Fermentation not going as planned!

[MTBfreak03]

Hey all,

First off, this is my first post.. but I have been reading the forums non-stop for quite some time now in preparation for learning how to brew and during my last 2 batches =). Love the site and the great advice!

My second batch is currently giving me problems and so I wanted to get a little advice from all the experts out there! My batch seems to be stuck/fermenting extremely slowly and I am not sure what to do. I have read some posts on repitching yeast, agitating the yeast and.. just leaving it alone! Heres my situation:

I am brewing a Belgian Strong Ale:
Wyeast #3724 Belgian Saison Ale
Starting Gravity: 1.073
+8 days Gravity: 1.050
+11 days Gravity: 1.047
+13 days Gravity: 1.046

Final Gravity SHOULD be: 1.015-1.017

Now I know bubbles and kraeusen are bad indicators of fermentation, but I am getting a bubble roughly once or twice a minute still and there’s a tiny bit of white, foam like kraeusen sitting on top. I have kept my temperature consistently around 72-74 degrees.

One other big thing.. I am using a recipe from a home brewing shop.. According to it, I am supposed to let it sit 2-4 days in the primary and 2-4 days in the secondary.. Now in reading a lot of posts, I realize there’s really no reason for me to be racking it to a secondary if it’s such a short fermentation. But too late for that. I racked it over after 4 days to the secondary. There was vigorous yeast activity and a big kraeusen for the first 2 days. I racked it when most of the activity stopped. I used a smack pack initially and oxygenated with a stone.. the smack pack didn’t seem to fully expand like it did on my first batch.

So there is a good chance my yeast were weak to begin with, I didn’t pitch enough initially (no starter), or something just went wrong. The question I have is, do I just let it sit and keep moving down .001 gravity points at a time? Or can I repitch? The wort is still fairly sweet, I am just worried that the yeast could have already reached optimum population and repitching won’t do anything.. though I guess if they reached that population, my gravity would be lower?

 

[SKMO]

3724 likes it warm to hot, as in 75 - 90F.

Not sure what it is at now temp wise, but I'd rouse the yeast bed and get the whole thing into the lower 80's. If you started out at 073 with some weak yeast and not a built up starter, and it's sitting in the low 70's for temp, I would expect exactly this.

Underpitching this yeast like you did can produce these results, but it can wake up and recover.

 

[MTBfreak03]

SKMO, thanks for the reply.

Had no idea it liked it so warm! And ya.. the more I've read, the more I realize a starter is always a good idea. The guy at the shop told me I'd be fine but I will definitely make them going forward.

Do you think rousing the yeast will still work even though its in the secondary and there is a very very small yeast cake?

 

[Bensiff]

Good ol' saison yeast, never know what you're gonna get.

Here's my first piece of advise, don't brew a high gravity beer until you know how to wrangle yeast properly (starters, nutrients, oxygen, temp control). But, of course its too late for that sooo...

I will stick my neck out here and say they don't know what they are talking about if they say to leave anything in a primary for only 2-4 days. Saison are good for long time aging so its one of those types that a secondary might actually be worth it for...after a few months in primary though.

A lot of your problem may well be that your racked way too soon. A beer that big will take 5-7 days to hit your FG if you really handle your yeast well. You cut that short considerably. If you still have the yeast cake and you kept it sanitary I would be dumping that back in, if not think about other avenues.

Getting a stuck ferment going isn't easy, but you can try to repitch, but you would need to make a significant starter. You could make another batch with the same or similar yeast and top crop it into the stuck ferment and that might get it going. Or when it is at high krausen you could blend the two batches.

Better yet, you could say the hell with it and dump some Wyeast Roselare in there and wait it out...that'd be pretty cool, getting into brewing wild ales almost right out of the brewing starting gate.

 

[GuldTuborg]

Underpitching this yeast like you did can produce these results, but it can wake up and recover.

It sounds like you underpitched, have been fermenting too cold, and racked too early. All 3 probably helped produce what you have now. Your FG should be lower than that estimate, too, if you want a real saison (this yeast is capable of some pretty high attenuation). I second the rousing the yeast and increasing the temps. You'll likely see underattenuation, but it'll still be good beer, I'm sure. It just may not be as dry as you'd like.

 

[Revvy]

That's why it's not fermenting out as fast as you wanted it. You followed the bad advice of taking it off the very yeast it needs to finish fermenting that beast and left it with whatever low performing/flocculating yeast that happened to by luck of the draw get carried over.

That's really why you should NEVER brew by instruction or a calendar but brew by a hydrometer. For one thing yeast don't know how to read...So those instructions bear little resemblance to their lives.

And if you do opt for secondaries, that's why I advocate that you wait til fermentation is complete before moving it. Whether you believe in long primaries or not, you really want to let the yeast best suited to do the job finish it's job.

One thing those stupid instructions or even the silly 1-2-3 rule leave of is yeast lag time which we know, and have a sticky to illustrate, can be up to 72 hours. SO if you just move your beer based on a calendar, and had lag time, then you'll see that if you moved it on say 3 you maybe have 4 actual days of fermentation. Not a weeks worth.

SO yeah your yeast is probably tuckered out. I would pitch some more yeast. It also seems like you didn't make a starter so you were already more than likely using less than the optimal amount of yeast necessary for a big beer.

Wheter the smack pack inflated or not is irrevelant, From the horse's mouth.

From the Wyeast FAQ website:

3. Does the package need to be fully swollen before pitching?

No, The package can be pitched before activating, or at anytime during the activation process. The activation process "jump starts" the culture's metabolism, minimizing the lag phase.

You don't even really have to smack if you don't want to if you are making a starter, but you definitely don't need to wait for it to inflate.

But for any beer over 1.020 it's really a good idea to make a starter....and not rack UNTIL the beer is finished or close too it (SOme oldschool advocates beleive you should rack before fermentation is complete, but that is if it's 5-10 points away from terminal gravity, NOT 20 or 30 points away, the little yeast moved to secondary isn't sufficient to get you there.

So pitch some fresh yeast, THEN don't do anything for another 3 weeks after that. Just let it finish and clear...and learn from this. Problems like this rarely happen if you leave you beer alone in primary til fermentation is complete.

Best of luck.

 

[SKMO]

SKMO, thanks for the reply.

Had no idea it liked it so warm! And ya.. the more I've read, the more I realize a starter is always a good idea. The guy at the shop told me I'd be fine but I will definitely make them going forward.

Do you think rousing the yeast will still work even though its in the secondary and there is a very very small yeast cake?

Well... I think it's your best short term attempt, and has a really good chance of working. Don't get hung up on the "cake" you have a bajillion yeast suspended in solution that will go to work for you if make their environment favorable.

Also - Get on the yeast producers websites and study up on what yeast you are using, every time. They have great information laid out there for us to use, no reason to ask anyone here about technical specifics. You will get opinions and experiences here, but technical recommendations are all laid out for the world to see on the yeast supplier websites.

 

[Calder]

I think that is the DuPont yeast. My reference says 80 F as the low end for the yeast. I think DuPont ferment up around 90F, and they are done in 7 days.

Just too bad your LHBS gave you one of the hardest yeasts to work with.

If you think you can get your temps up there, you have 2 options: 1) Warm it up and hope you have enough yeast to do the job, or 2) Rack the beer to another fermenter (or out and back again). Leave a very small amount of beer in the fermenter. Swirl up the yeast and pour all of it into a smaller container; one gallon fermenter, or 2 liter pop bottle. Make up a liter or so of 1.040 wort (0.25 lbs extract in 2 pints), and get the yeast going in a starter and add back to the main batch. Ferment out at 80 F or above. It should be ready to add back within a day.

If you can't maintain 80 + degrees, go get a different Saison yeast that works at a lower temp, make a starter, and ferment that somewhere between 70 and 75 F. I like WLP550, really great fermented at 75F, but will work much lower, down to at least 65, but with less yeast character.

.......... AND DON'T RACK UNTIL YOU KNOW THE YEAST IS FINISHED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You read a lot on here about not using a Secondary. With this yeast needing higher temperatures, this is one time I would recommend taking the beer off the Primary once it is done. The higher temps accelerate the decay of the yeast. Certainly, if you don't bottle within 3 weeks, rack it.

 

[SKMO]

But for any beer over 1.020 it's really a good idea to make a starter....

Are you sure your fingers did not crossed here when typing ? Or is this estimated FG?

Most "rules of thumb" only suggest the need for a starter above 060 or 070 or above OG. Not going to look it up, but let's not lead people to think anything 020 OG and above needs a starter.

Me thinks you had a typological error.

 

[Calder]

Well... I think it's your best short term attempt, and has a really good chance of working. Don't get hung up on the "cake" you have a bajillion yeast suspended in solution that will go to work for you if make their environment favorable.

I don't know that he does. If it were 1056 and it had been sitting at 55F (5 degrees below it's recommended range), we would suspect a large amount of the yeast would have dropped and only a small amount would have been carried over. That small amount now has a lot of work to do and will probably get exhausted quickly; it's the perfect recipe for stuck ferment.

I don't know when 3724 drops, but I suspect once you are below it's recommended fermentation range, is goes dormant and starts to drop.

 

[Golddiggie]

Right off the Wyeast page about that strain:

This strain is notorious for a rapid and vigorous start to fermentation, only to stick around 1.035 S.G. Fermentation will finish, given time and warm temperatures. Warm fermentation temperatures at least 90°F (32°C) or the use of a secondary strain can accelerate attenuation.

As already mentioned, always read up about the yeast you're going to be using before either purchasing it, or pitching it.

I tend to give smack packs at least a few hours to swell up (fully inflate) before using them. For lower gravity worts, you can get away without smacking, or using a starter. But, smacking the pack, and letting it inflate fully will tell you how good the yeast is. It's also good to look at the date stamp on the Wyeast packet (it's the 'born on' date)... If more than a month old, I'd make at least a small starter, a day or two ahead to ensure the yeast is going to work.

As also already mentioned, you need to give the yeast time to do it's work.

At least you're learning better methods after only two brews. I would look to use a different LHBS if I was you. They gave you the advise of no starter, and the instructions with the kit said to rack after just four days. Especially with that yeast. To me, that just screams out that they either don't brew, don't brew nearly enough, or have zero experience with the kits they're selling. All bad items...

 

[Revvy]

Are you sure your fingers did not crossed here when typing ? Or is this estimated FG?

Most "rules of thumb" only suggest the need for a starter above 060 or 070 or above OG. Not going to look it up, but let's not lead people to think anything 020 OG and above needs a starter.

Me thinks you had a typological error.

Uh, no....I've posted this a number of times....I'm surprised you haven't seen it.

Rules of thumb are great is they're right...But I've found most of them aren't. Like the afore mentioned 1-2-3 rule...or counting airlock bubbles.

I stand behind the 1.020 number. The first calc that comes up in MR Malty is 1.030...since 1.020 is less than 1.030, anything above 1.020 it is recommended to make a starter.

It's really a good idea to make starters when using ANY liguid yeast, smack pack, tube, or the jar of washed at the back of your fridge, for all beers above 1.020 OG...

The biggest reason I suggest folks make a starter is if you make one you'll have peace of mind.

And you won't be starting an "is my yeast dead" thread in a couple of days. (Which then one of us will answer with...."Had you made a starter..."

Making a starter first insures that your yeast is still alive and viable before you dump it in your beer. You will be less likely to start one of those "is my yeast dead?" threads that are on here every day.

You will also ensure that you have enough yeast usually the tubes and smack packs are a lot less yeast that you really should use for healthy fermentation.

Making a starter also usually means your beer will take off sooner, because the first thing that the little buggers do in the presence of wort (whether in a flask or in a fermenter) is have an orgy to reproduce enough cells to do the job...So it won't take such a long time in the fermenter since they started doing it in the flask.

Additionally it is better for the yeast to consume and reproduce incrementally rather than just dumping them into the fermenter...The yeast will be less stressed out than if you just dump them in.

Stressed out yeast can lead to a lot of off flavors...maybe even (though rare) the dreaded autolysis....Or the curse of 1.030....getting a stuck fermentation because the yeast have bit the dust.

So making a starter proves your yeast is still healthy, allows you to grow enough yeast to do the job, cuts down on lag time, and ensures that you will not get off flavors or stuck ferementations from stressed out yeast.

Also has to do with the actual pitch rates of the smack packs and tubes, and has to do with the data that Jamil Z has on his mr malty website.

I'll quote some of it, but really you should look at the stuff there;

http://www.mrmalty.com/pitching.php

Ales & Lagers

The general consensus on pitching rates is that you want to pitch around 1 million cells of viable yeast, for every milliliter of wort, for every degree plato. A little less for an ale, a little more for a lager. George Fix states about 1.5 million for a lager and 0.75 million for an ale in his book, An Analysis of Brewing Techniques. Other literature cites a slightly higher amount. I'm going with Fix's numbers and that is what the pitching calculator uses.
The Math

If you're curious, here is the simple math to calculate the number of cells needed. For an ale, you want to pitch around 0.75 million cells of viable yeast (0.75 million for an ale, 1.5 million for a lager), for every milliliter of wort, for every degree plato.

(0.75 million) X (milliliters of wort) X (degrees Plato of the wort)

* There is about 3785 milliliters in a gallon. There are about 20,000 milliliters in 5.25 gallons.

* A degree Plato is about 1.004 of original gravity. Just divide the OG by 4 to get Plato (e.g., 1.048 is 12 degrees Plato).

So, for a 1.048 wort pitching into 5.25 gallons you need about 180 billion cells.

(750,000) X (20,000) X (12) = 180,000,000,000

As an easy to remember rough estimate, you need about 15 billion cells for each degree Plato or about 4 billion cells for each point of OG when pitching into a little over 5 gallons of wort. If you want a quick way of doing a back of the envelope estimate, that is really close to 0.75 billion cells for each point of gravity per gallon of wort. Double that to 1.5 billion for a lager.
Pitching From Tubes, Packs, or Dry Yeast

Both White Labs and Wyeast make fantastic products and you can't go wrong with either one. There are differences between their strains and each brand has pluses and minuses yet neither is better than the other across the board. Use the brand your local homebrew shop carries, if you need a way to decide.

A White Labs tube has between 70 and 120 billion cells of 100% viable yeast, depending on the yeast strain. Some cells are much larger than others and there are more or less per ml based on size. (The information on the White Labs web site stating 30 to 50 billion cells is out of date.) We can just assume there are around 100 billion very healthy yeast. You would need 2 tubes if you were pitching directly into 5.5 gallons of 1.048 wort to get the proper cell counts.

A Wyeast Activator pack (the really big ones) and the pitchable tubes have an average of 100 billion cells of 100% viable yeast. The smaller packs are around 15-18 billion cells. You would need 2 of the large packs if you were pitching directly into 5.5 gallons of 1.048 wort to get the proper cell counts. For the small packs, you'd need eleven of them!

But to make it easier he has a great pitch rate calculator http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

And according to his numbers on his calculator, really any beer above 1.020, you should be making a starter for.

Me personally when I use liquid yeast I just make a starter. I may not be as anal as some brewers and makes sure that I have the exact cellcount for whatever gravity beer I am making, but I do make one for the above reasons I mentioned, namely peace of mid, and a reduction in lag time.

Seriously, that's one way to insure you have clean tasting beer, not to stress out or underpitch your yeast.

The only reason NOT to make a starter is simple laziness....

So no, it's NOT a typo....

 

[MTBfreak03]

Thanks for all the responses! I am shocked at how incorrect the advice from the brewshop was.. I cant believe they gave me a yeast for my second brew that is 1. hard to work with but 2. needs 80+ degrees in the DEAD OF WINTER! But the number one thing I can take from all your responses, its do my own damn research!

I think I am going to warm it and rouse it and see if that does anything. But it seems the general consensus is there just simply isnt enough yeast anymore. So if rousing doesnt work, I will have to move on to adding more!

Thanks again!

 

[SKMO]

I don't know that he does. If it were 1056 and it had been sitting at 55F (5 degrees below it's recommended range), we would suspect a large amount of the yeast would have dropped and only a small amount would have been carried over. That small amount now has a lot of work to do and will probably get exhausted quickly; it's the perfect recipe for stuck ferment.

Well I will 100% fall in line with you that this might be the case. I have used a lot of 1056, just never had that problem. I think from what he described it might be pretty simple. I never meant to lay it out like "this is how it is", just relating some experience.

 

[SKMO]

Uh, no....I've posted this a number of times....I'm surprised you haven't seen it'

I stand behind the 1.020 number. The first calc that comes up in MR Malty is 1.030...since 1.020 is less than 1.030, anything above 1.020 it is recommended to make a starter.

So no, it's NOT a typo....

Well with all respect I am not seeing this math really backed up anywhere.

From the Wyeast technical information "The Activator is designed to deliver professional pitch rates (6 million cells/ ml.) when directly added to 5 gallons of wort. ( <1.060 at 70 degrees)."

Who makes a 020 wort anyway ? On purpose.

 

[Revvy]

Well with all respect I am not seeing this math really backed up anywhere.

From the Wyeast technical information "The Activator is designed to deliver professional pitch rates (6 million cells/ ml.) when directly added to 5 gallons of wort. ( <1.060 at 70 degrees)."

Who makes a 020 wort anyway ? On purpose.

What do you mean the math isn't backed up anywhere it's backed up on mr malty?????? I POSTED his math to back it up...

You quibbling with Jamil???? That's your issue, not mine. Take it up with him....And if you don't know who he is, google Jamil Z....THEN tell HIM if you still have issues with HIS math, not me.

I stand behind what I said.....

As to whether or not anyone makes 1.020 wort, that's the point....Whether you agree or not, I believe you should make a starter with ANY liquid yeast. And I think mr Malty backs it up...

*shrug*

 

[Montanaandy]

Thanks for all the responses! I am shocked at how incorrect the advice from the brewshop was.. I cant believe they gave me a yeast for my second brew that is 1. hard to work with but 2. needs 80+ degrees in the DEAD OF WINTER! But the number one thing I can take from all your responses, its do my own damn research!

I think I am going to warm it and rouse it and see if that does anything. But it seems the general consensus is there just simply isnt enough yeast anymore. So if rousing doesnt work, I will have to move on to adding more!

Thanks again!

At this point you should abandon the 3724 since you put the wort into secondary way too early and left most of the yeast behind. Just get a pack of 3711, make a starter (always preferable) and/or just toss it in. You don't have to have the crazy high temps with 3711 that you do with 3724 and the results should be good. Montanaandy

 

[CPooley4]

The math is on Revvy's side. I have my own yeast pitch calculator, very similar to Mr Malty, and with a 1.046 OG for an ale it recommends 161 billion cells. A smack pack has about 100 billion on it's own.

So you should either make a 1 liter starter (assuming no stir plate), pitch 1.6 liquid packs (waste of money), or pitch .78 dry yeast packets (1 packet would be fine and is my favorite for most beers).

Though I will say that if you have a wort of less than about 45 you should be fine getting by with 1 packet. It's not optimal and you are not putting yourself in a position to make the best beer possible, but it should still taste fine upon completion. My advice however is to do things optimally. Why put in so much hard work to make something you want to be proud of and then short change the process during maybe the most important phase?

 

[Bensiff]

What do you mean the math isn't backed up anywhere it's backed up on mr malty?????? You quibbling with Jamil???? That's your issue, not mine. Take it up with him....And if you don't know who he is, google Jamil Z....

I stand behind what I said.....

As to whether or not anyone makes 1.020 wort, that's the point....Whether you agree or not, I believe you should make a starter with ANY liquid yeast. And I think mr Malty backs it up...

*shrug*

I would say its more important to note that Jamil got his data from working with guys like Chris White....whose professional opinion holds more weight than most anyone.

 

[SKMO]

I would say its more important to note that Jamil got his data from working with guys like Chris White....whose professional opinion holds more weight than most anyone.

Exactly, I agree 100% with this. I just have not run across the data to suggest I need to make a starter for a 1.020 wort. (?)

 

[Revvy]

Exactly, I agree 100% with this. I just have not run across the data to suggest I need to make a starter for a 1.020 wort. (?)

Is 1.30 above 1.020??? How hard is it for you to grasp what I said? If Mr Malty says that you need to make a starter for a 1.030 beer....and 1.020 is less than 1.030 then what is your problem with what I had to say?

If you are making a 1.020 ordianary bitter or a small, kids or tabflebeer off the 2nd or third runnings of a partigyle which is not uncommon at all, you don't need to make a starter for this beer. On the OTHER hand if you're making a 1.030 beer, mr malty says you need to make a starter.

Therefore, it's a good idea to make a starter for any beer above 1.020. I didn't say 1.020 OR above, I said above 1.020. Here;

It's really a good idea to make starters when using ANY liguid yeast, smack pack, tube, or the jar of washed at the back of your fridge, for all beers above 1.020 OG...

Nor did I say "1.020 AND above...."

In the english most of us speak there IS a distinction.....And my sentence is grammatically correct.

But then again if you believe that a starter is important for peace of mind because it proves viabilty, then it really shoulldn't freaking matter what the heck the gravity is, does it??? If you are using liquid yeast, then you should make a starter. It's really that simple, you'll know before you pitch your yeast, or before you start an is my yeast dead thread, if that is the case or not.

Quibble Quibble quibble.....

*shakes head*

 

[CPooley4]

Exactly, I agree 100% with this. I just have not run across the data to suggest I need to make a starter for a 1.020 wort. (?)

So you are agreeing with us?

Jamil created Mr. Malty (yeast pitch calc). He also wrote a book called Yeast with Chris White. Chris White was mentioned as the professional who's opinion holds more weight than anyone that you agree 100% with. So, Jamil's calculator is a good tool by that logic, correct?

Bottom line is that the math backs up what Revvy is stating. Doesn't mean you'll make a bad beer by not making a starter, but you are not going to make the best beer you can if you decide against it as you will not have the optimal amount of yeast to do the job.

 

[Bensiff]

If I had more focus (ie less homebrew in my belly) I would say do the math folks and then I would do the math for you. Pitching rates are well known. We tend to pitch more here than across the ocean...whatever pitching rate you desire you can do a simple amount of math to see exactly when you need a starter to increase your pitching rate. Mr. Malty makes life easy by doing the math for us and uses the lower pitching levels as I recall so in reality it isn't exactly some breakthrough tool, it is just something to make life easier for lazy folks like me.

Revvy, just don't hit your head against anything with sharp angles ...and just to frustrate you I don't do starters for anything below 1.035 as a rule, but as a rule I don't brew beers under 1.040...whatever the hell that means , more homebrew

 

[Calder]

Can you guys quit hijacking this thread. It's advisable to make a starter for every batch, but you can make decent beer without it. No calculator will give you the right amount to pitch. Sometimes stressing the yeast gives better results. The calculator is just a guide!

At this point you should abandon the 3724 since you put the wort into secondary way too early and left most of the yeast behind. Just get a pack of 3711, make a starter (always preferable) and/or just toss it in. You don't have to have the crazy high temps with 3711 that you do with 3724 and the results should be good. Montanaandy

Make a starter. Just pitching a vial/smack-pak into a a wort with partially fermented wort will not do well. The yeast will not reproduce, so you need to up the cell count in a starter before adding the yeast.

 

[SKMO]

I believe you should make a starter with ANY liquid yeast. And I think mr Malty backs it up...

*shrug*

Well what you "believe" may or may not be exactly correct. Ever consider that possibility ?

 

[DakotaRules]

Well what you "believe" may or may not be exactly correct. Ever consider that possibility ?

Wow?!

 

[CPooley4]

Can you let us know then what data backs up your belief? I'm all for learning as I want to make the best beer I can. No sense in wasting my time doing things that do not lead to that goal. Revvy may not have the most tactful way of stating things, but at least he's backing up his beliefs with industry expert opinions/tools. If his belief isn't correct then our industry experts need to find new professions.