Fermenting lagers with ale yeast at true ale temps??

[Denny]

Good luck. If the choices I've offered don't work for you, I'm not sure what will.

 

[rockfish42]

The only suggestion that hasn't come up is brewing under pressure using WLP925, other than that there isn't any other way to make what you're describing.

 

[fergy89406]

A premature post..... bottles are only in a few days in carbonation phase, but I had to put one in the fridge to try. But... aside from the lack of carbonation.... here's the verdict:

Smells like a Maibock.

Tastes like a Maibock.

Looks like a Maibock.

But it's not a Maibock.

Regardless of what you some of you may think, I do truly appreciate the input I got from you... but I do feel that the parameters of my overall experiment were lost on deaf ears. A Maibock grain & hop recipe, with an ale yeast fermented at true ale temps.

But, as of this post, I can say that I have made a very relatively close "Maibock" without it being a true Maibock... without the need for cold fermentation of any kind (and yes, I do consider doing ales at the lower end a type of cold fermentation). Grist, Ale Yeast at Ale temps (70ish).

Now.. there is a slight estery presence in the finish.... but it's neither fruity or spicy.... just the normal ale yeast ester. But it's not pronounced, and it is at the end of the swallow. Aside from that, the WL Australian Ale yeast is a breadwinner (in my book) to create a truly malt-forward Lager-clone.

I would like for others to give this a try.... I know the WL Australian Ale yeast is seasonal, but when it swings around, give it a go. It is a far cleaner ale yeast than any of WL or WY that I've used to date. No need for a cold(er) fermentation temp, no fuss, no muss. It clears very well (although the yeast is a bit finicky when it comes to moving your fermenter around... just look out for that), and it does the job as it clearly states on the website.

Let me clarify as to the statements in my previous posts about the cleanliness of the yeast. While there are a lot of "clean" ale yeasts, they are not without their ester productions... i.e. fruity, spicy, or a combination of both. Now... a "clean" ale yeast can and will produce said esters.... but at a lower level than others, hence the "clean" name. Now, as "clean" as the ale yeasts that were given as recommendations were.... they still produced too much of stated esters than I was looking for. Also, the other nullifying fact of the yeasts given as recommendations were that they were too attenuating, i.e. too dry for the style that I was shooting for. A malty lager is just as a malty ale.... not too dry, but not too sweet. It has to be that right balance.

The hunt for my Great White Buffalo panned out, though. On a whim, and looking through the stats and reviews on White Labs website, the Australian Ale Yeast was, by far, the closest thing that I would ever find for this experiment. Very very clean and malt forward.

And when I say it tastes like a Maibock.... I mean it tastes like a Maibock... not Dead Guy (I can see that little gem of a "gotcha" running through a lot of minds). I know what a real Maibock tastes like, and I know what Rogue Dead Guy tastes like.

I could propose to send a bottle to true lagerheads to make the final judgement though. But, with my taste palette, and my judge for cleanliness, I will say right now that I struck the proverbial gold.

 

[Airborneguy]

Denny... it comes down to what clean can be defined. For me, clean comes with a very neutral, non-estery type yeast. While 1007 and 1056 are clean in most sense, they do still produce either fruity flavors or distinct esters, unless fermented at the lower end of their range.

The whole idea for my experiment is to get as close as possible at normal ale temp range (67-70deg) to create something as close as possible to a maibock, without the use of lager yeast or fermenting at the lower end.

As I stated before, it's not that I discount other ideas or recommendations. But I don't want speculation or theory, or regurgitated notions from what they've been told or read or heard.

How did this get to so many pages?

People do what you are attempting all of the time: ferment a similar wort to a typical lager with a clean ale yeast. What more are you looking for? There's even styles that emulate this exact goal, kolsch for example.

See the part I bolded? That's really the only "argument" you can have here. Different palates are going to perceive and describe "clean" differently. If the simple fact that kolsch and other yeasts produce less esters than other ale yeasts isn't enough for you, then go ahead with your "experiment", but I really don't get what the argument or confusion is here.

 

[fergy89406]

The "argument" Airborne is that for most, achieving pseudo-lagers means fermenting on the colder side of the ale temp range. Like with a Kolsch ale.... DID NOT FIT THE PARAMETERS OF MY EXPERIMENT

Kolsch yeast is a bit too attenuating, leaving the beer a little too dry for the style I was trying to recreate.... DID NOT FIT THE PARAMETERS OF MY EXPERIMENT

And yes, Airborne... I've agreed with you on the whole clean thing.... it is a relative statement, for the most part. What's clean to me may not be clean to someone else. To me, as I've iterated previous times.... no fruity esters, no spicy esters, no sulfur, no diacetyl... or, at the very least, very minimal. The yeast also needed great flocculation.... i.e. clear beer without an extended time and/or cold to help clear...... unlike Kolsch yeast.... DID NOT FIT THE PARAMETERS OF MY EXPERIMENT

Now... the reason this thread has gotten so many pages in it is that it turned out into a form of an argument, and at best a reiteration of everything I was told.... can't be done. Cannot be done because the yeast I was looking for didn't exist. Couldn't be done because you can't make a lager-like ale at the higher end of ale yeast temps.

I.E. If you don't use these kinds of yeast, you're not going to accomplish what you're looking for.

I.E. If you don't ferment at a cooler temp, you're not going to accomplish what you're looking for.

I.E. Making pseudo-lagers is a waste of time and money.... you're not going to accomplish what you're looking for, so don't even try.

I like to disprove things. And I believe I have here.

I am more than happy to send you a bottle for you to try, so you can taste my method of madness.

 

[MisterTipsy]

I'm going "one up you" and make a sour ale with lager yeast fermented at saison temperatures!

 

[Airborneguy]

I tend to agree that there is no such thing as a 'pseudo lager'. As a lager lover and brewer, I can almost always tell the difference. But for some people, a clean yeast will get them close enough. I guess I just don't understand the disagreement between you and the others here. Maybe you just have a very discerning palate, more so than most. Some people really don't have the best palates and cannot even tell the difference between some of the more closely related styles.

 

[fergy89406]

And that's where the gist of the arguments and disapproval on my part stemmed from..... while a lot of the yeasts that were recommended are considered "clean", they really aren't as they're characterized to be..... the yeasts that are characterized as "clean", in the realm of all ale yeasts, tend to show the least amounts of the ale yeast esters and characteristics... but that doesn't mean that they don't produce them. Fruitiness is the one of the biggest, diacetyl comes in second, spiciness third, and at the very end would be sulphur. And I do have a good palette... or else I wouldn't be as good of a chef as I am. I can pick up on the slightest note of any of these characteristics. That's another reason why I got uppity when people tried to tell me clean is clean. Clean is not clean, not in the very least.

For what I was aiming towards.... nothing fit the bill. I truly needed an ale yeast that didn't produce any fruit or spice esters, practically diacetyl-free, produced no sulphur notes, and attenuated at the right amount so that it kept some malt sweetness, but not too much.

I really lucked out when I found out about WLP009 Australian Ale. Produces a clean, malty beer.. which a Maibock is. Produces bready esters, and is very malt-centric. Doesn't accent the hops in the least. Ferments very clean (i.e. my definition of clean) at higher temperatures (another one of my static points), flocculates very well and attenuates just enough.

 

[JasonToews]

Steam beer is a highly effervescent beer made by using lager yeasts at warm fermentation temperatures. Give it a try, ever had Anchors steam beer?

 

[Denny]

And I do have a good palette... or else I wouldn't be as good of a chef as I am. I can pick up on the slightest note of any of these characteristics. That's another reason why I got uppity when people tried to tell me clean is clean. Clean is not clean, not in the very least.

You act like you're the only one here with a good palate (see how it's spelled?). I not only take issue with that, I find it offensive.

 

[fergy89406]

Thank you Denny for taking offense to my statement. It is just what I was wanting. Yep... you got me. I just wanted to piss you off. And thank you for correcting my spelling. That was an obvious mistake, and I take full responsibility for it.

But that doesn't make my statement untrue. "Clean" is not clean. As Airborne said... "Clean" is relative. What's "clean" for you, is not "clean" for me. What I deem "clean" will never pass for your ideal of "clean".

Let bygones be bygones. Lift up your glass, make a toast, and drink it down. You and I have obviously butted heads about this matter.... so let's leave it be.

 

[motobrewer]

you do understand that Denny has a commercial yeast strain named after him....right?


but no, you've been brewing for like a year, you must know more about yeast/fermentation than him. oh, and about "cleanliness"...."clean is not clean"...freakin Bruce Lee of brewing over here.

 

[Yooper]

Alright, that's enough. Personal attacks and snide comments are not going to be tolerated in this forum.

My only input on this topic is that a lager is a lager and an ale is an ale- fermenting with ale yeast at ale temps makes an ale. I can taste the difference, usually- but pacman yeast at 60 degrees could definitely fool me.

 

[FarmerTed]

Coming up on my brewing schedule is to try a Premium American Lager with Wyeast 2112, California Lager.

On Brew Strong, I once heard John Palmer ask Jamil Zainasheff what styles he would ferment with 2112. Jamil said California Common and Robust Porter. No other styles, and scarcely any more discussion. Jamil compared making any other lager with 2112 to making a Saison with S-04, or something equally outlandish. It was pretty clear that Palmer had a different opinion, but he just said "Hmm."

2112 is one of four yeasts the manufacturer recommends for Premium American Lager! Granted, it's the fourth choice, but I'll go out on a a limb and say that it would make a better lager than a Saison made with S-04.

Jamil's only homebrewing goal is/was to win competitions. He wasn't really interested in experimenting or going outside of style guidelines, so you have to take what he said with a grain of salt.

 

[stamandster]

Check out Brewing TV Episode 53. They do a whole show on lager workarounds. There might be something useful for you in there.

Yeah he used Wyeast Bohemian 2124 Lager at Ale temps. They said it was "clean"... err....

 

[Airborneguy]

Jamil's only homebrewing goal is/was to win competitions. He wasn't really interested in experimenting or going outside of style guidelines, so you have to take what he said with a grain of salt.

Watch it, saying negative things about god isn't really appreciated around here (except by me).

 

[Denny]

Watch it, saying negative things about god isn't really appreciated around here (except by me).

So, you guys know Jamil pretty well, huh? I do and you're wrong. For one thing, he hasn't entered a homebrew comp in years.

 

[Airborneguy]

How did I imply that I know him? All I let on through my comment is that I like hearing negative things about him. I didn't say anything about his childish 'humor', recipes that are created solely to hit style guidelines, or anything else I believe. I definitely don't know him. From the podcasts, I can tell I wouldn't want to soend 5 minutes around him.

 

[motobrewer]

recipes that are created solely to hit style guidelines,

that makes him a bad guy? he wrote a book on "brewing classic styles". his podcast was about "brewing classic styles". maybe that's what he likes to do?

personally I never heard anything in his podcasts to make me thing he was a jerk (or, to make me "like hearing bad things about him", which is the most clever way I've heard for calling somebody a d-bag)

 

[Yooper]

You guys! Knock it off!

Denny and Jamil are both two of the nicest guys around. They are very different, but both have been exceedingly gracious to me. I've appreciated all of the knowledge imparted from the websites and podcasts, and they have helped advance homebrewing techniques and even legislation making homebrewing legal in places. (Particularly Denny through the AHA).

I happen to like both men very much, although I don't know either of them very well. I have a lot of respect for both of them.

If you don't care for some of the perhaps sophomoric humor Jamil has shown on a podcast or two, that's fine. Don't listen! I don't laugh at fart jokes anymore myself. (um, ok, actually I do). But to denigrate someone you don't even know on our forum is really over the line. If you don't wish to meet him, or know him, that's certainly up to you. But I will tell you that having a beer with him is a good time. I don't have to love his book (although I do) to acknowledge his contribution. I don't have to like him (although I do) to use mrmalty.com's pitching rate calculator.

We are WAY off topic.

I'd like you to think of me as the mom around here, reminding you of the Golden Rule. If you can't say something nice, then perhaps you should STFU. At least that is the way my mom taught me.

Seriously- be kind. Stay on topic. Express your opinions on the topic we are discussing, and feel free to disagree. But let's not turn into a mud-slinging place where negativity is accepted. We are ALL better than that.

 

[pm5k00]

I do my Oktoberfest with WLP 007 @ 64F then cold condition for a month or two. comes out very good, I can tell its not a lager, but no one else could.

 

[FarmerTed]

So, you guys know Jamil pretty well, huh? I do and you're wrong. For one thing, he hasn't entered a homebrew comp in years.

He's not a homebrewer anymore.

You don't need to know the guy to know what his motivations are. He has said on the BN that when he was formulating his competition recipes, he would dump entire batches if he didn't think they would be winners. He didn't say the batches were bad, just not perfect for competition. To me, that's a guy who is/was motivated to brew beers for competition, not a guy who wants to find out what a dopplebock brewed with SF lager yeast would taste like.

 

[fergy89406]

Denny... if you know Jamil so well... you might want to talk to him. I've chatted with him many times on yeast.... he's my go to guy whenever I have questions about yeast. He even agrees with me that clean yeasts are not really "clean", just "cleaner" than most.

And I really don't see why my one year of brewing is a detraction on my skills? In that year, I've brewed over 25 batches of good to great beer. Out of the 25 batches, 23 were all-grain. I've read tons of books, source materials, procedures, etc. I've tried and experimented many techniques. I get that I'm a newbie to a lot of you..... just for the fact that you've been brewing longer than me. But that's a little elitist, isn't it? Yeah.. you have more "experience"... does that mean that I don't know a damn thing?? I think not.

 

[Denny]

No, it doesn't mean you don't know a damn thing. It also means you don't know everything. When I was 20 I thought my parents were idiots. When I was 40, I was amazed at how much smarter they'd become.

 

[pohldogg]

Not to go all the way back to page 2, but maybe you'd get more maibock like with something other than pale ale malt. Maybe something a bit more dare I say "traditional" like a german pils. For all the parameters you laid out I'd figure you'd have taken the grain used into the maltiness desired aspect. Unless your palate gets continental pilsner flavors from regular 2 row.

 

[fergy89406]

Pohldogg... I actually did consider that when I made my malt bill. But truthfully... the maltiness/flavor between an American 2-Row and a Continental Pilsner malt really isn't that far off to begin with... especially when mashing at the lower end that I did. About the only thing you'd really change in the end product is color... and even then it'd be miniscule.

Denny.... I do know I don't know everything. And truthfully no one does. Brewing, as much as it is an art AND a science..... no one's going to get to the point that they know everything there is to know... because everything changes in the brewing world from one minute to the next. Some ideals will be lost, only to be rediscovered (such as reiteration/double mashing). Some aspects of brewing could never be pondered until actually demonstrated (i.e. no sparge brewing or BIAB brewing).

But I am very sure in the knowledge that I've collected in the paltry year that I've been brewing. I didn't fall haphazardly into this hobby/obsession. I researched it thoroughly before I purchased my first piece of equipment. And I continue to read. And learn. And relearn.

My goal, at the end of the day, is not different from yours. That goal is to make great beer. With this experiment, I wanted to do what (as far as I could tell) no one tried. Not a pseudo-lager. Not in any sense. I was never trying to create a pseudo-lager..... more so an ale that could, theoretically, be as close to its lager counterpart without getting into that area of brewing.... i.e. colder fermentation, cold storage, etc. etc. An ale, brewed at normal ale temps, that can be as close as it possibly can to its lager counterpart.