Fermentation schedule for Roeselare blend

[Ayerate]

For my first sour beer I'm attempting a Flanders red using Wyeast Roeselare blend. Wyeast says it can take up to 18 months to fully develop the desired flavours from this culture. I've never aged a sour before, so I'm wondering how long I should leave it in primary before racking.

I know with regular beer it's recommended to move it to secondary if you're going to keep it in a fermenter for longer than a month, but does this also apply here? It's fermenting in a bucket right now, so I'm sure I'll want to move it at some point to avoid oxidation, I'm just not really sure when that should be.

 

[AMessenger]

I don't think it is all that critical when you transfer. If you transferred early, after a month maybe, you'd end up taking a lot of microbes with you and it would continue to mature. Leaving it on the cake longer seems like it works fine too. Probably wouldn't make that much difference either way.

One thing a lot of people report with that blend, and I found the same thing, is that the beers become more sour and complex after repeated use of the cake. My first batch using Roeselare was pretty mild even after a few years of aging but the second, third, and fourth beers were very flavorful.

Getting the current beer off the cake to start aging the next one on it seems like the real driver for doing a transfer to secondary.

 

[MapleGroveAleworks]

Piggy backing on this without making a new thread as I'm in the same boat. Is the general consensus to begin fermentation with the Roselare blend or ferment first with a normal yeast, and then rack to secondary and then add the roselare? The NHC 2014 gold medal beer did the latter so I'm trying to figure out what to do for my first sour I'm starting next week.

 

[AMessenger]

Under the rational that the more food the Roeselare has available the more impact it will have on the flavor I would pitch it directly and let it handle primary duties. It will take the beer down near 1.000 with no issues. Even so, it may end up a bit bland. You can always bend in a second sour beer (like one soured in primary with lacto) to give the first one a bit more complexity.

Doing a separate primary could allow you to add lacto to the mix and assure yourself a baseline level of sourness to begin with but you'd run the risk of over attenuating and leaving too little for the Roeselare to have much impact.

 

[cactusgarrett]

Is the general consensus to begin fermentation with the Roselare blend or ferment first with a normal yeast, and then rack to secondary and then add the roselare?

I've done it both ways with the Roeselare and have found pitching everything up front gives a more sour final product. Admittedly, I dig 'em pretty acidic and sour. Blending is still a necessary component, though. I also add maltodex. well after primary fermentation ends to give the bugs more of that extra somethin' somethin' to work on over the months.

 

[MapleGroveAleworks]

I've done it both ways with the Roeselare and have found pitching everything up front gives a more sour final product. Admittedly, I dig 'em pretty acidic and sour. Blending is still a necessary component, though. I also add maltodex. well after primary fermentation ends to give the bugs more of that extra somethin' somethin' to work on over the months.

Thanks, being new to this I decided to brew the 2014 NHC gold medal Flanders Red.

http://www.alternativecommutepueblo.com/2010/01/2014-nhc-category-17-sour-ale.html

So pitching the Roselare right up front instead of the 1056 will be OK? Do I need to pitch any Roselare afterwards because I'm assuming I need to pull off the yeast cake at some point right for long term aging? I'm very new to sour brewing sorry.

 

[Ayerate]

Thanks a lot! This is all very helpful information. And yeah, I didn't mix anything else in or make a starter, I just ordered a fresh pack of Roeselare and pitched it directly. I wanted to get an idea of how it performs on its own before I worry about mixing in other cultures.

Having done a bit more digging, I guess the general consensus is that autolysis isn't a concern when dealing with mixed cultures? I'll definitely consider making another batch in a month or two to drop on the yeast cake after I move it over to a carboy.

Also, our apartment's pretty cool right now (low-mid 60's), which while perfect for regular ales, I imagine might be slowing down the bacterial growth. I bought a heating belt to try and warm it up a bit but it turns out it was defective. Is this even something I should bother with?

 

[Ayerate]

So pitching the Roselare right up front instead of the 1056 will be OK? Do I need to pitch any Roselare afterwards because I'm assuming I need to pull off the yeast cake at some point right for long term aging? I'm very new to sour brewing sorry.

I think you should be fine with just the Roeselare. Mine went through the initial fermentation in around the same amount of time as any non-sour with just the Roeselare. Adding another strain of Sacch is probably overkill.

 

[Rhaop]

I’ve been kicking around the idea of brewing a sour with just the roselare blend, I remember on Brew strong Jamil saying along the same lines as AMessenger, pitch the blend directly and reuse the cake multiple times for best results

 

[cactusgarrett]

I'm suspecting that that NHC medal winner is getting a lot of flavor from the cherries since the blend is being pitched after primary fermentation is done. My experience shows I don't get as much of the sour/funk when done consecutive (as opposed to concurrently).

So pitching the Roselare right up front instead of the 1056 will be OK?

You'll be okay with just the blend, as WY3763 (along with brett, lacto, and pedio) contains Belgian ale and sherry strains of sacc. I, however, pitch the 1056 along with the Roeselare. It's just my procedure, and it still comes out pretty tart. You also shouldn't need to pitch anything after pulling off the cake, as what you need in the blend should be in solution, not in the cake.

I didn't mix anything else in or make a starter,

A lot of blend manufacturers actually prefer you don't make a starter, as that could throw off the ratio of the various microbes in the blend.

autolysis isn't a concern when dealing with mixed cultures?

For the most part, no. Given enough time (1+ year) brett is efficient at cleaning up trub and yeast and all the gunk which is associated with autolysis. The main driver behind racking off a primary cake prior to long-term aging is related to needing the actual primary vessel (carboy) or needing to re-use the cake for another beer.

our apartment's pretty cool right now (low-mid 60's)

In my opinion, mid-60's should be the lowest you go for long-term aging, provided your took care during primary fermentation. WYeast's site claims the blend works best 65°-85°F.

reuse the cake multiple times for best results

This is viable, and in my opinion gets you more sour/acidic the more you reuse. However, bear in mind that with each subsequent use you're throwing off the ratio of the microbes. Therefore, batch #3 won't be the same as batch #7, for example.

 

[MapleGroveAleworks]

You'll be okay with just the blend, as WY3763 (along with brett, lacto, and pedio) contains Belgian ale and sherry strains of sacc. I, however, pitch the 1056 along with the Roeselare. It's just my procedure, and it still comes out pretty tart. You also shouldn't need to pitch anything after pulling off the cake, as what you need in the blend should be in solution, not in the cake.

Thanks a lot for your help. Last question. Do you need to worry about pitch rate with sours? I'm planning on about 1.065 so I'm not sure if I need to build up a yeast count like you would for a normal ale/lager. Thanks again.

 

[cactusgarrett]

Thanks a lot for your help. Last question. Do you need to worry about pitch rate with sours? I'm planning on about 1.065 so I'm not sure if I need to build up a yeast count like you would for a normal ale/lager. Thanks again.

As with all things, it depends:

"Worry" is a relative term, as there really isn't a right and wrong when it comes to that with blends; it's more of a Result A versus Result B thing. Doing a starter with the blend, for example, will give you a different result than simply pitching the pack. The time when it does come into play, in my opinion (as it's touched upon in the SBB below), is when you're wort gets way too big for a "normal" amout of sacc to handle. In those cases, the sacc gets stressed and you'll get different flavors than if you were to have a healthy pitch.

Conversely, if you're doing a sour and piecing the microbes together (for example, 1) sour with lacto 2) ferment with sacc 3) age with brett), then a starter with any one competent would also give a different result than you'd get without. The main thing is experimentation, repetition, and keeping good notes. YOU may like what you get out of your Flanders Red if you DO use a starter as opposed to not.

Sour Beer Blog has a good review on the subject as it relates to Flanders Red. About 1/2 way down, you'll see the "Yeast, Bacteria, and Fermentation" section. Milk The Funk also has some good info.

 

[Rhaop]

This is viable, and in my opinion gets you more sour/acidic the more you reuse. However, bear in mind that with each subsequent use you're throwing off the ratio of the microbes. Therefore, batch #3 won't be the same as batch #7, for example.[/QUOTE]




Good point, I’m thinking this is the reason for a solera?

I had the idea to rebrew and blend to have an annual sour beer. A year seems like a long time to repitch a cake though

 

[Azura]

No need to use a supplemental clean ale yeast before or with Roeselare. Pitching something like 1056 quickly removes most of the easy sugars lacto can convert into acid. Now you have to wait a long time for pedio to make acid from the more complex sugars that sacc couldn't consume.

This works well: pitch Roeselare straight from the package. One month later, add some supplemental brett from the dregs of robust professional wild ales. Keep in primary for 5-7 months then bottle. The flavor and aroma will evolve in the bottle then stabilize after several months. This method should produce a pH of less than 3.6.

If you want it to be super sour, pitch lacto first and let it work for 2 days then pitch Roeselare, then dregs.

 

[Ayerate]

... One month later, add some supplemental brett from the dregs of robust professional wild ales...

Does Roeselare not already have Brett in it? And if the goal was just to get a LOT of Brett in there, wouldn't you be better off pitching an actual culture of it?

 

[Azura]

Does Roeselare not already have Brett in it? And if the goal was just to get a LOT of Brett in there, wouldn't you be better off pitching an actual culture of it?

Yes, it has two kinds of brett. No, you wouldn't necessarily be better off pitching a pure culture. Would you rather pay $13 for more of the same Wyeast brett found in Roeselare or would you prefer to buy a 750ml bottle of Drie Fonteinen for $30, drink it and pitch the dregs that will literally take Roselare to the next level of bretty funk? DF has strains of brett that impart robust flavors and aromas that Roeselare alone can't touch. All it takes is one bottle of patiently crashed dregs, then a small wake up starter for the dregs.

 

[MapleGroveAleworks]

Yes, it has two kinds of brett. No, you wouldn't necessarily be better off pitching a pure culture. Would you rather pay $13 for more of the same Wyeast brett found in Roeselare or would you prefer to buy a 750ml bottle of Drie Fonteinen for $30, drink it and pitch the dregs that will literally take Roselare to the next level of bretty funk? DF has strains of brett that impart robust flavors and aromas that Roeselare alone can't touch. All it takes is one bottle of patiently crashed dregs, then a small wake up starter for the dregs.

Thanks for you input. Question, is Drie Fonteinen readily available in the USA? I'd like to follow your schedule described with my first Flanders I brewed last night.

 

[Ayerate]

It's not available in Canada, so it's not an option for me even if I did want to try it

 

[Azura]

Thanks for you input. Question, is Drie Fonteinen readily available in the USA? I'd like to follow your schedule described with my first Flanders I brewed last night.

Available yes. Readily available in all markets. Not really. It can be found in major fancy beer drinking cities. Lindeman's Cuvee Rene has some similar to DF rustic brett notes. It's much less spendy and easier to find across the country. Jolly Pumpkin is another bottle of dregs worth using and easier to find than DF in the USA.

Cuvee Rene and Jolly Pumpkin La Roja dregs mixed with Roeselare will produce more impressive results much quicker than Roeselare by itself. It may be a little too funky at 7 months, but certainly drinkable and enjoyable. 14 months is prime. 24 months is fading away.

 

[Azura]

The thing about Roeselare is most people use for the first or third time and expect it to replicate the sourest, funkiest beer they ever bought. It's not happening even if you sit on if for 24 months! Proper Flanders Sour Ale is moderately sour and light funk. Roeselare can do that alone in 9-12 months. A proper Flanders is not extreme enough for some people.

Enhancing Roeselare with a pure lacto pitch first will increase the sourness. Increasing the diversity of the funk with dregs from a real Belgian Lambic or an American Wild ale works well, plus you get to drink it. You can bypass the fancy dregs for pure pitches of brett strains that aren't included in Roeselare. So why even use Roeselare? Because it has pediococcus which makes the best sour flavors, plus acid tolerant sacc and two standard bretts for $8.

 

[Azura]

What makes the dregs of a real Belgian Lambic such as the very difficult to acquire in the USA Cantillon so special? They are spontaneously fermented beers made with whatever microbes inoculate the wort exposed to nature. They also taste really good most of the time. Very sour and funky usually. It depends on the year. Some years are less flattering with strong notes of horse poop and baby puke. You can't buy a pack of yeast and bacteria that has more than 30% of the microbes found in a real Lambic. That's why using real Lambic dregs is worth trying.

In the USA, Jolly Pumpkin uses commonly available funky cultures plus variable environmental wild yeast. Their dregs reliably produce good things for homebrewed wild ales. There are many other USA dregs worth pitching such as Crooked Stave, Wicked Weed, Jester King and more.

Omega lacto plus "Bit of Funk" or "Bring the Funk" makes a really good sour funky beer. No dregs required. I miss the pediococcus in that combo tho.