Fermenter - spray instead of soak??

[tdp]

Sorry if this has been asked before...

To sanitize my fermenter, I typically fill it to the rim with sanitizing solution (I use iodophor fwiw).

Anyway, I was wondering if it wouldn’t be just as effective (as well and cheaper and easier to handle) to use just fill it enough to cover/fill the faucet at bottom and then use a spray bottle filled with sanitizer to cover the entire remaining interior surface with sanitizer instead?

I use a SS brew bucket - though I doubt that matters much.

Curious if anyone else uses a technique like this??

Thanks

 

[Robert65]

That should work. Wet time counts as part of the needed contact time, and items don't need to be immersed the whole time. Here's a document I found reporting an interview with the inventor of BTF Iodophor regarding effective use of the product.

(Link deleted)

This reference was provided by a rep for National Chemical, the manufacturer, in response to similar questions on a lengthy thread on another forum a while back.


EDIT sorry, the link I had doesn't seem to work. Anyway, the upshot is that the inventor said that it's fine to swish a gallon or so around and drain, as 60 contact times all that is required. The product was originally developed as a 3rd sink sanitizer for bars, where dipping and draining would be the procedure (BTF = bar tender's friend.)

 

[ehk089]

I use star San (and would recommend you switch too) and I just wet a microfiber rag w starsan and wipe the whole thing down. Would be a total waste to fill it completely.

 

[deadwolfbones]

I use a spray bottle of Star San after washing with homemade PBW and rinsing thoroughly. No infections yet!

 

[tdp]

Many thanks to all

 

[IslandLizard]

I use star San (and would recommend you switch too) and I just wet a microfiber rag w starsan and wipe the whole thing down. Would be a total waste to fill it completely.

That's my method too, using small washcloths for mopping it around. It tends to create a dense foam, which clings well and should perform its designed duty.
I keep the "rags" in a half size bucket with 2.5-3 gallons of Starsan because I feel many parts may benefit from (longer) soaks, e.g., hoses, jars, lids, flasks, spoons, racking cane, oxygen wand, etc.

That bucket lasts for weeks, and ends up as keg purging liquid later on, after a simple filtering through as sieve lined with a paper towel. You don't want small debris and pieces of string and fiber in there, they'll end up in your poppets...

Starsan for the win!

 

[tdp]

Clearly a separate topic but, over time I’ve found that star San was very tough on my skin even when correctly diluted, and I made a switch with iodophor at that time - could be that I’m a little more sensitive than other folks - who knows...

Anyway, I also had experience of star san leaking on a metal shelf I stored it on and corroding the substrate below... I’m trained in handling chemicals so was surprised to find myself in this situation...

All things considered, I kinda prefer the iodine/toxin option to the acid/corrosion option from a pure safety perspective (am frankly a little concerned about how dangerous/corrosive undiluted star san is at this point).

I expect I’m in the minority but would be great to hear perspectives from fellow brewers on why they disagree (or agree). At the end of the day, personally I expect we are all looking for a safe, effective option for minimizing the chance of an infected batch of beer...

Thanks for the input as always.

 

[day_trippr]

Star San is an acid-based sanitizer. Really shouldn't be any surprise if it eats stuff.

I'm apparently rather immune to it - I've often immersed an arm up to the elbow retrieving O-rings dropped in a 5 gallon reservoir of Star San/distilled water I keep on hand and after drying off never felt...anything...

Cheers!

 

[Qhrumphf]

Iodophor is more easily directly titratable for effectiveness than Star-San. The pH check many folks do isn't directly measuring dodecylbenzenesulfonic acid. But you can directly titrate for iodine. (Or at least kits to titrate for iodine are easy to come by)

There's also the theoretical concept that Iodophor is a more broad-spectrum killer than Star-San (has to do that dodecylbenzenesulfonic acid, the active ingredient in Star-San works ionically, and is less effective against yeasts, including wild yeast). This is based off food safety studies, not brewing.

Of course, experimental data actually seems to suggest otherwise. I don't recall the Star-San research (it's on MTF somewhere) showing it's indeed effective, while there's an MBAA presentation (done by the lab at Bell's) showing Iodophor largely ineffective at no-rinse 25ppm levels, but I have questions about the methodology on that as well.

 

[brewbama]

I use Iodophor. At 1/2 oz in 5 gal it costs about 30 cents so I just make a whole batch as needed.

 

[Robert65]

Iodophor is more easily directly titratable for effectiveness than Star-San. The pH check many folks do isn't directly measuring dodecylbenzenesulfonic acid. But you can directly titrate for iodine.

There's also the theoretical concept that Iodophor is a more broad-spectrum killer than Star-San (has to do that dodecylbenzenesulfonic acid, the active ingredient in Star-San works ionically, and is less effective against yeasts, including wild yeast). This is based off food safety studies, not brewing.

Of course, experimental data actually seems to suggest otherwise. I don't recall the Star-San research (it's on MTF somewhere) showing it's indeed effective, while there's an MBAA presentation (done by the lab at Bell's) showing Iodophor largely ineffective at no-rinse 25ppm levels, but I have questions about the methodology on that as well.

The MBAA podcast is something that never should have got past tech editors, same with the presentation it was based on. There was a lengthy discussion on another forum when that came out, with extensive participation by actual scientists. The "study" done at Bell's had numerous fundamental flaws in conception, design, and methodology that wouldn't be made at a middle school science fair. It was 100% invalid. All the actual evidence confirms that the only thing potentially more effective than iodophor is ethanol. But that is almost always ineffective, because getting the right balance between a concentration high enough to work but dilute enough not to evaporate before the required contact time is up is very problematic. Acid anionic sanitizers don't pretend to be able to kill anything but most (not all) bacteria. The manufacturers assume that fungi are large enough to have been removed by simple cleaning (huge assumption.) This does not account for the smallest objects of concern, spores, which acid sanitizers will not destroy.

 

[Qhrumphf]

The MBAA podcast is something that never should have got past tech editors, same with the presentation it was based on. There was a lengthy discussion on another forum when that came out, with extensive participation by actual scientists. The "study" done at Bell's had numerous fundamental flaws in conception, design, and methodology that wouldn't be made at a middle school science fair. It was 100% invalid. All the actual evidence confirms that the only thing potentially more effective than iodophor is ethanol. But that is almost always ineffective, because getting the right balance between a concentration high enough to work but dilute enough not to evaporate before the required contact time is up is very problematic. Acid anionic sanitizers don't pretend to be able to kill anything but most (not all) bacteria. The manufacturers assume that fungi are large enough to have been removed by simple cleaning (huge assumption.) This does not account for the smallest objects of concern, spores, which acid sanitizers will not destroy.

Yeah, as soon as I saw 9:1 sanitizer to straight yeast slurry I thought "those conditions do not represent reality". I recall the experiments with Star-San being more rigorous but the details escape me.

I am pro- a trifecta of Iodophor, 70% isopropyl, and peracetic acid, for different applications (parts soak, spray bottle, fermenter SIP respectively). But the last is a bit too hazardous for home use.

 

[Robert65]

I am pro- a trifecta of Iodophor, 70% isopropyl, and peracetic acid, for different applications (parts soak, spray bottle, fermenter SIP respectively). But the last is a bit too hazardous for home use.

There's a great point. Some of this comes down to not what works, but what can we make work as homebrewers. Many effective things are just too dangerous. And many, like ethanol, require far too much constant verification. You can't expect the concentration of a lot of chemicals, not just ethanol, to stay constant week to week or even hour to hour in your home setting. Star San, it was mentioned above, isn't as easy as we'd like to think to test for effectiveness. But iodophor is quite stable in concentrate, cheap enough to make up as needed and discard when spent, and offers not only a visual indicator, but iodine test strips are readily available and cheap. It's the best bet. That said, I do keep a spray bottle of Star San, because I can't think of a better option for that application for homebrewers.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Fwiw, iodophor is my go-to for home applications. Two downsides- staining, and a *much* shorter shelf life than Star-San (at respective usage strengths)

Star-San has one absolutely wonderful property- the foaming makes it excellent for leak checks for anything under pressure.

 

[Robert65]

Fwiw, iodophor is my go-to for home applications. Two downsides- staining, and a *much* shorter shelf life than Star-San (at respective usage strengths)

Star-San has one absolutely wonderful property- the foaming makes it excellent for leak checks for anything under pressure.

Foaming can make it a PITA in some situations as a sanitizer. But yeah, it is just the thing for leak checks! I think the upfront cost of iodophor makes up for the reduced shelf life. I've never actually run the numbers. But MoreBeer has iodophor at $59.99 a gallon, just enough to get free shipping. I'm a sucker for free shipping.

 

[brewbama]

Foaming can make it a PITA in some situations as a sanitizer. But yeah, it is just the thing for leak checks! I think the upfront cost of iodophor makes up for the reduced shelf life. I've never actually run the numbers. But MoreBeer has iodophor at $59.99 a gallon, just enough to get free shipping. I'm a sucker for free shipping.

~ 23 cents @ .5 oz in 5 gal

 

[Robert65]

~ 23 cents @ .5 oz in 5 gal

I can dump that after using it for a day, it's within the rounding of my daily tip at the diner at lunch. Maybe I'm financially irresponsible, maybe I'm pragmatic. [emoji6]

 

[RPh_Guy]

ethanol [...] is almost always ineffective, because getting the right balance between a concentration high enough to work but dilute enough not to evaporate before the required contact time is up is very problematic.

What's the necessary contact time for 70% ethanol?
For some reason I thought it was like 3 seconds.

A recent study by a scientist over at Milk the Funk showed Star San does kill yeast: 100 cells/mL. (Still unpublished last I checked)

 

[sicktght311]

Chiming in here as welll.............i just use my starsan spray bottle and spray all surfaces of the inside of my brewbucket and inside the spigot/racking arm 2-3 times during my brew day, then just dump out whatever settled tot he bottom before i fill and i havent had a problem. Been doing this for about 6 months now. Way quicker and easier than filling entirely with foamy starsan and water and then dumping

 

[Qhrumphf]

A recent study by a scientist over at Milk the Funk showed Star San does kill yeast: 100 cells/mL. (Still unpublished last I checked)

That was the study I was referring to (it was probably you who clued me onto it in the first place...).

 

[RPh_Guy]

That was the study I was referring to (it was probably you who clued me onto it in the first place...).

Nah, this is different.

 

[Soulshine2]

Sorry if this has been asked before...

To sanitize my fermenter, I typically fill it to the rim with sanitizing solution (I use iodophor fwiw).

Anyway, I was wondering if it wouldn’t be just as effective (as well and cheaper and easier to handle) to use just fill it enough to cover/fill the faucet at bottom and then use a spray bottle filled with sanitizer to cover the entire remaining interior surface with sanitizer instead?

I use a SS brew bucket - though I doubt that matters much.

Curious if anyone else uses a technique like this??

Thanks

transfer yeast slurry to sterile jar
take carboy outside and spray inside with garden hose on jet
dump
repeat
use carboy brush to loosen anything stuck to inside
dump and repeat until clean
spray star san inside and roll it around, shake , etc
dump
drain, cap with clean sanitized solid bung.

 

[kh54s10]

I soak my small parts in a pot with Starsan. I spray the fermenter and anything that won't fit in the pot. I have had one infected bottle of beer in 8 years.

Don't fear the foam.

I have never had any skin reaction at all from Starsan.

 

[nealm]

Been using the spray technique for years without an infection, so. Works for me.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

Same here... I have sprayed for several years without a single problem.
Waaay overkill to soak IMO

 

[BrewInspector]

Spray only for me.
It's not like soaking allows metal, glass or plastic to "absorb" the solution.

Contact is contact either way as long as you actually get the entire surface wet it will do it's job.

 

[Spartan1979]

I just put about a half gallon in the fermenter and shake it.

 

[Robert65]

I don't put anything in my 10 gallon ball lock keg and shake it. I fill it up, and then use a shaker siphon to drain it down the floor drain. Wasteful? Well, still cheaper than getting laid up with a back injury.

 

[IslandLizard]

I don't put anything in my 10 gallon ball lock keg and shake it. I fill it up, and then use a shaker siphon to drain it down the floor drain. Wasteful? Well, still cheaper than getting laid up with a back injury.

One or 2 quarts of Iodophor, Starsan, or other no-rinse sanitizer, is plenty for a sanitizing session. Plus it can be reclaimed for reuse.

Shaking or rolling/inverting a 10 gallon keg with 1/2 gallon of liquid should not cause back injuries. Lifting, carrying or handling a full one surely can.

 

[Vale71]

Shaking or rolling/inverting a 10 gallon keg with 1/2 gallon of liquid should not cause back injuries.

It might if you're in your fifties (getting there soon myself)...

 

[day_trippr]

If one can't easily handle a 10 gallon keg with two quarts of liquid (probably 20 pounds total), home brewing is probably not the right endeavor.

I'm 68...

Cheers!

 

[Robert65]

If one can't easily handle a 10 gallon keg with two quarts of liquid (probably 20 pounds total), home brewing is probably not the right endeavor.

I'm 68...

Cheers!

I'm comfortably in my fifties. I have no problem hauling around my full 10 gallon corny. Even downstairs from the kitchen to the ferm chamber. But I was in the long time habit of filling and dumping 5 gallon kegs into my utility sink to clean and sanitize. Can't manage that with a 10. See, my thinking was calcified by age. This here thread has shaken my brain loose. Cheers.

 

[day_trippr]

A full 10g keg would weigh somewhere around two sacks of grain, a different animal entirely vs a rinse scenario.
I'll wrestle grain bags because I have to, but a 100 pound keg? Fahgetaboutit!

Cheers!