Fermenting a wine with Belgian yeast

[Weizenstein]

So, I've got 150lbs of Chambourcin cold soaking right now divided into two 75lb batches. One is getting Lalvin D254, the other was going to get 71B, but the starter didn't take off. So now I'm thinking... I have a smack pack of Wyeast Farmhouse in the fridge that could be pretty awesome in a wine lending Fruity/peppery/earthy flavors? Or maybe pick up some French or Belgian Saison.

Does anyone do this? Is there any "chemical" reason that this could create horrible off flavors? If anyone can point me towards some good information on this that'd be awesome. If I go through with it I'll post back with some preliminary results.

cheers,
Jon

 

[Weizenstein]

Well, I went ahead and pitched Farmhouse on 20% of the grapes in a separate fermenter. Smells good so far

 

[jamesharder]

Keep us updated, i'm super interested in how this works out. The brewing network did a show a while ago where they talked about using wine yeast in beer. It would be neat to see how it goes the other way around.

 

[Ezekielsays]

I'm also interested-something similar has been on my hope to do list for a while.

 

[WilliamSlayer]

I have HEARD that because the yeast is not interacting with barley (its normal environment) that the phenols and esters that come out in beer are very muted or non-existent in other ferments. It's just second hand info, so i'd also love to hear your results!

 

[sashurlow]

I recently experimented with belgium yeast and cider. With identical sweet cider there is a very noticable difference between the Belgium yeast and English dry cider (which is usually called a "wine yeast"). Based on what I'm tasting, it doesn't support the barley theory very well. Woodchuck made a Belgium cider once (still?) and it tasted very unique. Depending on how many apples I get this fall, I might have to try another gallon of Belgium yeast with good apples (my first batch was mostly Mac and not good). Granted, I did not add sugar and kept it a cider instead of wine.

 

[Weizenstein]

Update:

I've done cider and grape ferments with belgian yeast now, and I have a few observations, unfortunately I blended the belgian portion of my wine with the traditionally fermented stuff so I won't be able to taste it seperately as it ages. Next time. But notes from tasting before blending:

- Cider with French saison yeast definitely picks up phenolics/peppery character, not as much as in a beer, but definitely present.
- Red wine has a strong flavor and it can be difficult to seperate the yeast phenols from those present in the grapes themselves.
- Fruit, I definitely got some banana esters in the wine with belgian yeast, I could spell them during fermentation, though they aren't that present in the taste, more of a general fruitiness.
- The belgian yeast wine appeared to have good body and tasted smoother than the wine yeast ferments at pressing, before bulk aging. I think it could be a good yeast to use for nouveau wines.
- I started making a "second wine" with the belgian yeast cake/skins, but it got moldy :-( So sad.

I used Wyeast Farmhouse.

- Thoughts going forward:
- get an inexpensive wine kit, divide it into multiple fermenters and pitch different yeasts, taste results side by side for better calibration.
- Catawba/Niagra/Concord juice wine with belgian yeast?
- Kolsch Yeast in a white? That could be really good.

Cheers

 

[DoctorCAD]

Dont beer yeasts die from alcohol poisoning at a much lower ABV than wine yeasts?

 

[WilliamSlayer]

Weizen, thanks for the update! Its always good to get firsthand info about experiments like this. Sharing the info is a great way of giving back to this community of brewers!

Leads to another question that is related.

Did your beer yeasts ferment the ciders and grapes to dryness? Or, did it leave some residual sugars?

Also, the Kolsch yeast idea sounds intriguing to me. I am a Kolsch fan, and a German white wine fan!

 

[Weizenstein]

Doc - Different beer yeasts have different alcohol tolerances, but most will go up to 12-14% if given oxygen and nutrients. If you can ferment a quad with it you can make wine with it.
My wine's alcohol level should be around 12-13%

Will - No problem, collaboration is what the beer community is all about.

Both the cider and wine fermented to dryness. There aren't any complex sugars in Cider, and not many in wine, so this wasn't a surprise to me. What was surprising was the body of the resulting cider, I think the saison yeast produces a good amount of glycerin/glycerol along with the peppery characteristics, it's certainly worth exploring some more.

I think the Kolsch-wine or cider idea could be a winner, that "spritzy" ester character wyeast Kolsch gives off could add something to an otherwise lackluster neutral wine. In a german white it would be interesting to see how it interacts with the Gewurtztraminer or Reisling aromatics.

There's a whole world of experimentation to do out there, and a lot of "wine guys" are too intimidated to try it. I asked a young local pro winemaker about using belgian yeast and he was adamant that it would invite a brett infection, because belgian ales have brett in them. Most wine guys don't know jack about beer. And a lot of them don't know much about science either, hence the whole "biodynamic" movement. Not to knock all wine people, I just mean to say that Brewing encourages a much more experimental mindset than winemaking.

 

[WilliamSlayer]

I'll make this a project to do soon. Just about ready to bottle a Gewurtztraminer in a few weeks. I'll create some more with Kolsch yeast, and get some comparisons done.

 

[Chops1867]

Posting to hopefully resurrect this thread. I have a few pounds of tart cherries that I will be fermenting this winter. I have been considering using Wyeast 1388 rather than a wine yeast.
I have been very encouraged by Loveofrose's BOMM (One Month Mead) using 1388. I also have 5 lbs fresh local honey I will be fermenting with the 1388.
Here's the thread for Bray's One Month Mead (BOMM): https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f30/brays-one-month-mead-429241/