Fermenting Siason temp

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tnsen

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Greetings hop heads...I was just getting ready to brew my Brewers Best extract kit Belgian Saison..(thankx Santa)...I was causually flipping thru my last issue of BYO Magazine (December 2012)..when I stopped dead in my tracks.page 9 a small section on new products , a pic of the yeast I was getting ready to open and rehydrate. it says "ment to ferment @ warm temps..aka 90 degrees f ...I decided to wait and do a bit of homework b4 proceeding, I went to the web page listed and it says "fermentation can be compleated in 5 days above 63 degrees" ..hmmmm my first Saison (biab allgrain, Wyeast 3724 belgian Saison) was a partial success..good beer but dident finish up b4 bottling lotta foam , after the fact I learned that it should of been fermented warmer. ahhh the learning curve, so not wanting to repeat that mistake. what temp should I shoot for ?..my home gets average 70F...has anybody used a heating pad under the ale pail? maybe a electric blanket with a winter coat wrapped around...my thoughts are to listen to the web page of the product and not the magazine,,,am I missing something?...any thoughts from the pros on this site..thankx....Tom
 
i've had nothing but issues with 3724, and i've gotten it well above 90*
What is the saison yeast you're using with this next brew? we can give you a better idea of what you should be going with.

Saisons do prefer hotter fermentation though... when i've done them (besides the 3724) i usually keep them around 75ish.
 
Rivinin...the next batch is Lallemand Belle Saison yeast..its a new product..I just got off the web site it looks like I am suppose to pitch @90 degrees no aeration needed..hmmmm
 
Pitching at 90 degrees doesn't sound right. They're probably telling you to rehydrate the yeast at 90 degrees. Pitch in the mid-60's, hold it there a day or two, then let it warm up. That's my recommendation. My guess is that it's the French saison yeast, and not the DuPont one, so it won't be as finicky.
 
OH! it's the new dry stuff! i have high hopes for that one.

as per the instructions on the website

Sprinkle yeast on surface of 10 times its weight of clean sterilized (boiled) tap water at 30-35°C (86-92°F). Do
not use wort, or distilled or reverse osmosis water, as loss in viability may result.

Leave undisturbed for 15
minutes then suspend yeast completely and leave it for 5 more minutes at 30-35°C (86-92°F). Then adjust
temperature to wort and inoculate without delay.

Attemperate by blending portions of wort at 5-minute intervals, below 10°C (50°F) at a time. Do not allow
attemperation to be carried out by natural heat loss as this will take too long and could result in loss of viability
or vitality.

Temperature shock, at greater than 10°C (50°F), will cause formation of petite mutants, leading to long or
incomplete fermentation and possible formation of undesirable flavours

-----------------------------

for fermentation, it's pretty basic and says keep it around or above 63*...
which is strange, usually they give a small usual few degrees and not just one...

i'd honestly get it in the low 60s, pitch, and let it ramp up slowly. till it dies off (possibly 68-70ish) from what little info they have on the website.
 
I think you have a handle on this. A ramp up is better than a ramp down. I like to ferment my Saison at 78 degrees (or as close as i can get to that in the winter) For yeast I use WLP566.
 
i used 566 2 saisons ago and was a very nice lighter saison funk... i appreciated this a ton. last one i finally used the 3711 and am pleasently surprised by the funk that it gives off.

SAISONS! nomz.
 
Thankx for the replies...rivenin..you got, it its the new dry stuff..do you really think I should treat it just any other?....pitching @60 and ferment in the 70s?...how do you guys get those higher temps?...I am considering a heating pad under my bucket with an old sleeping bag wrapped around it , or maybe an electric blanket. as my home barely gets 70 this time of year...I dont brew saisons enoughto build a ferment box of some sort...thankx againe..great site....Tom
 
Traditionally speaking Saisons were fermented at pretty high temps. They don't call it "Farmhouse Ale" for no reason. I have only used the Wyeast Belgian Saison blend, yes it is a little high maintenance but it will certainly get the job done...and makes a GREAT tasting saison, last time I used it I put it in my shed were it was 90* to 95* every day and it ended up great.
That said, however, follow the directions on the package of yeast...if you stall out later you can always ramp up your heat. Don't be surprised if it takes longer than 5 days @ 70* though.
 
+1 to starting low and ramping up the temperature as fermenting slows. I'd just use whatever temp you usually chill to, say the mid to high 60's. The initial ferment will probably push it up by 5 or 10 degrees and when it slows you can use one of the many techniques suggested to raise it a few more degrees. It will ferment either way, but this profile will avoid fusel alcohol which is produced early in the process at warmer temperatures. It's later in the ferment that you want that "Belgian" flavor to come out. Look for a gradual rise over about a 10 day period. I've brewed many a Saison and this profile has made some awesome ones with many different strains...
Let us know how it turns out... dehydrated Belgian yeast, brewing gets better every day!!!!!!!!
 
Thankx Demus...I may give that one a try..has anybody tried the heating pad under the ale pail?..or an electric blanket wrapped around the bucket? these are just a few thoughts I am having..keep in mind I am in Michigan my home barley gets 70...thankx againe...Tom
 
I've only ever used wyeast 3726 farmhouse ale yeast - a typical saison strain. I've used it for a low and high gravity brew. Both times I've pitched at about 75F and started slowly heating up the fermenter. The first time with a room heater in a small bathroom (very inefficient), the second time with a heating blanket wrapped around the carboy AND the room heater in the small bathroom (much more efficient). Both times I've made it to 90F within 24 hours of pitching and MAINTAINED the 90+F for the FULL ferment (only 4 days). Once you get to 90F, with full fermentation going, and a blanket wrapped around your fermenter it's pretty easy to maintain the temp by using the blanket or space heater as needed. I've been quite astounded by the outcome of the brews and would have never thought you'd end up with something drinkable using those kinds of temperatures. I would suggest following the recommended temperature range suggested by the yeast maker and consider that you'll get more of that typical saison funk the higher you stay in their recommended range.
 
Wyeast 3711 is bomber. Start at 70F ramp up to about 85F. Spice and everything nice with a Belgium. I have used a heating pad wrapped around fermenter. Make sure you have blow-off. Love this Saison yeast.
 
I have two brews I'm doing this coming weekend... 3711 is sitting in the fridge. This yeast makes me anxious to brew. It's like a caged animal waiting to tear some wort apart, hardcore, to the bones.

One is based on Norther Brewer's De Belge Farmhouse IPA and the other is the How Rye am I? rye saison recipe here on HBT. Gonna let the 3711 chew up the IPA at 75-80 for 10 days or so, and then let it mellow (for this yeast at least) at 71ish for another 3 weeks for the rye.
 
3711 is a beast! I've had it attenuate well over 90%, so if you're an all-grain brewer don't be afraid to mash warm to preserve some malty chew. I'd also avoid any sugar additions that are common in Belgian recipes, this monster just doesn't need any help making a nice funky, dry saison!!
 
Real men ferment their saisons with 3724 and have 0 problems. haha! the how rye i am recipe is superb with 3724. OP you have been given some sound advice. start it out mid to low 60's and ramp it up with your electric blanket. you will be fine.
 
Good advice it is, and I will take it, I am thinking about putting my bucket in my utility tub, fill with water around it, aquarium heater, with a small aquarium water pump to circulate the water around it,with some form of cover.."How Rye I Am"....hmmmm that sounds great, but I couldent find a recipie (5 gal) anywhere in the recipie database...where can I get one?...and thankx ......Tom
 
tnsen said:
Thankx Demus...I may give that one a try..has anybody tried the heating pad under the ale pail?..or an electric blanket wrapped around the bucket? these are just a few thoughts I am having..keep in mind I am in Michigan my home barley gets 70...thankx againe...Tom

I live in Michigan also, I use a heating pad wrapped around the side of the fermenter and it will bring it up to at least the mid 70s from 55 ambient.
 
I'm doing a straightup 1.060 (1.054 pre-sugar addition) Saison using WLP565 on Saturday. I've got a big 3L starter going now, which I accidentally made @ 1.050. Pitch rate should be slightly below recommended, O2 will be injected heavily. I intend on the pitch at 75 and ramp 2 degree a day strategy using FlexWatt heater wrapped around my bucket. I'll aim for 90-92 or so, and will be doing a sugar addition around day 3.

Myt starter is only around 70 degrees which I am wondering about. I think I should heat that up too.
 
I'm doing a straightup 1.060 (1.054 pre-sugar addition) Saison using WLP565 on Saturday. I've got a big 3L starter going now, which I accidentally made @ 1.050. Pitch rate should be slightly below recommended, O2 will be injected heavily. I intend on the pitch at 75 and ramp 2 degree a day strategy using FlexWatt heater wrapped around my bucket. I'll aim for 90-92 or so, and will be doing a sugar addition around day 3.

Myt starter is only around 70 degrees which I am wondering about. I think I should heat that up too.
In my experience higher gravity starters yeild more cells, but as the abv gets high it also leads to cell death if you don't pitch right away. My guess is that starter will grow 200-300 billion new cells. I prefer to underpitch my Saison to get a little more flavor out of the yeast.
 
In my experience higher gravity starters yeild more cells, but as the abv gets high it also leads to cell death if you don't pitch right away. My guess is that starter will grow 200-300 billion new cells. I prefer to underpitch my Saison to get a little more flavor out of the yeast.

Well, if you count on the WLP best buy date being 4 months after the born on date, then I have 35% viability. Yeast calcs say I should end up with 178 and need around 230. I made the starter last night, and will brew Saturday so I'm hoping I timed it right, and is why I'm wondering about heating it up some.

I'm a little dubious on the accuracy of all the yeast calculators, but I'm certainly not worried about what I'm doing. It'll be plenty, and will do the job nicely. Being the first time I've tried the Dupont though, I'm going into it with both eyes open.
 
Your blog is great! You have some seriously great info in there. I found the mashing stuff super interesting.

I agree about the viability. I should clarify, I don't doubt the accuracy of the calculators as much as the viability results, esp. with the White Labs vials just as your blog explains.

If I asume that I have 90% viability, My starter would give me around 300b, and recommends ~230b. Should I consider taking a chance on finishing out the starter, pitching 1/2 and washing the other half?

My recipe is sound, so my two goals for this brew are to maximize the Saison output from the yeast and minimize the legendary lag and stall from the Dupont.
 
I've never had any Trinity beers before, but there's a recent BBRadio podcast at the gabf where the brewmaster said he does there farmhouse beers with 3711/3726/Brett, and he doesn't control the temp at all, and it will get crazy high. Their last batch got up to 118 F! And over 110 F is common for them.
 
Your blog is great! You have some seriously great info in there. I found the mashing stuff super interesting.

I agree about the viability. I should clarify, I don't doubt the accuracy of the calculators as much as the viability results, esp. with the White Labs vials just as your blog explains.

If I asume that I have 90% viability, My starter would give me around 300b, and recommends ~230b. Should I consider taking a chance on finishing out the starter, pitching 1/2 and washing the other half?

My recipe is sound, so my two goals for this brew are to maximize the Saison output from the yeast and minimize the legendary lag and stall from the Dupont.

Thanks!

To minimize lag you'll want to pitch yeast when it reaches high krausen. Which makes it difficult to estimate your cell count without a microscope. However, if you undr pitch you'll get more flavor out of the yeast, but you'll risk a long fermentation time.

Your plan sounds fine. You've given it some good thought. I would probably pitch half of the 3 Litter starter and refrigerate the rest. If your Saison yeast works like mine it's about 2 billion cells per ml of thick cake from a starter.
 
So I pulled 1L off and stuck it in the fridge. It's already dropped what looks like a decent pile of yeast for later. On Saturdays Saison brew, my efficiency came out better than intended, so I added a couple gallons and stretched it into two fermenters. I pitched the remaining 2L into two buckets of 4G each @ 1.050. With the turbinado sugar addition that I made last night (1.5lb) it should be equivalent to 1.060.

The WLP565 was pitched at 73F, and heavily aerated with a tank and wand. It was off like a rocket in 3 hours and down to 1.010 as of last night (36-48 hours). The temps were around 78-80. The sugar was eaten by this morning, and now I'll ramp temps further to mid-high 80's. Airlock smelled like tropical island air. Coconut, pineapple, just wow.

The only thing that makes me happier than the yeast going INSANE, is the fact that I have another 1L starter in the fridge.
 
Day 10 and it's down to 1.007. I'm taking it off the heat and letting it freefall to 70-75.
1.060 > 1.007 should be 89% attenuation. Not bad. ;)

I use terrarium floor heaters for snakes and stuff. It's the Flexwatt 11" and I use 2foot sectioins on 5G plastic buckets. You must use a temperature controller with it. I can't remember the link of the place where I bought it off e top of my head, but I'll try to add it here later.

edit: reptilebasics.com or bigappleherp.com
 
OK....I just had to dig this back up...I went with the aquarium heater trick...my bucket in a utility tub (about 2ft square)...with a few old winter jackets on top to insulate..(I floated a few ballons on top to keep the jackets off the water ,worked great)...fermented @90 degrees 6 days....one week @70 degrees...5 weeks in secondary (just dident have time to bottle)...4 weeks in bottles @ 65 to 70 degrees...chilled 3 days...and WOW...good beer...1.05 og....1.00 fg....golden color....great head...(insert head jokes here)...smells good and tastes great ...not bitter...and pleasent on the palet...one of the best I have brewed...and will do again....just in case anybody was intreasted....Tom
 
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