Ferment and serve in corny - sediment options?

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Bassman2003 said:
Sediment is a touchy issue as some do not care as much about it than others. My view is that I do not want any sediment if possible.
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...was thinking same thing ... because I ferment ciders getting some sediment into suspension I'm like just drink it
 
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What if available for purchase was a kit of those ... formed internally to fit onto a dip tube, sized just right to fit between the bottom of the dimple and end of a non-modified dip tube, sized in 3/8 or 1/2 inch increments. Could do trail-and-error evaluations of the amount of sediment to expect for a particular batch, or go conservative with the tallest, or consult a chart of common sediment depths in corny for typical styles. For folks on a budget or no space for multiple kegs no modifications and no tubes to replace.

Wondering what food-grade hack one could could come up that would serve the purpose? Something food-grade and not subject to alcohol degradation. Plastic bottle cap? .....
 
YES! Yeah ... there's something somewhere sitting on a shelf that would work ... some type of food industry stainless steel odd-ball part. And if it was looking like one wouldn't be confident it wouldn't wiggle off the end of the tube, could add an inch or so of food-grade plastic hose to give a better fit. I was toying with the idea of multiple pieces of food-grade hose that IDs and ODs would allow nesting one-inside-the-other and after a contraption was put together the vent for feeding liquid would be from drilling three holes around the circumference. Reminds me of jury-rigging a plug for some odd need in automotive work by hose clamping a bolt that wasn't threaded all the way into a hose. Hm....

EDIT - thought of an upside-down corny post with AEB style permanently installed poppets but that wouldn't make it between the bottom of dip and dimple - and probably wouldn't be tall enough and no way for liquid to pass
 
Cider Wraith said:
What if available for purchase was a kit of those ... formed internally to fit onto a dip tube, sized just right to fit between the bottom of the dimple and end of a non-modified dip tube, sized in 3/8 or 1/2 inch increments. Could do trail-and-error evaluations of the amount of sediment to expect for a particular batch, or go conservative with the tallest, or consult a chart of common sediment depths in corny for typical styles. For folks on a budget or no space for multiple kegs no modifications and no tubes to replace.
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Brewers shorten their liquid dip tube to achieve that. Or better, cut a 1/16 - 1/8" slit at the height they expect to be above the trub line.

When one wants to use the full length again, replace the dip tube with a full length or uncut spare.
I guess when in a pinch, one could cover the slit or lengthen the dip tube with a piece of tight fitting vinyl or silicone tubing. Or tape, etc.
 
Bassman2003 said:
Purging with the fermentation gas is the name of the game. It is free, pure CO2 so use as much as you can
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Absolutely tremendous ... and then as the C02 departs the secondary corny I wish I could cycle it back to apple trees to grow more apples ;) Well you kind folks have been tremendously helpful ... I'm looking forward to my first dual-keg all closed thingamajiggy setup getting going - I'm rolling in newly acquired kegs now and it won't be long before it's time for a new batch because strangely it gets gone rather quickly
 
Well how do you like that ... received an old Dr Pepper FIRESTONE CHALLENGER VI that had a bottom side depression rather than center dimple ... so the tube appears to be an appropriate length shorter than conventional so will try in a conventional ferm ... that much shorter might leave behind what, 8 ~ 10 oz?

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Cider Wraith said:
Well how do you like that ... received an old Dr Pepper FIRESTONE CHALLENGER VI that had a bottom side depression rather than center dimple ... so the tube appears to be an appropriate length shorter than conventional so will try in a conventional ferm ... that much shorter might leave behind what, 8 ~ 10 oz?
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It's around 4" to the gallon (~1 quart per inch) for ball lock kegs, measuring the straight side. The bottom is concave and about 1/2" deep, so only ~1/2-2/3 of it has volume. You may be able to estimate it with those numbers.

Or fill the keg with 2 quarts of water and push out as much as it allows you to, then measure the volume that's left. ;)
 
IslandLizard said:
It's around 4" to the gallon (~1 quart per inch) for ball lock kegs, measuring the straight side. The bottom is concave and about 1/2" deep, so only ~1/2-2/3 of it has volume. You may be able to estimate it with those numbers.

Or fill the keg with 2 quarts of water and push out as much as it allows you to, then measure the volume that's left. ;)
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Thanks! ...yeah I was going to look that up eventually ... if the results of using a shorter tube seem to work for me, thought was to measure the sediment of my typical batch and put that much water into the bottom and lower a tube until it touched the water and see how much tube stays above the corny post connector and trim that much off the bottom. And I would just designate two or three to make the modification to to be my dedicated ferms
 
Cider Wraith said:
and trim that much off the bottom
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I think you'd be better off cutting a slit at that height, about a third to halfway through the diptube. Reason being the inflow would be horizontal, creating less turbulence and suction from underneath where the trub is.

A sawed-off diptube will suck from the bottom. One can get away with that for most beer as the yeast/trub cake tends to be fairly dense (cold break proteins and such), but with ciders that sediment cake can be a lot looser.
 
Another idea.
If you cut the slit at a somewhat conservative height since you can't predict how much trub will be present, there's a good chance you may be leaving too much liquid (cider/beer/etc.) behind.
When getting toward the end of your transfer, tilt the keg toward the liquid dip tube side, by putting a wedge or a piece of wood underneath the gas post side. That allows you to transfer another 8-12 oz., perhaps more. When tilting, even slowly and carefully, the trub cake will slide a tad too, along with the liquid, but still not reach the slit.

I've been doing the tilting (using a bucket) and lowering the racking cane, as the beer recedes, with beer transfers for years, and can transfer close to 100% without trub/yeast. The few times when I get a little too greedy, once I see cloudy beer appear in the top of the transfer tube, I have a few seconds to pull the QD off the receiving keg. My hand is on it, collar disengaged, ready to pull it.
 
... for any that remain interested in this topic

Thought I'd try a quick test with the newly acquired odd-sized tube - glad I did. Now, in the future I can customize tubes in whatever way, but wanted to get this new tube into service today .....

First, discovered that the distance from the top of the threaded post to the bottom of the vessel on a FIRESTONE CHALLENGER VI is different by about an inch compared to a single-handle AEB - the distance on the FIRESTONE is about an inch greater. Gently installed the new tube on an AEB and reached in and the clearance to the bottom was the width of a finger ... so thought that might not be quiet enough. But I had remembered doing the same check on the FIRESTONE and it was oddly greater. Ah, I thought, the FIRESTONE's got about the right distance. Then I thought let's do a water test and confirm. See below ...

So the distance from the tube to the bottom on a FIRESTONE seemed like a maybe a little over an inch. So installed tube and added water until the surface touched the tube, and checked the differential. Looks like that newly acquired odd tube in a CHALLENGER VI loses about 27 ounces of product, I'm thinking that's too much to sacrifice. Will try the tube in an AEB as a fermenter and see what happens. So if the distance from tube to bottom is about the width of a finger that's what, about 7/8 inch, so how much product would that leave?

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IslandLizard said:
Another idea.
If you cut the slit at a somewhat conservative height since you can't predict how much trub will be present, there's a good chance you may be leaving too much liquid (cider/beer/etc.) behind.
When getting toward the end of your transfer, tilt the keg toward the liquid dip tube side, by putting a wedge or a piece of wood underneath the gas post side. That allows you to transfer another 8-12 oz., perhaps more. When tilting, even slowly and carefully, the trub cake will slide a tad too, along with the liquid, but still not reach the slit.

I've been doing the tilting (using a bucket) and lowering the racking cane, as the beer recedes, with beer transfers for years, and can transfer close to 100% without trub/yeast. The few times when I get a little too greedy, once I see cloudy beer appear in the top of the transfer tube, I have a few seconds to pull the QD off the receiving keg. My hand is on it, collar disengaged, ready to pull it.
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Yeah, totally with you, I do the same type of stuff - cool

EDIT - because this oddly slightly short tube just showed up two days ago I want to begin experimenting with it ... but, something you wrote a few posts ago was great - if wanting to have it perform as a longer tube, just slip on a piece of plastic line and can extend it 1/2 or 3/4 in or whatever, and then have it back shorter again by removing that
 
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Preliminary observations seem to point to a slightly shorter draw tube being up there with the invention of the Flying Machine ... it works -

Initially intended to do draw-to-draw tube transfer but experienced multiple odd hydraulic connection failures as a result of not having the right ID tubing so switched to a hybrid connection of shortened tube with gravity and kegged 3.5 gals of tart cherry. But as hoped, the draw from the ferm corny was done using the slightly shorter dip tube .... nice not having to hold that racking cane though the whole transfer

What a success it appears to be. Didn't leave as much liquid in the ferm corny as imagined. Could have gotten more usable beverage but not complaining. Looks like a good compromise and resulted in a serving corny of all clear and ready to refrigerate cider. Finally, threw in more apple/mixed on top of the yeast in the ferm to repurpose

The process can only improve - Thanks for thoughts and feedback.

Shortened dip tube? Tremendous outcome

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Looks like you're happy with the dip tube, but just FYI, I have run at least a dozen kegs using a floating dip tubes and love them. Drawing from the top let's you have the first glass without sediment and they do a good job draining the keg. I also have no issues pressure transferring through the floating tube.
 
... can't imagine anyone is still reading - ain't pretty but there's purging serving ... surprisingly got enough pressure in serving to have bubbles return in just a minute or so

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Bassman2003 said:
I will start by saying, the professional or time tested proper way to make fermented beverages is to remove all sediment throughout the process. Hands down, this is the best way to make these beverages.
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This. However you do it, this

Two ciders refigerated and served directly in corny fermenters with full-sized dips. Cold and motion free. Initial pour, highly sediment charged. Remainder of the pours that day, clear. Following day, sediment blast just like the first pour, then clear. Day after that, sediment blast just like the first pour

Sediment is resettling ... sediment can't be in serving :no:
 
End of a long day went to pour a few ounces and got the usual "next day" sediment blast. As glass was filling, in small fractions of a second, thinking like, dang, what do I do? ... just fill up the glass with the sediment and drink it, or stop, or what? Got a sizable sediment blast so wound up pouring out maybe four ounces of good drink. Another four ounces of good drink lost

Maybe someone, someday will find this useful. Note -

For ciders (at least), with fine sediment in serving, the sediment continues to resettle, resettle, resettle, resettle and apparently will do so until there are pints of wasted beverage. And, although I wish all possible good fortune to the Church of the Floaters that floater is eventually going to crash into the sediment

Sediment simply must be proactively eliminated.

Thanks again @Bassman2003 & @Murph4231
 
If you have a lot of sediment, it sounds like you might benefit from some more time or a 2nd vessel. Seems like a process could be created to get it clear before you are serving/drinking.
 
I don't think I have an unusually large amount of sediment.... I think my ferments create an unusually small amount of sediment... it's just that cider sediment is highly subject to resettling .... seems to be completely resettling overnight

EDIT - but serving in the ferm was just a goofy effort... won't do it again... and I can report that what's going to work is a slightly trimmed dip in fermenter to be used to transfer to a serving ... kind folks, there's just no way around dip trimming and transfer out of ferm to serv
 
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... fun stuff - nothing new here just a journal type entry ...

This started out as an experiment and the results are in - at least for ciders as I make them it's been observed that as a keg is served sediment will continue to resettle around the dip tube. This tulip glass (which looks larger than it is) was poured halfway three days ago and received the usual "first pour of-the-day blast". Rather than throw it out, put into the fridge to settle

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This morning poured contents off the sediment. What observation shows is that if a few ounces are poured one time each day the same amount of sediment will be produced each day until either the sediment is eliminated from the keg or the keg is emptied of liquid. So cider sediment is efficiently resettling around the dip tube again and again and again. That's the answer to the original goofy experiment

Floating dip tube? Sure, great. However seems to me, you're just choosing to get your sediment hit at the end and not every day you pour. But, if it can be done, I'd rather eliminate original fermentation sediment, and it can be done. I wouldn't deceive myself and expect that if doing a transfer from ferm to serving and letting it sit for six months that there still wouldn't be some additional settling - some yes, but not a mountain, not a blast with every "first pour of-the-day", and it wouldn't be the original fermentation sediment. Finally, I worry about what would happen to a flexible dip tube left in an alcohol based beverage for half a year. Would it lose flexibility and become frozen into position? Could it kink? Could the float fail? Could a synthetic material leach into the beverage? And anyway, sooner or later it's going to crash into the sediment

Plan is to designate two kegs to be fermenters. Received these two relatively rough condition cornys six years ago (and they're the only two this color). And as a testament to how well these vessels are made, one of these has a noticeably bent post and at the time the post was bent the dip tube was also bent

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So two cornys ferms, one with an already bent dip I'll trim, and heck, dips are only $20 so it's not the end of the world whatever happens. Thinking I'll start at about 3/8" and there'll be experimentation to find the compromise length. And what works for what I typically make might not work for someone else. Then of course do @Bassman2003 's procedure transferring out of ferm to serv - which will be my procedure here forward. Then I'd have a conventionally configured corny, without the fermentation based sediment, nothing unpredictable that could fail, ready to consume or store

....thanks everyone for previous replies and insights -
 
And what happens to the sediment compaction if you let the ferm and serve keg sit, cold, for 6-8 weeks before serving at all?
 
Good question. In an earlier post I asked what effect would time and temperature have? And, for those that use different types of ingredients including hops, does that contribute to the sediment "setting up"?
 
As i understand it, there's floc-ability and compactability, two different things, with yeast.
The first is how well it falls out when finished fermenting and the second is how tightly it'll adhere to itself once fallen out. Most of the powdery strains are not good at either. But time does wonders, and colder temp helps.
 
@Cider Wraith How much cider is left in your keg at the point you're drawing sediment? I have to ask, "how far are you willing to go to get that last pour?" Personally I'm beer only, and I have several kegs going at once, so when one of my kegs gets down under a pint or so, trying to squeeze out every last drop of clear nectar is just not worth it to me if I have to take extreme measures to get it. Now with that said, most times when I get to that point and I open up the keg I'm quite surprised to find very little beer left inside. But if any I call it the cost of doing business. I brew, so I'll just brew more. Don't get me wrong, I want sediment-free beer for as long as I can get it.....but without worrying too much about the getting the very last drop of clear beer out of my keg.

* I just read @balrog post about the type of yeast and how it flocs out. Makes sense. I don't know anything about yeast used for ciders so my post may be irrelevant to the last few posts.
 
... as always appreciative of comments ...

Dang it, what a numbskull, did the exact same thing again ...

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.... and if anyone is still reading the FYI the keg kicked while fire-hosing out sediment ... everything is different over space and time but in this case liquid was exhausted before it could transport out all the sediment

EDIT - after settling for two hours, yowza -

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EDIT - swinging by Lowes tomorrow for a miniature pipe cutter ;)
 
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