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Fermentability of carapils

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banesong

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Okay, not sure if this is the right place to ask this, but.....

I have brewed two batches of my light beer (lawnmower style), but ran into an interesting question when I went to get the ingredients.

I had dropped a 3.3lb can of pilsen LME, a 1lb bag of carapils and a 1lb bag of munich on the counter along with some cascade hops. The owner of the LHBS said "that isn't the only thing in your beer, right? you do have more fermentables than the LME, don't you?" I responded by saying I had an additional 1/2lb of carapils at home for the recipe. He laughed, and said that carapils was completely unfermentable, and that whatever software I was using was wrong. I ended up adding an additional 1lb of pilsen DME and a 1/2lb more munich (long story...) and ended up with an almost light version of Sierra Nevada. Wow, sometimes brewday cowboy-ism works. :drunk:

So..... is Carapils fermentable or not? I am trying to get to a very light (3.8%) session beer that can be my go-to during the week. Not everyone can hit the 8-9% every night of the week!

TIA
 

DannyD

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would not get any fermetables out of them without mashing with a base malt
 

dwarven_stout

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would not get any fermetables out of them without mashing with a base malt
Munich is a base malt.

That said, the common wisdom is that Cara-pils/foam/hell have very little fermentable sugar in them. I don't know if any homebrewers have explicitly tested the fermentability.
 

Jsmith82

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Just doing a little bit of google-fu, I found the following site:

Defalcos.com

It lists fermentable and non fermentable grains along with a solid description of each. Cara-pils is noted as non fermentable with the following description:

CARA-PILS/DEXTRINE (3º - 10º lovibond) - A roast of malt just under the lighter crystal malts, this grain is used as a "beer body builder" by enhancing the smooth finish in the beer and adding mouthfeel and body. This grain adds no appreciable amount of caramel flavor to the aftertaste. When a malt ceases to be "cara-pils" and becomes "light crystal" malt is a rather gray area, as both are used for similar purposes.
I also stumbled across an old HBT topic here that has a pretty good description about carapils and why it is not fermentable:

CaraPils is a barley malt made to be low in color and flavor so it does not change the profile of any beer, but is said to add body and foam stability. It is called a dextrin malt because it is said to contain dextrins, unfermentable carbohydrates.
 

nilo

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Yes, the software you used is/was wrong. That was the reason why I decided to build my own excel brewing tool so I can assign whatever "fermentability" I want per grain, in this case, 0% for carapills, dextrin powder, lactose. I'm not sure if any brewing software today let you do that.
Although the fermentability of carapills is known to be very low to none, I believe this has been passed along from brewer to brewer without a real proven test.
That may change as I may just test that, as I proposed on this post below where I brew tested the fermentability of crystal malt. If I do, I'll report back.
Anyways, given the low amount of carapills usually added to recipes and the other "factors" that affect fermentability of a wort, it is very hard to use regular recipes to make any conclusions. Right now, I use it as 0% fermentable in my tool.

crystal test link
http://beertech.blogspot.com/2011/03/crystal-malt-experiment-attenuation.html
 

DannyD

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Munich is a base malt.

That said, the common wisdom is that Cara-pils/foam/hell have very little fermentable sugar in them. I don't know if any homebrewers have explicitly tested the fermentability.
Depends on what you do with it. Mashing would be the main word.
 

nilo

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OP
banesong

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Hookay, that would be why my OG/FG always came out about 1-2% lower than estimated, without fail. I will definitely consider it unfermentable.
 

rayg

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A recent paper on fermentability:

Impact of dark specialty malts on extract composition and wort fermentation
Author(s): Coghe, S (Coghe, S); D'Hollander, W (D'Hollander, W); Verachtert, H (Verachtert, H); Delvaux, FR (Delvaux, FR)
Source: JOURNAL OF THE INSTITUTE OF BREWING Volume: 111 Issue: 1 Pages: 51-60 Published: 2005

Abstract: Dark specialty malts are important ingredients for the production of several beer styles. These malts not only impart colour, flavour and antioxidative activity to wort and beer, they also affect the course of wort fermentations and the production of flavour-active yeast metabolites. The application of considerable levels of dark malt was found to lower the attenuation, mainly as a result of lower levels of fermentable sugars and amino acids in dark wort samples. In fact, from the darkest caramel malts and from roasted malts, practically no fermentable material can be hydrolysed by pilsner malt enzymes during mashing. Compared to wort brewed with 50% pilsner malt and 50% dark caramel malt or roasted malt, wort brewed with 100% pilsner malt contained nearly twice as much fermentable sugars and amino acids. Reduced levels of yeast nutrients also lowered the fermentation rate, ranging from 1.7 degrees P/day for the reference pilsner wort of 9 EBC to 1.1 degrees P/day for the darkest wort (890 EBC units), brewed with 50% roasted malt. This additionally indicates that lower attenuation values for dark wort are partially due to the inhibitory effects of Maillard compounds on yeast metabolism. The application of dark caramel or roasted malts further led to elevated levels of the vicinal diketones diacetyl and 2,3-pentane-dione. Only large levels of roasted malt gave rise to two significant diacetyl peaks during fermentation. The level of ethyl acetate in beer was inversely related to colour, whereas the level of isoamyl acetate appeared to be affected by the use of roasted malt. With large levels of this malt type, negligible isoamyl acetate was generated during fermentation.
=================

Two papers that cited the above paper. I get a hoot out of the title
of the second one:

Population Size Drives Industrial Saccharomyces cerevisiae Alcoholic Fermentation and Is under Genetic Control
Author(s): Albertin, W (Albertin, Warren)2,3; Marullo, P (Marullo, Philippe)3,4; Aigle, M (Aigle, Michel)5; Dillmann, C (Dillmann, Christine)1; de Vienne, D (de Vienne, Dominique)1; Bely, M (Bely, Marina)3; Sicard, D (Sicard, Delphine)1

Source: APPLIED AND ENVIRONMENTAL MICROBIOLOGY Volume: 77 Issue: 8 Pages: 2772-2784 DOI: 10.1128/AEM.02547-10 Published: APR 2011


Abstract: Alcoholic fermentation (AF) conducted by Saccharomyces cerevisiae has been exploited for millennia in three important human food processes: beer and wine production and bread leavening. Most of the efforts to understand and improve AF have been made separately for each process, with strains that are supposedly well adapted. In this work, we propose a first comparison of yeast AFs in three synthetic media mimicking the dough/wort/grape must found in baking, brewing, and wine making. The fermentative behaviors of nine food-processing strains were evaluated in these media, at the cellular, populational, and biotechnological levels. A large variation in the measured traits was observed, with medium effects usually being greater than the strain effects. The results suggest that human selection targeted the ability to complete fermentation for wine strains and trehalose content for beer strains. Apart from these features, the food origin of the strains did not significantly affect AF, suggesting that an improvement program for a specific food processing industry could exploit the variability of strains used in other industries. Glucose utilization was analyzed, revealing plastic but also genetic variation in fermentation products and indicating that artificial selection could be used to modify the production of glycerol, acetate, etc. The major result was that the overall maximum CO(2) production rate (V(max)) was not related to the maximum CO(2) production rate per cell. Instead, a highly significant correlation between V(max) and the maximum population size was observed in all three media, indicating that human selection targeted the efficiency of cellular reproduction rather than metabolic efficiency. This result opens the way to new strategies for yeast improvement.


Instrumental measurement of beer taste attributes using an electronic tongue
Author(s): Rudnitskaya, A (Rudnitskaya, Alisa)1,2; Polshin, E (Polshin, Evgeny)2,3; Kirsanov, D (Kirsanov, Dmitry)2; Lammertyn, J (Lammertyn, Jeroen)3; Nicolai, B (Nicolai, Bart)3; Saison, D (Saison, Daan)4; Delvaux, FR (Delvaux, Freddy R.)4; Delvaux, F (Delvaux, Filip)4; Legin, A (Legin, Andrey)2

Source: ANALYTICA CHIMICA ACTA Volume: 646 Issue: 1-2 Pages: 111-118 DOI: 10.1016/j.aca.2009.05.008 Published: JUL 30 2009


Abstract: The present study deals with the evaluation of the electronic tongue multisensor system as an analytical tool for the rapid assessment of taste and flavour of beer. Fifty samples of Belgian and Dutch beers of different types (lager beers. ales, wheat beers, etc.), which were characterized with respect to the sensory properties, were measured using the electronic tongue (ET) based on potentiometric chemical sensors developed in Laboratory of Chemical Sensors of St. Petersburg University. The analysis of the sensory data and the calculation of the compromise average scores was made using STATIS. The beer samples were discriminated using both sensory panel and ET data based on PCA, and both data sets were compared using Canonical Correlation Analysis. The ET data were related to the sensory beer attributes using Partial Least Square regression for each attribute separately. Validation was done based on a test set comprising one-third of all samples. The ET was capable of predicting with good precision 20 sensory attributes of beer including such as bitter, sweet, sour, fruity, caramel, artificial, burnt, intensity and body.

Ray
 

emcfarden

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I recently used 1lb of Carapils in my extract IPA. As I added it to my recipe builder it increased the expected OG by .003, which made sense. However my expected FG stayed the same as it was before I added it. On brew day my OG was spot on as expected, but sure enough my FG was .003 higher than expected on the recipe builder. So I'm certainly convinced there is no contribution of fermentables when using Carapils as a steeping grain.

It may be time I create my own excel recipe builder for more accurate calculations.
 

denravonska

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Resurrecting a dead horse here, but I think it could be good for future reference.

I decided to test this with my saffron wheat beer. Here are its conditions:

  • 20L batch
  • 50% carapils
  • 50% pale ale
  • 1 pkt slightly outdated US-05
  • No rehydration

After 7 days the yeast has taken the batch from 1.058 to 1.015. I suspect it will drop a point or two on the way, but for 50% of the grain bill that sure sounds fermentable, right?
 

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