay??

Will post results and most likely some drunken jibber jabber.

 

[guillermo81]

Not sure what that means, but when I enter that into Brun Water I get 1.16 g/gal gypsum and 0.39 g/gal CaCl, which gets 99 ppm Ca, 171 ppm sulfate and 49.2 ppm chloride.

Does that sound right?

and what about residual alkalinity? it would be negative and wort ph would be something like 5.0 or lower...

 

[mtnagel]

I'm still learning how to use the spreadsheet, but I get an estimated pH of 5.21 when I enter those grains (using "roast malt" for everything except the 2 row - is that correct?).

Can you explain what I'm doing wrong?

 

[Francis]

I think you would enter the rye as a "base malt".

I brewed this on Saturday and added 5grams gypsum to the mash and 4 to the sparge water. Didn't have time for a starter so pitched 2 packets of S-04. Expensive brew but I think it'll be worth it! Thanks for the recipe!

 

[guillermo81]

I'm still learning how to use the spreadsheet, but I get an estimated pH of 5.21 when I enter those grains (using "roast malt" for everything except the 2 row - is that correct?).

Can you explain what I'm doing wrong?

it all depends of your water report and initial pH...and yes...change your rye malt to base malt...it will increase your final pH

 

[mtnagel]

it all depends of your water report and initial pH...and yes...change your rye malt to base malt...it will increase your final pH

But I put that I was using 100 RO water, so it doesn't depend on my water report input. I'm not sure where it gets the pH from when using RO water, but changing the pH on tabs 1 or 2, don't change the estimated pH.

So when I change the rye malt to a base malt (all other are roast malt except the 2 row), the pH goes up to 5.36 with 100% RO, the mineral additions I mentioned (1.16 g/gal gypsum and 0.39 g/gal CaCl) and using 9 gallons mash water and 0 sparge (I BIAB).

Any idea why it's not predicting what you are saying will happen?

 

[guillermo81]

But I put that I was using 100 RO water, so it doesn't depend on my water report input. I'm not sure where it gets the pH from when using RO water, but changing the pH on tabs 1 or 2, don't change the estimated pH.

So when I change the rye malt to a base malt (all other are roast malt except the 2 row), the pH goes up to 5.36 with 100% RO, the mineral additions I mentioned (1.16 g/gal gypsum and 0.39 g/gal CaCl) and using 9 gallons mash water and 0 sparge (I BIAB).

Any idea why it's not predicting what you are saying will happen?

Even if you are using RO water, you must have a report of your ions, it doesnt mean that your RO water has 0 ppm on all your ions... Put that values on the existing water profile on tab 3 and zero dilution percentage to give a more accurate result...

Also put your cararye as crystal malt on tab 4

 

[BabyGotBock]

Hello all,
I am relatively new to homebrewing and I am wanting tot ry this recipe, but I just have one question.
For the dry hopping schedule, is it the first hop addition for days 1-3, and then the second on day 4 til fermentation is complete?
Or do I add the first hop addition on day 3, then on day 7 add the next?

Sorry for the noob question, but this has got me puzzled.